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Problem with ADT Security Company

I first installed my ADT Secruity in 1998, and I signed a two years
contract for it. It was working fine these years, until I have a
contractor replaced the windows of my house. The contractor who worked
on my windows cut the wires off the security system, and I tried to
call the ADT Technician to come over to reconnect the sensors back to
my new windows. The technician come over for an esitimate, he told me
that there would be a 3 hours work, and the first half hour would be
$120.00, and thereafter, $30.00 for each 15 minutes. Thus, I have to
pay $25.00 trip charge and those sensors have to be purchased again
from them, and each of the sensors will be charged for $15.00.

My godness, they have a deal for the new customer, $99.00 for
installation with 2 years contract. For our old good customer, they
won't give us any advantage on it, but try to earn some money from us.
I think that $505.00 is not worth to spend for reconnected the system.
Therefore, I called the ADT representative for cancel the alarm
service. Their representative told me that I have signed another 4
years contract for it. I swear that I didn't sign any contract except
the first one I signed on 1998. I asked the representative a copy of
the contract, there is a name written down there but not my signature.
I called them back and told them that's not my signature, now they said
that they have to send me another package to deny the contract.

It's really a nightmare for me. Is there anyone who used to be in the
same situation, and can give me advise on it. Your help with this
matter is greatly appreciated!


Thank you in adanve for your reply,


Cindy Choy
 
R

R.H.Campbell

Jan 1, 1970
0
The first contract you signed in 1998 likely had a renewal clause that
automatically renewed the contract for the same period of time once again
unless you took action sometime just prior to the end of the contract to
advise them (usually in writing) that you wish to cease dealing with them.
Check your original contract to see it this is the case. If it is, you are
likely stuck, and will have to buy the balance of the contract out.

This kind of thing is a clear example of how many companies abuse this long
term contract business. The first contract was entirely legitimate since you
were buying into the phony "free system" concept, and they make up the REAL
cost of the equipment and original labour in the inflated monitoring rate
over a guarantee term of so many months. However, hooking you into another
term simply because you failed to take action at the end of the original
term, while quite common in this industry, is certainly "opportunistic", and
borders on unethical business practices (IMO).

It always pays to remember, there is no free lunch. While these kinds of
companies make it easy to buy in, the cost of just about everything after
that is usually excessive. And this generally applies no matter which
company you are dealing with that markets this way.

Remember this experience and let it guide your actions when you choose
another alarm company....

R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Most contracts I've seen only renew for one year periods after the initial
term...I "believe" even ADT's is the same way.

A fair price for that work would be abt 200 bucks or so, plus contacts @ 5
bucks each (unless they're Pella type windows...then I charge more).

My guess is she has a contract that is not enforcable if it doesn't have a
valid signature on it.



| The first contract you signed in 1998 likely had a renewal clause that
| automatically renewed the contract for the same period of time once again
| unless you took action sometime just prior to the end of the contract to
| advise them (usually in writing) that you wish to cease dealing with them.
| Check your original contract to see it this is the case. If it is, you are
| likely stuck, and will have to buy the balance of the contract out.
|
| This kind of thing is a clear example of how many companies abuse this
long
| term contract business. The first contract was entirely legitimate since
you
| were buying into the phony "free system" concept, and they make up the
REAL
| cost of the equipment and original labour in the inflated monitoring rate
| over a guarantee term of so many months. However, hooking you into another
| term simply because you failed to take action at the end of the original
| term, while quite common in this industry, is certainly "opportunistic",
and
| borders on unethical business practices (IMO).
|
| It always pays to remember, there is no free lunch. While these kinds of
| companies make it easy to buy in, the cost of just about everything after
| that is usually excessive. And this generally applies no matter which
| company you are dealing with that markets this way.
|
| Remember this experience and let it guide your actions when you choose
| another alarm company....
|
| R.H.Campbell
| Home Security Metal Products
| Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
| www.homemetal.com
|
| | >I first installed my ADT Secruity in 1998, and I signed a two years
| > contract for it. It was working fine these years, until I have a
| > contractor replaced the windows of my house. The contractor who worked
| > on my windows cut the wires off the security system, and I tried to
| > call the ADT Technician to come over to reconnect the sensors back to
| > my new windows. The technician come over for an esitimate, he told me
| > that there would be a 3 hours work, and the first half hour would be
| > $120.00, and thereafter, $30.00 for each 15 minutes. Thus, I have to
| > pay $25.00 trip charge and those sensors have to be purchased again
| > from them, and each of the sensors will be charged for $15.00.
| >
| > My godness, they have a deal for the new customer, $99.00 for
| > installation with 2 years contract. For our old good customer, they
| > won't give us any advantage on it, but try to earn some money from us.
| > I think that $505.00 is not worth to spend for reconnected the system.
| > Therefore, I called the ADT representative for cancel the alarm
| > service. Their representative told me that I have signed another 4
| > years contract for it. I swear that I didn't sign any contract except
| > the first one I signed on 1998. I asked the representative a copy of
| > the contract, there is a name written down there but not my signature.
| > I called them back and told them that's not my signature, now they said
| > that they have to send me another package to deny the contract.
| >
| > It's really a nightmare for me. Is there anyone who used to be in the
| > same situation, and can give me advise on it. Your help with this
| > matter is greatly appreciated!
| >
| >
| > Thank you in adanve for your reply,
| >
| >
| > Cindy Choy
| >
|
|
|
 
R

R.H.Campbell

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm kinda intrigued by this "package" they have to send her to "deny the
contract". If I were her, I'd sure as hell read that "package" really
carefully before I signed anything else.

RHC
 
M

mikey

Jan 1, 1970
0
Unethical? Whoa, you're out to lunch here, Bob... your month to month
contract auto renews each month, what's the difference?
 
A

alarman

Jan 1, 1970
0
I first installed my ADT Secruity in 1998, and I signed a two years
contract for it. It was working fine these years, until I have a
contractor replaced the windows of my house. The contractor who worked
on my windows cut the wires off the security system, and I tried to
call the ADT Technician to come over to reconnect the sensors back to
my new windows. The technician come over for an esitimate, he told me
that there would be a 3 hours work, and the first half hour would be
$120.00, and thereafter, $30.00 for each 15 minutes. Thus, I have to
pay $25.00 trip charge and those sensors have to be purchased again
from them, and each of the sensors will be charged for $15.00.

My godness, they have a deal for the new customer, $99.00 for
installation with 2 years contract. For our old good customer, they
won't give us any advantage on it, but try to earn some money from us.
I think that $505.00 is not worth to spend for reconnected the system.
Therefore, I called the ADT representative for cancel the alarm
service. Their representative told me that I have signed another 4
years contract for it. I swear that I didn't sign any contract except
the first one I signed on 1998. I asked the representative a copy of
the contract, there is a name written down there but not my signature.
I called them back and told them that's not my signature, now they said
that they have to send me another package to deny the contract.

It's really a nightmare for me. Is there anyone who used to be in the
same situation, and can give me advise on it. Your help with this
matter is greatly appreciated!

The $99 you paid was a come-on to get you to sign up. HELLO? ADT simply
wants your monthly monitoring revenue, and doesn't wish to be bothered with
working on your system. Certainly not for $99. You can not cancel the
contract just because you think their rates are too high, and it's not ADT's
fault you got new windows and the contractor was careless. Wake up, people.
Jeez.
js
 
N

Nomen Nescio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Crash Gordon said:
A fair price for that work would be abt 200 bucks or so, plus contacts @ 5
bucks each (unless they're Pella type windows...then I charge more).

Since the original poster didn't even say how many windows he had replaced,
how in the hell do you come up with a "fair price" for this job?

- badenov
 
R

R.H.Campbell

Jan 1, 1970
0
BIG difference there Mike, certainly not in structure, but in INTENT and
AFFECT !

First off, with a month to month contract, the client can leave whenever he
wants, because a month is not an undue period of time to lock someone in (if
that could even be considered being locked in). This period co-incides with
his standard industry monthly billing and is no different than most other
kinds of service billing (calculated monthly however actually billed). The
customer knows up front, and it's only common sense, that the contract
continues month over month to coincide with his billing. But the customer
still remains "in the driver's seat" so to speak at all times, with full
freedom to choose his own ongoing destiny. And the customer knows we must
continue to earn his ongoing business, not demand it through a long term
committment !

However, with an auto renewal long term contract for 1 to 5 years, the
customer becomes locked in for a second (and perhaps third) time, because he
or she didn't take some positive action to stop the renewal. This second
long term is not being used to pay for the "free system" anymore, but to
simply lock in the client's revenue stream for an undue length of time to
benefit ONLY the alarmco. There is NOTHING of value or benefit to doing so
for the client !! And in so doing, the client has lost his freedom to move,
shop around, or cease the service without paying out a substantial sum of
money.

THAT my friend is a HUGE difference ! It's a lot like "negative option
selling" that Rogers got so badly mauled for recently. Most customer hardly
remember what kind of system they have, let alone when a multi year contract
is coming up for renewal !!!!! Yet if they don't, they're committed. It's
the same sort of bulls*it that Alarmbridge pulls here locally with their
hidden small print stating that the client must advise in writing three full
months in advance of the desire to stop monitoring, or the contract
auto-renews for another full five years.

You buy a cellphone with a contract; after the term is up, you go month to
month. Although it's not a perfect analogy, if you buy or lease a vehicle,
you either own it outright eventually, or if leased, you turn it back in at
the end of the term. Your dealer doesn't hit you with another term if you
forget to call him up. If you sign a long term natural gas contract, BOTH
sides are committed to a certain rate for a given length of time. Neither
can change that rate. But alarmco's see fit to raise their rates sometimes
annually based on a "cost of living" increase, and the consumer has no
realistic option to act if he doesn't agree with it.

It seems only in the alarm industry do we get away with this lopsided sh*t
because for some reason, consumers let us do so !! Beats the hell out of me
why !!

Unethical ? You're damn right !

RHC
 
M

Mark Leuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
R.H.Campbell said:
BIG difference there Mike, certainly not in structure, but in INTENT and
AFFECT !

First off, with a month to month contract, the client can leave whenever he
wants, because a month is not an undue period of time to lock someone in (if
that could even be considered being locked in). This period co-incides with
his standard industry monthly billing and is no different than most other
kinds of service billing (calculated monthly however actually billed). The
customer knows up front, and it's only common sense, that the contract
continues month over month to coincide with his billing. But the customer
still remains "in the driver's seat" so to speak at all times, with full
freedom to choose his own ongoing destiny. And the customer knows we must
continue to earn his ongoing business, not demand it through a long term
committment !

However, with an auto renewal long term contract for 1 to 5 years, the
customer becomes locked in for a second (and perhaps third) time, because he
or she didn't take some positive action to stop the renewal. This second
long term is not being used to pay for the "free system" anymore, but to
simply lock in the client's revenue stream for an undue length of time to
benefit ONLY the alarmco. There is NOTHING of value or benefit to doing so
for the client !! And in so doing, the client has lost his freedom to move,
shop around, or cease the service without paying out a substantial sum of
money.

I would normally agree with you on parts of this RH but even with a 5 year
agreement the customer can also cancel if he gives a 1 month notice after
the contract finishes
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
I thought she said; 3 hours


| Crash Gordon said:
|
| >A fair price for that work would be abt 200 bucks or so, plus contacts @
5
| >bucks each (unless they're Pella type windows...then I charge more).
|
| Since the original poster didn't even say how many windows he had
replaced,
| how in the hell do you come up with a "fair price" for this job?
|
| - badenov
|
|
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
It wouldn't look good...but it'll never get that far.


| Imagine how a forged contract would look in court.
|
| Shaun Eli
| www.BrainChampagne.com
| Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smart Mind (sm)
|
|
 
R

R.H.Campbell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mark, normally what seems to happen in most cases is the client after the
first contract has expired, goes on a month to month basis. Then the client
remains on month to month indefinately. Then as you say, the client can
terminate with a months notice. My only objection is some companies (a
minority thankfully) don't operate this way; instead, they continue to
duplicate the original term once again unless the client takes positive
action, needlessly locking the client in to another long term.

That's what I'm suggesting is not a legitimate way to operate

RHC
 
M

moe

Jan 1, 1970
0
that is written into the contract and if the prospective customer doesn't
want that "auto renewal" then all they have to do is not sign the contract.
Nobody forced anyone to sign a contract. But if you sign then you should
live up to what you agreed to do.
 
B

Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
You wanta bet that the contract probably came from an authorized dealer who
changed some things before it went to ADT. Most all of these programs have
had their share of bogus contracts coming in and by the time the mother
company finds out, the authorized dealer is gone. When Westinghouse first
started their program, they got hit by a guy writing contracts right out of
the telephone book and sending signals from a panel in his office by simply
changing the account number. By the time they figured out no one was paying
and stopped by to visit him at his office, there was nothing but empty
space. Got em for a ton.
 
R

R.H.Campbell

Jan 1, 1970
0
True enough on the surface for sure. However, how many salespeople tell the
client about this little clause when they first sign the contract ?
Realistically, none. And how many people read each and every word of any
contract they sign before they sign it ? Again, almost none ! Hell, I can't
even get them to read my standard one page agreement !! Most people still
deal with companies and each other from a basis of trust, and unless
prompted otherwise, will go on that basis. And we of all people should be
trusted; after all, the client is trusting us with his security !

Business contracts should not be set up with automatic "traps" for people
signing them. If the company told the client up front about this, and the
client was stupid enough to sign off on it (by initialling the clause or
some such thing), then obviously it would be acceptable. But to sneak it in,
as some companies do for the express purpose of limiting the clients
options, is unacceptable.

But if the client is stupid enough to agree to this KNOWINGLY, then he will
be held to it (unless the law itself gives him some sort of relief on this
point)

RHC
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Could be...


| You wanta bet that the contract probably came from an authorized dealer
who
| changed some things before it went to ADT. Most all of these programs have
| had their share of bogus contracts coming in and by the time the mother
| company finds out, the authorized dealer is gone. When Westinghouse first
| started their program, they got hit by a guy writing contracts right out
of
| the telephone book and sending signals from a panel in his office by
simply
| changing the account number. By the time they figured out no one was
paying
| and stopped by to visit him at his office, there was nothing but empty
| space. Got em for a ton.
|
| | > Imagine how a forged contract would look in court.
| >
| > Shaun Eli
| > www.BrainChampagne.com
| > Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smart Mind (sm)
| >
|
|
 
B

Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
R.H.Campbell said:
However, with an auto renewal long term contract for 1 to 5 years, the
customer becomes locked in for a second (and perhaps third) time, because he
or she didn't take some positive action to stop the renewal. This second
long term is not being used to pay for the "free system" anymore, but to
simply lock in the client's revenue stream for an undue length of time to
benefit ONLY the alarmco.

Not to question your business plan, but that is when the alarm company, that
has the "free" marketing approach, finally starts to make some profit. The
rate doesn't drop because, instead of paying off upfront costs which they
are doing during the first term, they are making up the profit that was not
there during the first term.

There is NOTHING of value or benefit to doing so
for the client !!

Sure there is. A client that signed on with me in 1999 is paying far less
than the customer that signs up today. If a client did not agree to have the
auto renewal, which I have some, and wants to continue using us as their
security provider after their agreement expires, then I go out and sign them
to a new agreement at today's rate, so now they are paying more than if they
had simply let it renew at the old rate.

Most customer hardly
remember what kind of system they have, let alone when a multi year contract
is coming up for renewal !!!!!

No, they believe what they have assumed, thought, someone else told them,
wished to be true, and any other reason they can come up with, anything
except for BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN AFFAIRS. The auto renewal clause
was in the agreement from day one. If they don't read anything else in an
agreement, they read the terms, where the clause is located, and they have
three business days to question, negotiate or strike the clause. To say they
don't remember is BS. I'll bet everyone of them can tell you the day their
last car payment is due right off the top of their head. It is called
responsiblity and in reality the only time it becomes a problem is when they
want out. All of sudden they come down with Alzheimer's.

Yet if they don't, they're committed. It's
the same sort of bulls*it that Alarmbridge pulls here locally with their
hidden small print stating that the client must advise in writing three full
months in advance of the desire to stop monitoring, or the contract
auto-renews for another full five years.

You buy a cellphone with a contract; after the term is up, you go month to
month.

We are not in the cell phone business.
Although it's not a perfect analogy, if you buy or lease a vehicle,
you either own it outright eventually, or if leased, you turn it back in at
the end of the term. Your dealer doesn't hit you with another term if you
forget to call him up.

No, it is worse, right down to grand theft auto and full cost of the value
of the vehicle.

If you sign a long term natural gas contract, BOTH
sides are committed to a certain rate for a given length of time. Neither
can change that rate. But alarmco's see fit to raise their rates sometimes
annually based on a "cost of living" increase, and the consumer has no
realistic option to act if he doesn't agree with it.

Bob, Bob, of course they do unless the provisions, ie cost of living, for
increases are clearly stated in the agreement, they orignally signed, and
there are usually caps on those. Do you think the cost of doing business is
the same in year one as it is in year three? Companies can't just throw out
increases at will because a customer will always have the opportunity to
either except or decline.
It seems only in the alarm industry do we get away with this lopsided sh*t
because for some reason, consumers let us do so !! Beats the hell out of me
why !!

Unethical ? You're damn right !

So you are saying that a 130 year old, multi Billion dollar industry,
involving all aspects of our life, has been built on unethical business
practices? The one constant that I can see in the business world is that all
business owners are free to choose their own business plan. Some choose to
be pioneers but the mass majority follow what has been the norm. With that
being said, the norm on the customers side is that they just claim to being
abused when they want out. I have never seen one of my customers, that are
paying 1995 monitoring rates because of auto renewal, come running to me and
say "Boy, you've been monitoring me for 10 years, you need to raise my
rate." They are as happy as clams just were they are at. They are reminded
of that everytime they see a Brinks or ADT advertisement showing that $30
plus monitoring fee.
 
B

Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
R.H.Campbell said:
Mark, normally what seems to happen in most cases is the client after the
first contract has expired, goes on a month to month basis. Then the client
remains on month to month indefinately. Then as you say, the client can
terminate with a months notice. My only objection is some companies (a
minority thankfully) don't operate this way; instead, they continue to
duplicate the original term once again unless the client takes positive
action, needlessly locking the client in to another long term.

That's what I'm suggesting is not a legitimate way to operate

Why do the courts uphold it if it is not legitimate? If it is a problem, it
can be changed legislatively, which has been done is some states to address
certain concerns. I don't think any state has stated that renewals are
illegal, unethical, not legitimate etc. I think any laws are written with
the understanding that the person entering into an agreement knows what they
are agreeing to and therefore should adhere to the terms. Lets not forget
that a business makes a plan, writes the terms and if the buyer agrees to
those terms, it is a legal binding document. I am not saying that I agree
with the hard lined attitude of some companies, but it is within there
right. Good customer service is well worth its weight in gold.
 
B

Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
So are you saying that because someone didn't read their agreement they
shouldn't be held accountable? I would be interested in seeing the judges
decission with that defense. I have reviewed many agreements for different
companies. I have a folder caulk full of agreements from my competitors. The
renewal clause is always in the terms. I have never seen one that had the
clause hidden somewhere else in the body of the agreement. If it were, then
and only then might a judge have a question about it.
 
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