Power mains question: wire gauge

Discussion in 'Misc Electronics' started by DaveC, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. DaveC

    Guest

    On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:44:47 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
    <> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    >wrote:
    >
    >> On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:02:19 -0800 (PST), Tom Horne
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >On Jan 13, 11:19 pm, wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> >Well I'm not interested in being quarrelsome but would you mind
    >> >> >explaining why you would use copper piping for air lines.  Copper has
    >> >> >gotten more pricy rather than recently pricey so it would seem to be
    >> >> >rather a waste to use it for air.  Help me out here.  What am I
    >> >> >missing?
    >> >>
    >> >> A reasonable alternative.
    >> >
    >> >I've seen the pipe fitters install hundreds of feet of black iron on
    >> >jobs with a lot of air in use such as assembly lines. What is wrong
    >> >with that? Is it too expensive to install to be cost effective? I
    >> >have been out of the big job work for over a decade now.

    >>
    >> Black iron is incredibly expensive and impossible to work with.

    >
    >I bet people are using Pex to carry air these days. Pex is displacing
    >copper pipe for residential water service as well. The plumber
    >installing Pex for part of my circulating hot water heating system
    >commented that if one bids straight copper, one does not win the job.


    I thought about using PEX, though wasn't sure if it could take the
    pressure. A faulty regulator can easily dump 120-200lbs into the
    system. At least it wouldn't shatter like PVC, though. It's an idea,
    though I think I already have about half the copper I need for the
    job. ..though that probably means I'm short 3/4. ;-)

    My other house has PEX for its water supply. I have no idea if the
    house is "normal" but I don't like the stuff. Only one of the outside
    faucets has any volume and the inside faucets are all weak. It seems
    there is a lot more pressure/volume lost in the distribution than
    there is in either the copper systems I've had in the past or the PVC
    in the new place. One big advantage of PEX for water is temperature
    stability (someone flushing a john doesn't scald the person taking a
    shower). Another is the manifold allows one to turn off individual
    appliances. It's handy for turning off the silcocks in the Winter,
    though I added ball valves to the distribution system (copper) in my
    VT house to accomplish pretty much the same thing.
     
    , Jan 14, 2013
    1. Advertisements

  2. DaveC

    Guest

    On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:35:53 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
    <> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    >wrote:
    >
    >> On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:44:47 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >In article <>,
    >> >wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:02:19 -0800 (PST), Tom Horne
    >> >> <> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> >On Jan 13, 11:19 pm, wrote:
    >> >> >
    >> >> >> >Well I'm not interested in being quarrelsome but would you mind
    >> >> >> >explaining why you would use copper piping for air lines.  Copper has
    >> >> >> >gotten more pricy rather than recently pricey so it would seem to be
    >> >> >> >rather a waste to use it for air.  Help me out here.  What am I
    >> >> >> >missing?
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> A reasonable alternative.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >I've seen the pipe fitters install hundreds of feet of black iron on
    >> >> >jobs with a lot of air in use such as assembly lines. What is wrong
    >> >> >with that? Is it too expensive to install to be cost effective? I
    >> >> >have been out of the big job work for over a decade now.
    >> >>
    >> >> Black iron is incredibly expensive and impossible to work with.
    >> >
    >> >I bet people are using Pex to carry air these days. Pex is displacing
    >> >copper pipe for residential water service as well. The plumber
    >> >installing Pex for part of my circulating hot water heating system
    >> >commented that if one bids straight copper, one does not win the job.

    >>
    >> I thought about using PEX, though wasn't sure if it could take the
    >> pressure. A faulty regulator can easily dump 120-200lbs into the
    >> system. At least it wouldn't shatter like PVC, though. It's an idea,
    >> though I think I already have about half the copper I need for the
    >> job. ..though that probably means I'm short 3/4. ;-)

    >
    >Here is some PEX data:
    ><http://www.pexuniverse.com/pex-tubing-technical-specs>
    >
    >At 74 F, the rating is 160 psi. The installation proof test is 1.5
    >times that, or 240 psi. That ought to work.
    >
    >As for broken regulators, if it's a real problem, I would add a simple
    >overpressure relief valve to handle regulator blowout, protecting more
    >than just the tubing.


    Depending on the result, it might be something to worry about. With
    copper, not so much. PEX probably not, either, but it's failure mode
    would be important. PVC, absolutely!

    >> My other house has PEX for its water supply. I have no idea if the
    >> house is "normal" but I don't like the stuff. Only one of the outside
    >> faucets has any volume and the inside faucets are all weak. It seems
    >> there is a lot more pressure/volume lost in the distribution than
    >> there is in either the copper systems I've had in the past or the PVC
    >> in the new place. One big advantage of PEX for water is temperature
    >> stability (someone flushing a john doesn't scald the person taking a
    >> shower). Another is the manifold allows one to turn off individual
    >> appliances. It's handy for turning off the silcocks in the Winter,
    >> though I added ball valves to the distribution system (copper) in my
    >> VT house to accomplish pretty much the same thing.

    >
    >Sounds like the installer cheaped out and used too small a diameter of
    >tubing/pipe. This never happens with copper pipe. Never....


    I've never seen anything less than 3/4" and 1/2" in homes. Sure, I've
    seen problems with temperature regulation when they cheaped out but
    never a supply problem. Even 1/2" was plenty for a hose bib or a
    kitchen sink. ISTM, that PEX has a *lot* more resistance than copper.
     
    , Jan 15, 2013
    1. Advertisements

  3. DaveC

    rickman Guest

    On 1/14/2013 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
    >
    > I bet people are using Pex to carry air these days. Pex is displacing
    > copper pipe for residential water service as well. The plumber
    > installing Pex for part of my circulating hot water heating system
    > commented that if one bids straight copper, one does not win the job.


    The Romans used lead to carry their water and as a result some developed
    lead poisoning. Plastic is the new lead.

    Rick
     
    rickman, Jan 16, 2013
  4. DaveC

    Guest

    On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:19:25 -0500, rickman <> wrote:

    >On 1/14/2013 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
    >>
    >> I bet people are using Pex to carry air these days. Pex is displacing
    >> copper pipe for residential water service as well. The plumber
    >> installing Pex for part of my circulating hot water heating system
    >> commented that if one bids straight copper, one does not win the job.

    >
    >The Romans used lead to carry their water and as a result some developed
    >lead poisoning. Plastic is the new lead.


    Utter nonsense. I'd expect as much, though.
     
    , Jan 17, 2013
  5. DaveC

    Jasen Betts Guest

    On 2013-01-18, Joseph Gwinn <> wrote:

    >> I've never seen anything less than 3/4" and 1/2" in homes. Sure, I've
    >> seen problems with temperature regulation when they cheaped out but
    >> never a supply problem. Even 1/2" was plenty for a hose bib or a
    >> kitchen sink. ISTM, that PEX has a *lot* more resistance than copper.

    >
    > The inside of PEX is just as smooth as the inside of copper pipe, and
    > there are usually fewer ells needed with PEX (or copper tubing for that
    > matter). Something else is the matter.


    looking on the internet I see lots of installations with what appears
    to be very fine PEX tubing.

    --
    ⚂⚃ 100% natural

    --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
     
    Jasen Betts, Jan 18, 2013
  6. DaveC

    rickman Guest

    On 1/15/2013 12:47 PM, wrote:
    >
    > I've never seen anything less than 3/4" and 1/2" in homes. Sure, I've
    > seen problems with temperature regulation when they cheaped out but
    > never a supply problem. Even 1/2" was plenty for a hose bib or a
    > kitchen sink. ISTM, that PEX has a *lot* more resistance than copper.


    Just to be sure, I pulled out an ohm meter to check it and yup, you're
    right, PEX has a *lot* more resistance than copper.

    Rick
     
    rickman, Jan 19, 2013
  7. DaveC

    Guest

    On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:22:34 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
    <> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    >wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:35:53 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >In article <>,
    >> >wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:44:47 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
    >> >> <> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> >In article <>,
    >> >> >wrote:
    >> >> >
    >> >> >> On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:02:19 -0800 (PST), Tom Horne
    >> >> >> <> wrote:
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> >On Jan 13, 11:19 pm, wrote:
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> >> >Well I'm not interested in being quarrelsome but would you mind
    >> >> >> >> >explaining why you would use copper piping for air lines.  Copper
    >> >> >> >> >has
    >> >> >> >> >gotten more pricy rather than recently pricey so it would seem to
    >> >> >> >> >be
    >> >> >> >> >rather a waste to use it for air.  Help me out here.  What am I
    >> >> >> >> >missing?
    >> >> >> >>
    >> >> >> >> A reasonable alternative.
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> >I've seen the pipe fitters install hundreds of feet of black iron on
    >> >> >> >jobs with a lot of air in use such as assembly lines. What is wrong
    >> >> >> >with that? Is it too expensive to install to be cost effective? I
    >> >> >> >have been out of the big job work for over a decade now.
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> Black iron is incredibly expensive and impossible to work with.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >I bet people are using Pex to carry air these days. Pex is displacing
    >> >> >copper pipe for residential water service as well. The plumber
    >> >> >installing Pex for part of my circulating hot water heating system
    >> >> >commented that if one bids straight copper, one does not win the job.
    >> >>
    >> >> I thought about using PEX, though wasn't sure if it could take the
    >> >> pressure. A faulty regulator can easily dump 120-200lbs into the
    >> >> system. At least it wouldn't shatter like PVC, though. It's an idea,
    >> >> though I think I already have about half the copper I need for the
    >> >> job. ..though that probably means I'm short 3/4. ;-)
    >> >
    >> >Here is some PEX data:
    >> ><http://www.pexuniverse.com/pex-tubing-technical-specs>
    >> >
    >> >At 74 F, the rating is 160 psi. The installation proof test is 1.5
    >> >times that, or 240 psi. That ought to work.
    >> >
    >> >As for broken regulators, if it's a real problem, I would add a simple
    >> >overpressure relief valve to handle regulator blowout, protecting more
    >> >than just the tubing.

    >>
    >> Depending on the result, it might be something to worry about. With
    >> copper, not so much. PEX probably not, either, but it's failure mode
    >> would be important. PVC, absolutely!
    >>
    >> >> My other house has PEX for its water supply. I have no idea if the
    >> >> house is "normal" but I don't like the stuff. Only one of the outside
    >> >> faucets has any volume and the inside faucets are all weak. It seems
    >> >> there is a lot more pressure/volume lost in the distribution than
    >> >> there is in either the copper systems I've had in the past or the PVC
    >> >> in the new place. One big advantage of PEX for water is temperature
    >> >> stability (someone flushing a john doesn't scald the person taking a
    >> >> shower). Another is the manifold allows one to turn off individual
    >> >> appliances. It's handy for turning off the silcocks in the Winter,
    >> >> though I added ball valves to the distribution system (copper) in my
    >> >> VT house to accomplish pretty much the same thing.
    >> >
    >> >Sounds like the installer cheaped out and used too small a diameter of
    >> >tubing/pipe. This never happens with copper pipe. Never....

    >>
    >> I've never seen anything less than 3/4" and 1/2" in homes. Sure, I've
    >> seen problems with temperature regulation when they cheaped out but
    >> never a supply problem. Even 1/2" was plenty for a hose bib or a
    >> kitchen sink. ISTM, that PEX has a *lot* more resistance than copper.

    >
    >The inside of PEX is just as smooth as the inside of copper pipe, and
    >there are usually fewer ells needed with PEX (or copper tubing for that
    >matter). Something else is the matter.


    There are NO straight runs, either. Anyway, from my experience, it
    sucks for water distribution. I'm not all that happy with the PVC I
    have now, either. Copper is so easy...
     
    , Jan 19, 2013
  8. DaveC

    Guest

    On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 22:51:06 -0500, rickman <> wrote:

    >On 1/15/2013 12:47 PM, wrote:
    >>
    >> I've never seen anything less than 3/4" and 1/2" in homes. Sure, I've
    >> seen problems with temperature regulation when they cheaped out but
    >> never a supply problem. Even 1/2" was plenty for a hose bib or a
    >> kitchen sink. ISTM, that PEX has a *lot* more resistance than copper.

    >
    >Just to be sure, I pulled out an ohm meter to check it and yup, you're
    >right, PEX has a *lot* more resistance than copper.


    ;-)
     
    , Jan 20, 2013
    1. Advertisements

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.
Similar Threads
  1. Bill  Hansen

    WANTED - - Wire Measurer -or- Wire Meter -or- Wire Counter

    Bill Hansen, Aug 21, 2004, in forum: General Electronics
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    1,268
    Bill Hansen
    Aug 21, 2004
  2. 2.com
    Replies:
    6
    Views:
    1,169
    2.com
    Feb 15, 2005
  3. Gary Helfert

    Converting wire wire diameter to gauge size?

    Gary Helfert, Aug 22, 2005, in forum: Electronic Basics
    Replies:
    6
    Views:
    1,366
    Bob Myers
    Aug 26, 2005
  4. DaveC

    Power mains question: wire gauge

    DaveC, Dec 28, 2012, in forum: Electrical Engineering
    Replies:
    19
    Views:
    2,749
    rickman
    Dec 30, 2012
  5. DaveC

    Power mains question: wire gauge

    DaveC, Dec 28, 2012, in forum: Electronic Design
    Replies:
    154
    Views:
    2,340
  6. CJR

    Stranded Wire vs Solid wire(22 gauge)

    CJR, Feb 9, 2013, in forum: Electronic Projects
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    870
    CocaCola
    Feb 9, 2013
  7. dietermoreno
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    966
    john monks
    Mar 22, 2013
  8. Jimbo bob

    The gauge factor of a strain gauge

    Jimbo bob, Oct 9, 2014, in forum: General Electronics Chat
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    808
    Jimbo bob
    Oct 10, 2014
Loading...