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Parallel generators

S

Sudy Nim

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is it possible to run two portable generators in parallel?
 
B

Bruce in Alaska

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sudy Nim said:
Is it possible to run two portable generators in parallel?

Yep, we do it ALL the time. All it takes is a BIG Pile of Money
to modify the gensets with Electronic Governers, and install
the REQUIRED SwitchGear, and your all set......

or you could buy yourself a couple of Honda Inverter/Gensets
and the Parallel Cable Kit and do it that way with those
specific Gensets.....

Bruce in alaska
 
S

Sudy Nim

Jan 1, 1970
0
<snip>

Thanks Bruce in Alaska & Ulysses for your replies. I chased electrons in TVs
and other stuff until I (forcedly) retired 15 years ago. House wiring I know
that the white wire connects to white and black to black. In general I
understand what you are saying but have no experience in it so I'm lost.
Could you point me to someplace to get a little info? I realize that two
generators need to be timed together and of equal output and balanced in
some way. If it were too expensive or complicated I would just take a pass
to something simpler.

I live in a rural area (way) outside Chicago and have a private well for my
water source. Being a stepchild to any town, I experience power outages
randomly several times a year and purchased a Generac 4000exl, which serves
all my needs except for air conditioning on occasional hot humid summer
nights. So I'm pondering to either buy a larger generator, an additional one
or live with what I got.
 
S

sylvan butler

Jan 1, 1970
0
Could you point me to someplace to get a little info? I realize that two
generators need to be timed together and of equal output and balanced in
some way. If it were too expensive or complicated I would just take a pass
to something simpler.

It's not hugely complicated, but very easy to screw it up.

First off, as someone else mentioned, you either need to buy the right
generators (that are designed to be run in parallel) or strike out on
your own.

To do it manually, you need to be able to control the speed of at least
one generator, preferably both. (I don't think you easily can with the
4000exl.) Also, both generators need to have governors that will keep
them at speed. Being able to maintain speed will help them properly
share the load.

If memory serves the following might be correct...

a) Disconnect all loads from both generators.

b) Connect ground and neutral between both.

c) Call the two hots "high" and "low" on both generators. Make
certain the polarity or phase is correct -- both high the same, both
low the same.

d) Wire double-pole switch (rated for full generator current) to
simultaneously connect high to high and low to low.

e) Connect light bulb between the two highs on the generator side of
the switch.

f) Make certain the switch is off (generators separate).

g) Start both generators.

h) With both at speed, adjust the speed so the light bulb stays dark.

i) Close the switch (paralleling the generators).

j) If it doesn't blow up one (or both) of them, you succeeded.

k) Connect the loads.

Shutdown is reverse:

k) Disconnect the loads

i) Open the switch

g) Stop both generators

(All that may be correct, but you are on your own!)
I live in a rural area (way) outside Chicago and have a private well for my
water source. Being a stepchild to any town, I experience power outages
randomly several times a year and purchased a Generac 4000exl, which serves
all my needs except for air conditioning on occasional hot humid summer
nights. So I'm pondering to either buy a larger generator, an additional one
or live with what I got.

I have a 4000xl (from the pre-Briggs days). It's a nice unit. The only
way I'd try to parallel it with another generator is if I was resigned
to replacing the two generators anyway. I use it in parallel with a
Trace (ne Xantrex) SW inverter to power larger loads. (See "generator
assist.")

sdb
 
P

(PeteCresswell)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Per Bruce in Alaska:
or you could buy yourself a couple of Honda Inverter/Gensets
and the Parallel Cable Kit and do it that way with those

Tangential question: Can Honda inverter-based generators of
different sizes be paralleled? e.g. Can an EU2000 be hooked up
in parallel with an EU3000is?
 
J

Johnny B Good

Jan 1, 1970
0
The message <[email protected]>
from Dale E <[email protected]> contains these words:


sylvan butler wrote:

How do the genny's maintain sync?

In exactly the same way that the large PSU's generators (national grid
connected power station generators) do.

A synchronous AC motor is essentially the same as an AC generator
(excepting the obvious starting/control gear differences). Once a
generator set (steam or gas turbine powered) is up to speed and in phase
with the grid, it can be connected to the power station's transformer
bus. Thereafter, the more steam or throttle it is given the harder it
will 'push' (production of amps into the load which boosts the grid
supply - i.e. exporting electrical power).

However, if the steam or fuel is throttled back, the generator will
remain in sync by using power from the grid (it will then act as a
synchronous motor). The effect will be to increase the load on the
remaining generator sets connected to the grid which will cause them to
slow down a little as well as cause the grid supply voltage to droop a
little (which will reduce the amount of power taken by the load on the
grid by a similar fraction - assuming the major load does not comprise
wholly of SMPSU powered devices :).

In a 'national grid' setup, there are various classes of power
stations, amongst which will be main stations which will adjust their
power delivery by increasing or decreasing their generator set speed
from a a national time standard derived 50 or 60 Hz reference so as to
average exactly a 50 or 60Hz frequency over each (and every) 24 hour
period. The adjustments appear to be applied at about 4 per minute.

The rest of the power generating plant connected to the grid will
simply remain in sync following the changes of frequency being imposed
by the main station(s).

In any decent sized grid system, it's unlikely that the largest
generator in a main power station will be called upon to provide more
than 5% of the total load on the grid (more likely less than 1%) so the
problem of dealing with the effect of an outage of prime motive power in
a generator set on the rest of the grid (loss of steam delivery or blown
turbine casing, or whatever) is much less than in the case of a two
generator home power setup.

Here (dual generator home power setup), each generator will probably
only have a 60 or 70% capacity of the total load. An outage of one of
the generators will almost certainly shutdown the other due to overload
(unless the load just happens to already be within the capacity of the
remaining generator). Essentially, a dual generator home power setup
simply lacks the 'redundency' that's built into the national grid setup.

If you're planning on a home power multi generator system, you need at
least 3 generator sets to gain a reasonable benefit in terms of
reliability of supply. In this case, ideally, each generator will be
rated for one third of the absolute maximum load and have a short term
(5 or 10 minutes?) overload capacity of 50% above their maximum
continuous rating (as well as the obvious extra synchronising control
gear to permit such combining onto a common supply busbar).

As has already been pointed out, it's probably best to keep the two
generator loads seperate rather than combine them. Here, you might
seperate the loads into critical and optional loads with a swap over
switch between the generators and their loads (perhaps using an
automated relay operated swap over switch designed to give priority to
the critical load so that it remains connected to a working generator
regardless of whichever fails - or is shutdown).

One major consideration with seperately loaded generators is the issue
of safety. This arises whenever there is the possibility of the two hot
phase voltages being present within arm's reach of each other.

Since the generators are both free running and, for safety's sake, have
a common 'neutral' and ground connection, the hot phase voltages will be
going in and out of phase. This means, (in the extreme case of identical
voltage magnitude) that the voltage difference between the two phases
will vary from zero voltage to double the generator voltage at the
difference frequency (maybe as low as half a Hertz or less) which makes
the shock hazard even more lethal than in the single generator
situation.

Provided this potential hazard when running two generators into
seperate loads is taken care of, this method offers a better solution to
the combined into a single load method (unless you're prepared to invest
in generator sets with at least a short term rating equal to the total
maximum load - i.e. bigger, more expensive generators).

HTH
 
R

Ray King

Jan 1, 1970
0
The belt also absorbs vibration and damps any sympathetic
torsional resonance.

Two heads on a suitably large engine is certainly viable.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Nuke the Whales!

I agree a belt is better than welding but the generators will phase lock on
their own. Because a motor is a generator and vice versa at least in this
case. The paralleling has two issues. The phase syncing and voltage
equalization. The gas/diesel engines will lag depending upon their load as a
percentage of its rating not to exceed 100 %. If this starts to happen the
generator will turn into a motor and there will be no load on the slower
generator ( watch the first generator throttle position to make sure it
never drops much below the other generator.one generator will try to become
the master) The second problem of voltage equalization between two
generators suggests both generators should be tested to have the same no
load out put voltage. The safe proceedure is to add field control to match
the output voltages.
Ray
 
S

Sudy Nim

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Young said:
Possible but not practical unless the generators are designed for
parallelling. Requires careful regulation of fuel to properly hold the
frequency and to share real (resistive, in phase) power load and requires
regulation of voltage to properly share reactive (inductive or capacitive,
out of phase) power loads. Otherwise the generators will "fight" each other
trying to control the frequency and voltage.

It is much, much easier to just split the load if you want two generators.

Don Young

A big thanks to all I appreciate your sharing of knowledge. Very informative
and I really got an education. I believe I (could) now parallel two
generators but as I would not do this regularly it would be easy to overlook
something and open myself to injury or worst. I think this is a subject for
someone that is going to set up a continuously operating source of power?
When my power goes out especially in a rain storm, I am often in the dark
and irritated, not thinking properly, rushed to get the sump pumps running;
it is not the correct attitude or environment for taking on a project
requiring caution. Just setting up and operating a generator is a great
enough task. All things considered, as I do not use the generator on a
regular basis it would appear in my case, a bigger generator is the "proper"
solution. Sudy Nim
 
B

Bruce in Alaska

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dale E said:
How do the genny's maintain sync?

with either, a very expensive Electronic Governers, or they don't, and
things get very intersting, very fast, and the Magic Smoke appears.
Mechanical Governers found in small and medium sized (Typically less
than 100Kw) Gensets are NOT going to be good enough to keep the Magic
smoke from appearing...... if you need more power than you can get out
of your small genset, then you just need a BIGGER Genset, unless
you got an Inverter Based Genset, that is designed for Paralleling.

Bruce in alaska
 
N

NotMe

Jan 1, 1970
0
|
| | > Is it possible to run two portable generators in parallel?
| >
| >
|
| Aside from buy two new inverter generators designed to be paralleled I've
| read (in this NG) in the past about using a 100 watt light bulb to somehow
| synchronize the waveforms. From what I've read it's tricky but can be
done,
| at least sometimes. I imagine the frequency needs to be very close on
both
| gennies. Perhaps some googling might turn up some old posts on the
subject.

The process is very simple.

The bulb is wired to the hot line of both gen sets. The speed and voltage
are adjusted so the bulb is effectively 'off'.

When the genset are more then 20 Hz off the bulb is constant on, as the
frequency approaches a match the bulb flickers until full frequency and
phase is in sync. At full voltage and freq sync the bulb is off.

To my personal knowledge (goes back 50+ years) this process was and may
still be used in marine applications when hot transferring loads from a
running genset to another gen set when the first is to be shut down for what
ever reason.

I've also observed (but have zero personal experience other than watching
the deed be done) the process used to sync gen sets that had the ability to
self maintain sync over narrow ranges once set up.
 
J

Johnny B Good

Jan 1, 1970
0
The message <[email protected]>
from Dale E <[email protected]> contains these words:


I'm not the O.P. but I think he will find your reply as informative as
I did. Thanks.

Well, Dale, it's nice of you to say so but, in view of Bruce's comments
re 'The Magic Smoke'(tm), I feel obliged to point out that the
generator's circuit breakers should take care of that little problem.

Ideally, both generator sets should be free running within a fraction
of a percent of each other's speed to avoid load hogging by the faster
set. Even so, provided this speed difference is sufficiently small, the
load sharing imbalance will also be sufficiently low enough not to
matter.

If you're running two sets to provide for intermittent peak demand
loads then even in the extreme case of one set running out of fuel
during a period of low electrical demand, the fuel starved generator
will keep right on running (the generator now acting as a synchronous
motor) provided the total load on the remaining set is still within its
rating.

Spinning a fuel starved generator set via the electrical link from the
remaining set can present a considerable load (ICE pumping losses at
1500/1800 rpm if the throttle is left wide open on a petroleum or gas
powered 4 stroke engine - not so bad if the throttle is closed - a
diesel engine doesn't normally incorporate any induction throttling).

Generator sets designed to be 'ganged' in this fashion may well
incorporate a 'freewheel' drive between the prime motive power source
and the alternator to avoid imposing the extra mechanical loading under
such conditions (although a solenoid operated contactor driven by
suitable monitoring/control electronics can achieve the same effect,
only better - eliminating the windage losses in the alternator itself as
well).

Whilst the concept of combining the power output of two or more
modestly rated generators onto a single higher power bus (a sort of
'Redundent Array of Inexpensive Generator Sets' as it were) to emulate a
'mini national grid' might seem appealing, it does have a serious
shortcoming compared to the model it has been scaled down from.

The variations of demand on the national grid (in percentage terms) are
a hell of a lot smoother than those imposed on a home generator system
designed to substitute the mains supply and satisfy the normal peak
demands. The PSU might see a 30% rise in demand over a twenty second
period as TV viewers take advantage of an advert break to boil a kettle
of water for a hot beverage.

If the PSU has access to pumped storage backup, the ten seconds run up
of the 'hot standby' genset backed up by the 60 second runup from
standstill gensets will easily cover the peak demand. Even if there is a
shortfall, the grid voltage will simply sag a little until the extra
capacity comes on line to match the demand.

A home setup has no such resiliency. the demand can go from, say, 1.5KW
to 3.5KW in the blink of an eye and can then jump to a 5.5KW loading
within a second or two of that first increase. If you have installed a
pair of 3.6KW gensets which can be ganged onto the main house supply bus
and are running just the one to minimise fuel consumption, the second
loading event will have tripped out the generator before you could even
start the other genset, let alone bring it up to speed and phase to
allow its connection onto the house bus.

If you are going to run two or more ganged gensets, you will need to
keep them all running during the outage unless you are prepared to
follow a strict plan on electrical usage - effectively booking the extra
capacity ahead of the actual demand.

The resulting fuel consumption under light loading of say a pair of
3.6KW rated gensets is likely to be higher than for a single 8KW genset
under the same load. IOW, the running costs will be very nearly the same
between the two options (One large generator versus two or more smaller
generators).

On balance, the use of two or more small gensets as a substitute for a
single larger capacity unit is best served by having split power buses
rather than trying to combine the output onto a single bus. You have the
benefit of redundency and a foolproof system of prebooking capacity for
the extra transient loads.

There is a way to combine two or three smaller gensets economically
onto a single bus without the risk of overloading the single running
genset by the switching of additional loads. Essentially this makes use
of a battery powered inverter capable of making up the shortfall during
the runup time required to bring the extra genset on line. The inverter
needs to be of the type designed to allow export of surplus power back
to the grid. This not a cheap solution considering that we might need
some 3 to 6 KW of inverter capacity and involves a relatively expensive
consumable in the form of a heavy duty rechargable battery pack.

If you're looking at a strategy to minimise the effects of extended
mains supply outages (hours to days worth), the two differently sized
generator sets on seperate buses supplemented by suitable UPSes to
protect PCs and similarly microprocessor controlled devices is going to
be the most cost effective and simplest solution to implement.

Such a system will require you to manage your electrical demands to
avoid overloading your generator capacity, but this will be a relatively
minor inconvenience compared to the alternative of having no electrical
loads at all to be managed.
 
S

sylvan butler

Jan 1, 1970
0
with either, a very expensive Electronic Governers, or they don't, and
things get very intersting, very fast, and the Magic Smoke appears.

Not true. In fact, you do NOT WANT ELECTRONICS involved unless they are
"very expensive" because simple mechanical governors will work fine. If
one genny tries to go faster, it will naturally be loaded more heavily
and this will tend to slow it down. (Called load hogging.)

sdb
 
S

sylvan butler

Jan 1, 1970
0
enough task. All things considered, as I do not use the generator on a
regular basis it would appear in my case, a bigger generator is the "proper"
solution. Sudy Nim

Smart choice. The only other real consideration would be the inverter
with generator assist. More expensive. But capable of so much more.
:)

sdb
 
daestrom said:
While at school, a student paralleled two 'small' 5kW units together close
to 180 out. These were actually MG-sets used for training where a DC motor
was used to drive the AC generator.

When I shorted the output of a 20 HP AC MG set at school, it didn't rip off
the foundation, but it blew a circuit breaker 3 buildings away :)

My ME brother used to test 3' diameter pressure-film lubricated bearings
at GE in Schenectady, 20,000 horsepower and up. It must be exciting when
one of those seizes on a 300' shaft.

Nick
 
R

Ray King

Jan 1, 1970
0
A few years ago I had a meeting at Siemens/ Orlando. The division that
supplies grid connections for the various power grids in the USA. They had
one long wall that was the map of the USA showing the grids and where the
were connected. They supplied two types of grid connectors. One which
connected any voltage with any voltage at any phase angle. ( This rectifies
each grid to supply current to a common dc buss. Then used an inverter to
produce ac at any voltage or frequency or phase to the needed ac grid ) (
the rectifier is really an inverter ) A large watt hour meter sat on the dc
buss reading the dc buss voltage and recording which direction the dc
current was flowing from. The dc buss was supplied from one ac or the other
ac buss. depending who needed energy. The second type of ac buss connector
had to adjust the ac voltage of one ac buss to mirror the other ac voltage
buss ( using tapped transformers). The frequency is held in synchronization
which may take several days to match long before a connection is needed. A
reactive component is added in series with the grid switch until the phases
were locked together. This reduces the high currents caused by even the
slightest phase imbalance.
The second system seems closer to the issues of paralleling small
generators.

Ray
 
S

Sudy Nim

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
While I agree with your decision, the pros don't have any special advantage
when it comes to paralleling generators. A good base-load nuc power plant
might synch to the grid once a year or less. With ten or twelve different
operators rotating shifts, the individual that synchs-in next time may not
have done it for several years. And there's always a first time for the new
guy.

The trick is to write down exactly what you should do, in the order that you
should do it. Then, when the time comes, follow your procedure and read the
steps. Even make a check-mark by each step as you perform it if it will
help you keep track of what step you're on (thank goodness airline pilots do
this).

Yes, some of us 'old-timers' can do it in the dark, standing on our head,
with one hand tied behind our back. But the good ones still use a
check-list (did you remember to cut-in the generator cooler? how about the
day-tank level?). Train yourself to use the check-list every time, even in
an emergency, and the 'magic smoke' will stay where it belongs.

daestrom

Daestrom I agree with your statement 100%. I did not set up a check-mark
list but I do have a step by step procedure. Step 1- check oil level, et-
cetera with pictures of item and its location. I had the pages laminated and
attached to the generator so I can readily find a copy. I did two
instruction pages one for start up another for shut down. Before the written
procedure AND pictures I have stared at the generator and wondered where is
the run switch? I like your idea of that check-mark list which I am working
on now.
 
B

Bruce in Alaska

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
While at school, a student paralleled two 'small' 5kW units together close
to 180 out. These were actually MG-sets used for training where a DC motor
was used to drive the AC generator.

Even that 'small' unit managed to rip itself from the foundation bolting and
roll over through a cinder-block wall. This was despite there being the
usual amount of protective relaying on the units (typical reverse-power,
over-current, phase-failure, etc...) Needless to say, the class was
canceled for the rest of the day.

Yes, the torsional forces created can be 'considerable'.

daestrom
P.S. No, it wasn't me :)

It would be interesting to see all these "Experts" take the challange of
their nearest University's Electrical Engineering Motor/Generator &
Control Lab, for just an afternoon. I wonder if it is still a Required
Course for UnderGraduates.

Bruce in alaska
 
S

Sudy Nim

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ulysses said:
Another consideration, as someone else pointed out, would be to get an
inverter that is designed to sync with a generator such as a Xantrax/Trace
SW series. From what I have read the output power from the two sources can
be combined for a total greater output. I have OutBack inverters and they
do not have this feature.

Many (or most) of us here use a large battery bank and inverters for our
main power supply. The batteries are charged via solar panels, wind
generators, or generators with various battery chargers. The result is a
pretty-much-uninterupted power supply with (assuming you have a good
inverter) high quality output. Personally I mainly use my generator only
for charging my battery bank but sometimes I'll use it to run a heavy load
for a short time (such as an air compressor) just because it's more
efficient for me to do it that way.

It's possible to start out fairly small with a battery/inverter systems if
you can manage your loads but old batteries do not usually mix well with new
batteries so it's generally better to figure out how much battery power you
need in advance and just get the bigger battery bank. I got by for years
with four 6 volt golf cart batteries, a $100 inverter, and a 2000 watt
generator. I did, however, need a 5000 watt generator for about 15-30
minutes a day to pump water and run my compressor.
Must admit my lack of knowledge when it comes to inverters. Don't know that
I ever saw one. I have looked into getting a larger generator but the next
size up (to power an air conditioner) is really too big. At the moment my
4000-watt is convenient and adequate for nearly all my needs. It will easily
handle lights, water, refrigerator, TV and furnace in the winter only
lacking that occasional "cooling" option in the summer. Not sure what I will
do yet. Thanks for the inverter update; I will do a search to check it out.
Sudy Nim
 
V

Vaughn Simon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sudy Nim said:
Must admit my lack of knowledge when it comes to inverters. Don't know that
I ever saw one. I have looked into getting a larger generator but the next
size up (to power an air conditioner) is really too big. At the moment my
4000-watt is convenient and adequate for nearly all my needs. It will easily
handle lights, water, refrigerator, TV and furnace in the winter only
lacking that occasional "cooling" option in the summer. Not sure what I will
do yet.

What many Floridians do is buy a cheap window unit and just keep it on a
shelf. Your 4000-watt generator will start & run at least a 5000 (and probably
an 8000) BTU unit which you could use to create a "cool room". It is also
useful if your central AC unit goes out.

Vaughn
 
S

Sudy Nim

Jan 1, 1970
0
Vaughn Simon said:
What many Floridians do is buy a cheap window unit and just keep it on a
shelf. Your 4000-watt generator will start & run at least a 5000 (and probably
an 8000) BTU unit which you could use to create a "cool room". It is also
useful if your central AC unit goes out.

Vaughn
Thank you Vaughn. That's a suggestion I can easily live with. Sudy Nim
 
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