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multilayer PCB manufacturing machines?

K

Kenjis Kaan

Jan 1, 1970
0
What exactly are the names of those machines used for making
multilayer PCBs? I am referring to those professional machines
big companies such as IBM, HPs, Lucents etc use to manufacture
PCBs for their goods. How much do these things costs new? used?

Lastly, do they make scaled down version for the average hobbyist
to buy (I know u are all gonna fall on the floor and laugh).
 
F

Frank Bemelman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Kenjis Kaan said:
What exactly are the names of those machines used for making
multilayer PCBs? I am referring to those professional machines
big companies such as IBM, HPs, Lucents etc use to manufacture
PCBs for their goods. How much do these things costs new? used?

Lastly, do they make scaled down version for the average hobbyist
to buy (I know u are all gonna fall on the floor and laugh).

I think the average hobbyist is better serviced by companies
such as www.olimex.com for their projects. And that is not a
joke ;-)
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
What exactly are the names of those machines used for making
multilayer PCBs? I am referring to those professional machines
big companies such as IBM, HPs, Lucents etc use to manufacture
PCBs for their goods. How much do these things costs new? used?

The bare multilayer boards are made from "pre-preg" by a whole bunch
of machines. Drilling machines, routing machines, photoresist
lamination machines, V-groove machines, inspection equipment, printing
equipment, plating lines, and lamination presses, hot air leveling
equipment, etc. etc. Automated assembly involves different equipment,
roomfuls of it.
Lastly, do they make scaled down version for the average hobbyist
to buy (I know u are all gonna fall on the floor and laugh).

Forget it.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
R

Ross Mac

Jan 1, 1970
0
Spehro Pefhany said:
The bare multilayer boards are made from "pre-preg" by a whole bunch
of machines. Drilling machines, routing machines, photoresist
lamination machines, V-groove machines, inspection equipment, printing
equipment, plating lines, and lamination presses, hot air leveling
equipment, etc. etc. Automated assembly involves different equipment,
roomfuls of it.


Forget it.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
http://www.speff.com

That's correct...I would like to see a scaled down a 20,000 pound drill or a
10,000 pound router.... AOI, or Plating line for that matter...
To make a PCB....it takes A Lot of money these days...the days of building
boards under a roll-up door are almost over...a few folks make a living in
the quick turn biz doing it but....that's about it!
And hey Spehro, that comment on another thread about the dialysis machine
was a kick !
 
R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
Kenjis said:
What exactly are the names of those machines used for making
multilayer PCBs? I am referring to those professional machines
big companies such as IBM, HPs, Lucents etc use to manufacture
PCBs for their goods. How much do these things costs new? used?

Lastly, do they make scaled down version for the average hobbyist
to buy (I know u are all gonna fall on the floor and laugh).

Most of the big companies like you mention do not make multi-layer
boards; they buy their needs from makers of PCB materials and some PCB
board houses.
Reference:
http://fabfileonline.com/

There is no "scaled down" "version".
For a 4-layer board, two 0.020 2-sided boards and one 0.020 "pre-preg"
(no copper) board are laminated together with the appropiate bonding
materials, using controlled pressure (canyou say "hydraulic press"?) and
temperature ( can you say "built in multi-kilowatt precicely controlled
heater"?).
Add in another pre-preg sheet and another 2-sided PCB for a 6-layer
board (different thicknesses if the result is to be a final near 0.063
thick).
You *might* be able to squeexe one machine into your garage with zero
(or maybe even negative) space left.
And you want 480V power at a minimum....
Oh, i forgot the minor thing: lotza money to get and feed them....
 
R

Ross Mac

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Baer said:
Most of the big companies like you mention do not make multi-layer
boards; they buy their needs from makers of PCB materials and some PCB
board houses.
Reference:
http://fabfileonline.com/

There is no "scaled down" "version".
For a 4-layer board, two 0.020 2-sided boards and one 0.020 "pre-preg"
(no copper) board are laminated together with the appropiate bonding
materials, using controlled pressure (canyou say "hydraulic press"?) and
temperature ( can you say "built in multi-kilowatt precicely controlled
heater"?).
Add in another pre-preg sheet and another 2-sided PCB for a 6-layer
board (different thicknesses if the result is to be a final near 0.063
thick).
You *might* be able to squeexe one machine into your garage with zero
(or maybe even negative) space left.
And you want 480V power at a minimum....
Oh, i forgot the minor thing: lotza money to get and feed them....

So true, most of the big companies go to other big EMS companies to build
the boards and stuff them....
And like you say, most of us couldn't even squeeze a machine into their
garage not to mention the power requirements!
 
R

Roger Hamlett

Jan 1, 1970
0
Kenjis Kaan said:
What exactly are the names of those machines used for making
multilayer PCBs? I am referring to those professional machines
big companies such as IBM, HPs, Lucents etc use to manufacture
PCBs for their goods. How much do these things costs new? used?

Lastly, do they make scaled down version for the average hobbyist
to buy (I know u are all gonna fall on the floor and laugh).
I wonder if you are perhaps thinking of the prototyping systems, like the
lpkf, rather than production machines. Production systems are large,
expensive, and cannot really be 'scaled down'. However many companies do use
prototyping systems to make initial 'one off' (or very limited quantity)
boards. These use processes like mechanical 'milling' of PCB tracks (or in
some up market cases, laser etching), combined with 'plating' processes,
using (for small boards), a vacuum process to deposit powder through the
holes, and then an oven to 'bond' this. There are also lower cost bonding
presses to allow small multi-layer boards to be done. This type of system,
starts at perhaps $5000, with a 'full' system (with automatic tool change,
oven, minature bonding press etc.), running to perhaps $25000. Many of the
companies you name, do use this type of system, but not for 'manufacture'.
Most companies 'farm' the processes out to board houses, or run a complete
house themselves.
Generally, unless you have the need for rapid prototype turnround, and are
producing hundreds of prototypes a year, it is easier/cheaper to just get
the boards made by one of the companies specialising in small runs. It is
also worth (if you are likely to make a reasonable number of boards over
time), looking to establish a good relationship with a local 'board' house.
You can (for instance), use your own CNC drilling machine to drill the holes
in a board, then ask them to plate it. Since this can normally be done by
simply inserting the board 'in between' other jobs, if they know the final
production board will be coming to them, they will often do this 'gratis'.
Then you can etch the board yourself. A similar step, allows the boards to
be laminated for multi-layer.
A full PCB 'setup' for multi-layer boards, would normally involve a
laminator, CNC mill/drill, etching machine, UV exposure system, brushing
machine, guillotine, plating system, bonding press, and oven. That is
ignoring any form of inspection, the air compressors needed etc. etc. Some
sections are produced in 'combined' machines (for instance several
manufacturers produce 'developer/etcher' machines, but there is no 'one
machine' solution I can think of. A small 'desktop' etch machine, will
perhaps run to about $10000. A very small CNC mill, could be purchased for a
few thousand dollars, small guillotine for perhaps $1000, laminator for a
couple of thousand, but the bonding press, would start at perhaps $30000. A
typical 'total', for a _very_ minimal system, would perhaps be $100000,
excluding the building to put it all in (several hundred square feet for the
smallest of systems).

Best Wishes
 
S

Stefan Heinzmann

Jan 1, 1970
0
Kenjis said:
What exactly are the names of those machines used for making
multilayer PCBs? I am referring to those professional machines
big companies such as IBM, HPs, Lucents etc use to manufacture
PCBs for their goods. How much do these things costs new? used?

Lastly, do they make scaled down version for the average hobbyist
to buy (I know u are all gonna fall on the floor and laugh).

Average hobbyist, huh?

While we're at it, what is a decent PCB manufacturing line without a
chip fab? Why not add a little clean room with the necessary wafer
stepping, etching ion implanters, testers etc.? Hey, if you're not too
ambitious with the small geometries, you may be able to pick up a 1.2µm
line on ebay.

;-)

Cheers
Stefan
 
R

Ross Mac

Jan 1, 1970
0
Kenjis Kaan said:
What exactly are the names of those machines used for making
multilayer PCBs? I am referring to those professional machines
big companies such as IBM, HPs, Lucents etc use to manufacture
PCBs for their goods. How much do these things costs new? used?

Lastly, do they make scaled down version for the average hobbyist
to buy (I know u are all gonna fall on the floor and laugh).

Most of the board shops, I spent time in that built prototype runs, used
equipment for smaller panel or board sizes. Such as a one headed drill,
small platen presses and a narrow etcher to name a few. Perhaps that's where
you are going, but you best be ready to spend. Even if you pick all the
stuff up used, and there is plenty around, it will cost hundreds of
thousands. Just a plating shop alone is a huge investment before the
equipment even comes in the door!
The professional style boards you speak of, take Lucent for example, require
special equipment because of the layer count and board size. The drilling is
very specialized because of the aspect ratio and the 32 layer count they are
famous for. Then the etcher has to have all kinds of extra wheels to prevent
the thin cores from tangleing. The vacuum lamination press requires huge
platens, not to speak of the hundreds of amps at 480VAC.
The AOI machine, even used, would cost hundreds of thousands. Then there is
Electrical test, Fixturing, Engineering, Exposure units, LPI, Plasma
desmear.......
I can't imagine even getting started on building professional state of the
art boards such as the ones mentioned without millions in equipment costs.
A good argument for outsourcing huh!....Ross
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
So true, most of the big companies go to other big EMS companies to build
the boards and stuff them....
And like you say, most of us couldn't even squeeze a machine into their
garage not to mention the power requirements!

Plating lines are potential environmental disasters. The cost of
wastewater treatment is not low, though on a moderate size operation
(a few hundred employees) it doesn't amount to that much.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
R

Rene Tschaggelar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Kenjis said:
What exactly are the names of those machines used for making
multilayer PCBs? I am referring to those professional machines
big companies such as IBM, HPs, Lucents etc use to manufacture
PCBs for their goods. How much do these things costs new? used?

Lastly, do they make scaled down version for the average hobbyist
to buy (I know u are all gonna fall on the floor and laugh).

Have you ever been visiting such a company ?
We have some that also make 1 day courses, where they show
the processes involved. At the end of such a day with all
questions answered, you're glad that you can buy a 4 layer
prototype for in the order of 120Euro per dm^2 or perhaps less.

Rene
 
M

Mac

Jan 1, 1970
0
Average hobbyist, huh?

While we're at it, what is a decent PCB manufacturing line without a
chip fab? Why not add a little clean room with the necessary wafer
stepping, etching ion implanters, testers etc.? Hey, if you're not too
ambitious with the small geometries, you may be able to pick up a 1.2µm
line on ebay.

;-)

Cheers
Stefan

As an aside, where I went to school (San Jose State University, in
California) they actually had some small foundry and wafer fab equipment.
I just had a quick tour, and I don't know too much about it. I'm sure it
wasn't anywhere near 1.2 µm. ;-)


Mac
 
R

Ross Mac

Jan 1, 1970
0
Spehro Pefhany said:
Plating lines are potential environmental disasters. The cost of
wastewater treatment is not low, though on a moderate size operation
(a few hundred employees) it doesn't amount to that much.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
http://www.speff.com

To actually operate, staff and supply chemistry to the waste treatment area
is not one of the larger expenses unless there is a problem. Then you have
to haul off the chemistry at over $12,000 a truckload.
The plating shop, however, is very expensive. The chemistry is the #2
expense not to mention the maintenance. The #3 expense???....Drill bits and
in the #1 slot....material. I remember seeing a huge backplane of 52 layers
@ .430 thickness and 42" X 29". The order was for 4 boards and the material
was $11,000 !!!. You should have heard the screaming when it got scrapped on
a drill with a software bug. I just happened by the conference room and beat
a hasty retreat!!
 
R

Ross Mac

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rene Tschaggelar said:
Have you ever been visiting such a company ?
We have some that also make 1 day courses, where they show
the processes involved. At the end of such a day with all
questions answered, you're glad that you can buy a 4 layer
prototype for in the order of 120Euro per dm^2 or perhaps less.

Rene

I spent 30 years around that business and always got a kick out of the looks
on the young engineers faces. They always expect a circuit board shop to be
a simple operation. Then they walk in the drilling area and see 20 or so
20,000 pound machines drilling 8mil holes. A trip to AOI and they would see
a room with 4 million dollars worth of innerlayer inspection equipment. Then
the trip to the stinky old plating shop and there would be huge hoists doing
plating and electroless deposition..... Those places have become a bit of an
engineering nightmare with the current day board requirements.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
To actually operate, staff and supply chemistry to the waste treatment area
is not one of the larger expenses unless there is a problem. Then you have
to haul off the chemistry at over $12,000 a truckload.

Last I looked, one of our erstwhile suppliers was being sued by his
former landlord for C$2M for cleanup after they moved to larger
premises. ;-) There looks to be some capital cost there too, I think
another supplier told me $0.25 or $0.5M for half a roomful of
equipment.
The plating shop, however, is very expensive. The chemistry is the #2
expense not to mention the maintenance. The #3 expense???....Drill bits and
in the #1 slot....material. I remember seeing a huge backplane of 52 layers
@ .430 thickness and 42" X 29". The order was for 4 boards and the material
was $11,000 !!!. You should have heard the screaming when it got scrapped on
a drill with a software bug. I just happened by the conference room and beat
a hasty retreat!!

Ouch.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
B

Bob Stephens

Jan 1, 1970
0
http://www.speff.com

To actually operate, staff and supply chemistry to the waste treatment area
is not one of the larger expenses unless there is a problem. Then you have
to haul off the chemistry at over $12,000 a truckload.
The plating shop, however, is very expensive. The chemistry is the #2
expense not to mention the maintenance. The #3 expense???....Drill bits and
in the #1 slot....material. I remember seeing a huge backplane of 52 layers
@ .430 thickness and 42" X 29". The order was for 4 boards and the material
was $11,000 !!!. You should have heard the screaming when it got scrapped on
a drill with a software bug. I just happened by the conference room and beat
a hasty retreat!!

I've always assumed that the reason so many of the big board Fabs are
located in the same geographic area - outside of Chicago for example - must
be relaxed HAZMAT and environmental regulations for handling and disposing
of the "chemistry"

Bob
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've always assumed that the reason so many of the big board Fabs are
located in the same geographic area - outside of Chicago for example - must
be relaxed HAZMAT and environmental regulations for handling and disposing
of the "chemistry"

Bob

Dump it into the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal? I guess it's not as
bad as the Cuyahoga, which actually caught fire some years ago.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
R

Ross Mac

Jan 1, 1970
0
Spehro Pefhany said:
Last I looked, one of our erstwhile suppliers was being sued by his
former landlord for C$2M for cleanup after they moved to larger
premises. ;-) There looks to be some capital cost there too, I think
another supplier told me $0.25 or $0.5M for half a roomful of
equipment.


Ouch.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
http://www.speff.com

You have that right, many a shop gone busted have left the landlord with a
huge cleanup bill. I remember one place that the city came in and capped the
drains with cement and condemnded the building. The roof was then considered
hazardous waste! A lot of shop owners too, got hit with huge fines and jail
time......In California, they can jail the officers and owners. They used to
just hang the responsibility on the Environmental guys who...you guessed
it...worked for management....have a Happy New Year Spehro!.........Ross
 
R

Ross Mac

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Stephens said:
I've always assumed that the reason so many of the big board Fabs are
located in the same geographic area - outside of Chicago for example - must
be relaxed HAZMAT and environmental regulations for handling and disposing
of the "chemistry"

Bob

It doesn't appear to be the case or California wouldn't have any shops.
Though Mexico was becoming popular until China came on the scene big time!
Those countries have very loose requirements. I guess I just made your point
at some level....Happy New Year, Ross
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
You have that right, many a shop gone busted have left the landlord with a
huge cleanup bill. I remember one place that the city came in and capped the
drains with cement and condemnded the building. The roof was then considered
hazardous waste! A lot of shop owners too, got hit with huge fines and jail
time......In California, they can jail the officers and owners. They used to
just hang the responsibility on the Environmental guys who...you guessed
it...worked for management....have a Happy New Year Spehro!.........Ross

Same to you. A happy and prosperous 2K004 to all.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
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