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D

David Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
The said:
To be honest, i have never looked at python. I probably never will
either, as I have just taken a consultancy role at a 100% MS shop!
However, I have hearld lots about it, and I will endeavour to have a
look in my onw time, maybe when I buy my Mac.

Python is a programming language, not an alternative monopolistic
software vendor who throws their toys out of the pram when they can't
bully and control someone (in this case, they don't like Java because
they can't force it to be windows-only - thus they made .net). The
point of using Python is that it is a good choice of language for many
projects - it is faster and easier to work with for many types of code,
as it is higher level, interpreted, dynamically typed, has direct
support for constructs such as dictionaries and lists, and has a vast
selection of library modules.

If you really insist on using .net, rather than a proper cross-platform
toolkit, then look at Iron Python - it is effectively Python#.
 
T

The Real Andy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Python is a programming language, not an alternative monopolistic
software vendor who throws their toys out of the pram when they can't
bully and control someone (in this case, they don't like Java because
they can't force it to be windows-only - thus they made .net). The

Ahh, these are the types or rants that make me lose interest in the
'open source' community. Cant you just talk about the language with
out throwing in the 'MS sucks because I don't like them' part. It is
completely irrelevant. I don't give a **** about MS, nor the fact that
they are a monopoly. I give a **** about how _I_ can make money, and
what tools/languages will make _ME_ money. If using MS tools and
languages means I can continue making AU$80-100/ hour, then I will
continue using them. ALternatively, If using Python can make me that
kind of money on a regular basis, then I will use it. To be honest
though, I have never seen a job advertised for python.

point of using Python is that it is a good choice of language for many
projects - it is faster and easier to work with for many types of code,
as it is higher level, interpreted, dynamically typed, has direct
support for constructs such as dictionaries and lists, and has a vast
selection of library modules.

Sounds like any other language. What interests me is how robust the
language is. I am not a big fan of dynamically types languages, I
prefer strongly typed. How does it benefit me, and the business who is
paying me to develop there applications?
If you really insist on using .net, rather than a proper cross-platform
toolkit, then look at Iron Python - it is effectively Python#.

I don't insist on using .net. I insist on making money. If it cant
make me money, then I wont use. What I will do is make a note of it,
and probably have a play with it when I have time. That way I can make
an informed judgment for myself.
 
M

MassiveProng

Jan 1, 1970
0
I agree, and that is when most people gave up on Borland. MFC was
always ahead (even if it was crap) and the OWL compatibility debacle
in the early 90's (IIRC) was just a plain fucken pain in the arse.


Paradox was one hell of a relational database.
 
F

Frithiof Andreas Jensen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sounds like any other language. What interests me is how robust the
language is.

#define "robust" ???
I am not a big fan of dynamically types languages, I
prefer strongly typed.

Why? Types are a relic from when programming consisted of smearing bits over
hardware. If you program C#, you should be way past fretting over what internal
representation things have.

Not that Python lacks types - they just work differently.
How does it benefit me, and the business who is
paying me to develop there applications?

Python is I.M.O. very easy to use so you can do more with it in less time (i.e
finish the work in one week and then use the next two on to more important jobs
such as working out how to kill the armoured guy in FEAR using only the pistol).

In terms of language, Python is object oriented, but you do not have to use
objects. There are exceptions, you do not have to use them. In many ways
opposite the whip and bondage of Java. PERL and Python are logical opposites,
PERL have infinately many ways of doing the same task, in Python the one or two
obvious ways is normally the most effective method. (C# is most similar to
Python).

Python delivers the cross-platform portability that Java lacks: wxWidgets f.x.
(GUI library), behaves native, look native and feels native on windows or Linux
(KDE, Fluxbox, Gnome, whatever). I tend to write Python stuff on my windows XP
laptop and deploy it to Linux later with no trouble - the only pain was when
wxWidgets changed naming standard between versions, there was a skew from Linux
to Win XP and my app broke on the move.

Most often Python is used as "thin glue" like the floor-levelling goo one uses
before tiling: Making up a sane interface between disparate processes. That's
why you do not see it so much "advertised", it's hidden in the infrastructure.
Lenovo PC's ship with it for some purpose along that.

The core Python license is very generous: You can build a product with the
interpreter and your code and sell it as your product (licenses on add-on's
might vary).

Anyway: http://www.python.org/ - it's here! It installs/runs on windows (and
uninstall even works also).

I like a lot. You might have a different taste.
 
D

David Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
The said:
Ahh, these are the types or rants that make me lose interest in the
'open source' community. Cant you just talk about the language with
out throwing in the 'MS sucks because I don't like them' part. It is
completely irrelevant. I don't give a **** about MS, nor the fact that
they are a monopoly. I give a **** about how _I_ can make money, and
what tools/languages will make _ME_ money. If using MS tools and
languages means I can continue making AU$80-100/ hour, then I will
continue using them. ALternatively, If using Python can make me that
kind of money on a regular basis, then I will use it. To be honest
though, I have never seen a job advertised for python.

Use the right tool for the job - I use windows and linux, closed source
and open source, according to the requirements. If you read a little
further, I'm suggesting you look at the MS-sponsored version of Python
running mainly on MS-based .net.

However, before I use a tool, I look at what it is, where it came from,
why it exists, and where it is going. When I look at .net, I am not
impressed - for my own work, I'd prefer something more open and more
flexible, which is going to work now and in the future on many systems.
I don't like being at the mercy of a single vendor with a terrible
track record if I can avoid it. It might be a different matter if I
were paid by the hour for the work I do - people paid to service
computers see their unreliability as a benefit.

I don't claim that "MS sucks because I don't like them", I don't like
them because they use a variety of illegal and unethical methods to gain
control over people and organisations, causing vast financial cost to
those people and to the detriment of the quality of software and
computers, and destroying healthy competition. I put up with MS
software when I have to, and I'll happily give them credit when it is
due (windows is not nearly as unreliable as some claim, if it is treated
appropriately) - but I'll not choose MS solutions without good reason.
Sounds like any other language. What interests me is how robust the
language is. I am not a big fan of dynamically types languages, I
prefer strongly typed. How does it benefit me, and the business who is
paying me to develop there applications?

I've told you briefly why I like it. If you want a cost analysis and
business case for using it, ask someone selling Python services, or try
it out yourself. And no, it is not "like any other language" - but it
certainly has similarities to other languages. It is somewhat like
Ruby, and has a certain amount of overlap with Perl (although Python is
much more readable).
I don't insist on using .net. I insist on making money. If it cant
make me money, then I wont use. What I will do is make a note of it,
and probably have a play with it when I have time. That way I can make
an informed judgment for myself.

I offered the suggestion of Python in that spirit - look at it yourself,
and see what you think.
 
T

The Real Andy

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:11:27 +0100, David Brown

I offered the suggestion of Python in that spirit - look at it yourself,
and see what you think.

I am intending to have a look, as I suggested before. In fact, I am
going to buy an Mac notebook over the next couple of weeks(when I have
time), so that is when I will try it.

However, I can assure you that the chances of me using it on a
commercial basis are as good as none. This is not because I think
Python is no good, but rather the majority of work in Australia is
targeted at MS platforms. Regardless, if I can talk someone around
because it reduces development time and increases the benefits for my
customers, then I will do so. I doubt this is the case though.
 
T

The Real Andy

Jan 1, 1970
0
#define "robust" ???


Why? Types are a relic from when programming consisted of smearing bits over
hardware. If you program C#, you should be way past fretting over what internal
representation things have.

Not that Python lacks types - they just work differently.


Python is I.M.O. very easy to use so you can do more with it in less time (i.e
finish the work in one week and then use the next two on to more important jobs
such as working out how to kill the armoured guy in FEAR using only the pistol).

In terms of language, Python is object oriented, but you do not have to use
objects. There are exceptions, you do not have to use them. In many ways
opposite the whip and bondage of Java. PERL and Python are logical opposites,
PERL have infinately many ways of doing the same task, in Python the one or two
obvious ways is normally the most effective method. (C# is most similar to
Python).

Python delivers the cross-platform portability that Java lacks: wxWidgets f.x.
(GUI library), behaves native, look native and feels native on windows or Linux
(KDE, Fluxbox, Gnome, whatever). I tend to write Python stuff on my windows XP
laptop and deploy it to Linux later with no trouble - the only pain was when
wxWidgets changed naming standard between versions, there was a skew from Linux
to Win XP and my app broke on the move.

Most often Python is used as "thin glue" like the floor-levelling goo one uses
before tiling: Making up a sane interface between disparate processes. That's
why you do not see it so much "advertised", it's hidden in the infrastructure.
Lenovo PC's ship with it for some purpose along that.

The core Python license is very generous: You can build a product with the
interpreter and your code and sell it as your product (licenses on add-on's
might vary).

Anyway: http://www.python.org/ - it's here! It installs/runs on windows (and
uninstall even works also).

I am going to install it on the Mac which I am hoping to get out today
and buy.
I like a lot. You might have a different taste.

In 25 words or less, how do you do GUI design? Is it code driven, or
graphical designer driven? Which is the best toolkit to use? Looking
at python.org it lookes like i need to use some library, rolled into
some design tool/ide + the python translator itself?

If there is one IDE that does the lot, I'd like to know about that.

BTW. Can be linux,OSX or Windows. I dont have Mac yet, but have the
other 2.
 
C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
The said:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:11:27 +0100, David Brown



I am intending to have a look, as I suggested before. In fact, I am
going to buy an Mac notebook over the next couple of weeks(when I have
time), so that is when I will try it.

However, I can assure you that the chances of me using it on a
commercial basis are as good as none. This is not because I think
Python is no good, but rather the majority of work in Australia is
targeted at MS platforms.

That shouldn't hold you back, python works great on *all* MS platforms...
and linux, and BSD, and solaris, and unix, and hpux, and OSX, and OS/2,
and DOS, and QNX, and... I'm sure you get the point, right?

..NET, and C# can't quite make the same claim.

If you check out *any* modern unix like box, you will find lots of the
system utilities for configuration, setting up accounts, email, etc are
done in python. Those that aren't are probably in sh, perl, or C/C++.

And since python is free for any use, on any platform, trying it out
doesn't need to wait for a Mac notebook. It'll run just fine on any old
thing.

-Chuck


OBTW, "Python" is named for the comedy troop, Monty Python, not the snake.
IIRC, its mascot is the foot crashing out of a cloud and stomping someone.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
In 25 words or less, how do you do GUI design? Is it code driven, or
graphical designer driven? Which is the best toolkit to use? Looking
at python.org it lookes like i need to use some library, rolled into
some design tool/ide + the python translator itself?

As usual, it depends. You can write scripts that invoke widgets, or
you can use widgets as objects that call scripts.
If there is one IDE that does the lot, I'd like to know about that.

Kdevelop. It comes with

Oops! 25 word limit reached! ;-D

Cheers!
Rich
 
C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich said:

YuCK! I guess that is what happens when the original
founder lets in the unwashed hoards. That logo is based
around the snake reference. I read the forward to one of
Rossum's books, and it told of the Monty Python linkage, and
had the foot from the sky.
 
M

MassiveProng

Jan 1, 1970
0
As usual, it depends. You can write scripts that invoke widgets, or
you can use widgets as objects that call scripts.


That's not GUI design, idiot. That is development platform
utilization.

To answer the question, you would have to also be the author of any
"widget" pre-defined code segments.

Otherwise, you're just another wuss using what someone else wrote
and calling it your own, simply because you threw a few pieces of
their work together.
 
T

The Real Andy

Jan 1, 1970
0
That shouldn't hold you back, python works great on *all* MS platforms...
and linux, and BSD, and solaris, and unix, and hpux, and OSX, and OS/2,
and DOS, and QNX, and... I'm sure you get the point, right?

Sorry, should have said most work is .net
 
F

Frithiof Andreas Jensen

Jan 1, 1970
0
In 25 words or less, how do you do GUI design? Is it code driven, or
graphical designer driven? Which is the best toolkit to use? Looking
at python.org it lookes like i need to use some library, rolled into
some design tool/ide + the python translator itself?

For the GUI "engine" use wxPython (wxWidgets+Python interface) -
http://wxpython.org/ .

For GUI design I prefer wxGlade - in spite of a bug:
http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/WxGladeFirstSteps - easily fixed manually
(maybe fixed already?). wxGlade is at http://wxglade.sourceforge.net/ .

wxGlade generates the GUI code and then one has to hook in the application code
manually (which is what I prefer to do anyway). The *excellent* part of wxGlade
is that the GUI is saved as an XML-file so it is easy to tweak something with a
search & replace in a text editor!

There is also http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/ which is more "complete"
because it can generate code too and organise code in projects e.t.c.. It's
quite usable IMO ... but ... it *does* tends to crash occationally. Boa is
probably the most all-in-one IDE there is. .

I am not aware of any commercial GUI tools - there is
http://www.activestate.com/products/activepython/ for better code integration
with windows applications.
If there is one IDE that does the lot, I'd like to know about that.

Not really - Python code tends to be compact so there is probably not so much
pressure for one.

Something based on Eclipse is probably the best bet:
http://www128.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-ecant/ .

I hate Eclipse myself - it reeks of the process-laden suckiness of Big Corporate
Managed IT Systems!
 
M

MassiveProng

Jan 1, 1970
0
For GUI design I prefer wxGlade - in spite of a bug:


These "developments" would be more correctly termed "user interface
forms development" since the realm in which you operate is already a
GUI.

That isn't "GUI" design, it is "forms design".

Not much different than database development. You design a form
using widgets so the user can access the underlying application via
dialogs, fields to fill in, etc.

I don't understand how it is you folks have come to call using GUI
oriented development realms "GUI design" when they did all the work
for you, and all you are doing is creating a method to access your
application. GUI utilization maybe, but you didn't "design" anything
other than a screen form using already existing modules..
 
T

The Real Andy

Jan 1, 1970
0
For the GUI "engine" use wxPython (wxWidgets+Python interface) -
http://wxpython.org/ .

For GUI design I prefer wxGlade - in spite of a bug:
http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/WxGladeFirstSteps - easily fixed manually
(maybe fixed already?). wxGlade is at http://wxglade.sourceforge.net/ .

wxGlade generates the GUI code and then one has to hook in the application code
manually (which is what I prefer to do anyway). The *excellent* part of wxGlade
is that the GUI is saved as an XML-file so it is easy to tweak something with a
search & replace in a text editor!

There is also http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/ which is more "complete"
because it can generate code too and organise code in projects e.t.c.. It's
quite usable IMO ... but ... it *does* tends to crash occationally. Boa is
probably the most all-in-one IDE there is. .

I am not aware of any commercial GUI tools - there is
http://www.activestate.com/products/activepython/ for better code integration
with windows applications.


Not really - Python code tends to be compact so there is probably not so much
pressure for one.

Something based on Eclipse is probably the best bet:
http://www128.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-ecant/ .

I hate Eclipse myself - it reeks of the process-laden suckiness of Big Corporate
Managed IT Systems!


I give up.
 
D

David Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
The said:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:11:27 +0100, David Brown



I am intending to have a look, as I suggested before. In fact, I am
going to buy an Mac notebook over the next couple of weeks(when I have
time), so that is when I will try it.

However, I can assure you that the chances of me using it on a
commercial basis are as good as none. This is not because I think
Python is no good, but rather the majority of work in Australia is
targeted at MS platforms. Regardless, if I can talk someone around
because it reduces development time and increases the benefits for my
customers, then I will do so. I doubt this is the case though.

The majority of my Python work is targeted at MS platforms. Most of my
PC level software is for internal use or specific customers (my work is
mainly embedded programming), so it is quite specific. But I have a
couple of programs that are for wider distribution, and I expect to have
both Mac and Linux versions in the future - using cross-platform tools
from the ground up means that change will be far smaller. Even for code
that I know will never run on anything but Windows, I will normally
write in Python (or sometimes Delphi, or even C, depending on the
situation).

If you are writing code for a customer, and the customer chooses the
development platform and languages, then you clearly have far less
choice. And if they are paying for your time, then you have little
incentive to choose a more efficient development platform. Even then,
factors such as experience can weigh far more heavily than the benefits
of a particular language - it does not help that Python code is
typically a tenth of the size of equivalent Java code (according to a
statistic I read somewhere) if you don't know what to write!
 
C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
MassiveProng said:
These "developments" would be more correctly termed "user interface
forms development" since the realm in which you operate is already a
GUI.

That isn't "GUI" design, it is "forms design".

Not much different than database development. You design a form
using widgets so the user can access the underlying application via
dialogs, fields to fill in, etc.

I don't understand how it is you folks have come to call using GUI
oriented development realms "GUI design" when they did all the work
for you, and all you are doing is creating a method to access your
application. GUI utilization maybe, but you didn't "design" anything
other than a screen form using already existing modules..

Probably much the same way as I consider myself a C programmer even
though the libraries I use are must modules written by someone else.

These GUI's are more akin to editors like emacs, and they simply give
you an easier way of viewing linkages, and associating blocks in your
code.

-Chuck
 
M

MassiveProng

Jan 1, 1970
0
Probably much the same way as I consider myself a C programmer even
though the libraries I use are must modules written by someone else.

These GUI's are more akin to editors like emacs, and they simply give
you an easier way of viewing linkages, and associating blocks in your
code.

-Chuck


I like doing Nat'l Inst. LabView coding on GPIB, etc. with an HP
Network Analyzer or Spectrum Analyzer. Things are moving into USB and
even Bluetooth and the like. Pretty easy stuff yielding fantastic
results! Great time saver in the lab too.

I spent my day in Arack!

I just made a new engineering joke. Tee Hee Hee! :-]
 
G

Geoff

Jan 1, 1970
0
Genome said:
No..... your computer worked before it was installed your computer
will work after you get rid of it.

I know three fifths of bugger all about this stuff but .NET is some
new MicroCrap crap which is another layer of shit MicroCrap are
layering on top of their other crap to 'consolidate' programming
under Windows.

It's essential a run-time library for the increasing number of applications
that use it's features. If you use XP or Vista you will need .NET
eventually. It does no harm.

geoff
 
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