Mimicking PADS or Protel layout software...

[billcalley]

Hi all,

My question goes to the heart of the low-cost layout software that
I would want to purchase (besides its dependability and features!),
and that is: Are there any low-cost layout software programs that can
both generate and import a PADS or Protel layout file reliably?
(Since if I had such software, then when a potential customer asked me
which layout package I used, PADS or Protel, I would not have to say
"Well, neither! I only have some unknown, low-end software that
outputs a format that you can't even read or modify later!"). Or is
there, at least, some "standard" intermediate file format that can be
transferred between all the various PCB layout packages?

Thanks,

-Bill

 

[[email protected]]

Hi all,

My question goes to the heart of the low-cost layout software that
I would want to purchase (besides its dependability and features!),
and that is: Are there any low-cost layout software programs that can
both generate and import a PADS or Protel layout file reliably?

Even the high-cost software can't do it properly. Hell sometimes they
can't even read their own formats from a previous version.

(Since if I had such software, then when a potential customer asked me
which layout package I used, PADS or Protel, I would not have to say
"Well, neither! I only have some unknown, low-end software that
outputs a format that you can't even read or modify later!"). Or is
there, at least, some "standard" intermediate file format that can be
transferred between all the various PCB layout packages?

Gerbers with a netlist file. Fun for hours.
Or ODB++.
http://www.valor.com/en/Products/ODBpp.aspx

 

[billcalley]

Even the high-cost software can't do it properly. Hell sometimes they
can't even read their own formats from a previous version.


Gerbers with a netlist file. Fun for hours.
Or ODB++.http://www.valor.com/en/Products/ODBpp.aspx

Thanks. Then I guess that means that no matter how good the lower-
end (i.e., affordable) PCB layout software is, a professional layout
engineer cannot really use anything other than PADS or Protel, since
they are the established current standards in the USA. A real shame
too, since these high-end packages cost so darn much!

Best,

-Bill

 

[Joel Koltner]

On Mar 13, 2:02 pm, [email protected] wrote:
"Then I guess that means that no matter how good the lower-
end (i.e., affordable) PCB layout software is, a professional layout
engineer cannot really use anything other than PADS or Protel, since
they are the established current standards in the USA."

If by "professional layout engineer" you mean someone who's independently
doing PCB layout on contract (rather than being a regular employee within a
company), you're probably right.

"A real shame
too, since these high-end packages cost so darn much!"

Some of the companies will provide a discount for contractors since they
realize that the regular prices are a bit much if you're PCB layout isn't the
only service you provide. However, it's always the initial purchase price
that's a killer -- even the high-end packages usually have maintenance fees
that are "only" somewhere in the "mid four-digits." If you're doing contract
work and the company expects you to be providing the CAD license, this isn't
too huge of a "cost of doing business."

Many low-end packages will export a PADS and, sometimes, Protel netlist (as
these are relatively easy features to provide). Importing is a lot harder
because importing a netlist without being able to import a footprint library
isn't generally useful, and importing footprint libraries is often a difficult
feature to provide (i.e., it takes a lot of time... especially with newer CAD
programs where pads can be relatively complex shapes).

---Joel

 

[David L. Jones]

Hi all,

My question goes to the heart of the low-cost layout software that
I would want to purchase (besides its dependability and features!),
and that is: Are there any low-cost layout software programs that can
both generate and import a PADS or Protel layout file reliably?

Not really. Even the big packages can't support all formats reliably.

(Since if I had such software, then when a potential customer asked me
which layout package I used, PADS or Protel, I would not have to say
"Well, neither! I only have some unknown, low-end software that
outputs a format that you can't even read or modify later!"). Or is
there, at least, some "standard" intermediate file format that can be
transferred between all the various PCB layout packages?

The only thing close to that is a Gerber file (and netlist), which is
what your customer would expect you to provide anyway. But it ranges
from easy to ridiculously messy to re-import Gerbers back into any
given package. Not to mention the schematic. So gerbers are not really
viable as a "transfer" format.

If you are "in the game" then you'll either have to cough up for the
big packages, or use a low end package and try to find customers who
don't care as much.

Dave.

 

[Brad Velander]

Bill,
Your shopping list for a low-cost package includes the single feature
that nobody offers. The ability to export into a competitive format. The
only functions anybody has is the ability to import competitive versions.
Their thinking, why would they give you the tools to abandon their software
easily? Then as well they are slaves from that point on to the competitiors
udates and upgrades whenever and however they come. It is one huge slippery
slope for so many reasons.
It could be likened to offering a warranty on a competitors product.

 

[Guy Macon]

Bill, Your shopping list for a low-cost package includes the
single feature that nobody offers. The ability to export into
a competitive format. The only functions anybody has is the
ability to import competitive versions. Their thinking, why
would they give you the tools to abandon their software
easily? Then as well they are slaves from that point on to
the competitors updates and upgrades whenever and however
they come.

Some of these vendors make changes to file formats that are
designed to break the importing capability of competitive
products. What makes this especially damaging to a design
engineer is the fact that some boards still in production
may have been created years earlier -- sometimes with a
mechanical CAD package.

The long term answer is to switch to an open source electronic
CAD system as soon as one that meets your needs is available.
The kicker is that each of has unique needs. One person might
require nothing less that on of the high end EDA products that
cost thousands and thousands of dollars per seat, while another
might do fine with a low-end product. If they meet your needs,
open-source EDA tools such as Kicad or gEDA will avoid many of
the above mentioned problems.

References:
http://archives.seul.org/geda/user/Aug-2005/msg00023.html
http://www.eedesign.com/resources/opensourcelinks.html
http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/resources/opensourcelinks.html
http://www.deepchip.com/edajumpzone.html

 

[Joel Koltner]

Your shopping list for a low-cost package includes the single feature
that nobody offers. The ability to export into a competitive format.

Pulsonix will export schematics in ORCAD format. Well, at least it tries
to... there are numerous glitches in the process, but in some cases it's
probably still faster than re-drawing the schematic by hand in ORCAD.
Pulsonix says they're not really actively developing the feature (i.e.,
removing bugs), so my suspicion is that someone paid them to add the feature
and either is happy with the current performance or else ran out of
time/interest/money.

It is one huge slippery slope for so many reasons.

Agreed. Importing data in other format is fraught with difficulties as
well... some companies, such as Mentor Graphics, seem to make various minor
changes to their netlist formats almost annually for what can either be seen
as (1) having a bunch of borderline-competent programmers around or (2)
wanting to break everyone's import routines as a means of gaining a
"competitive" edge. Interestingly, there's the exact same problem in the
mechanical CAD field. AutoCAD, of course, become so much of a standard that
there's a funded consortium (http://www.opendesign.com/) that builds libraries
to do nothing but read and write DXF/DXG files! The consortium was so
successful that Autodesk actually began ENCRYPTING users' designs files (!)
(...encryption that was shortly broken by the Open Design Alliance guys),
which has got to be about the most customer-unfriendly thing a software
company could ever do, in my view.

Although I wouldn't necessarily put it past, say, Microsoft to introduce some
new Office that used an undocumented encryption format to prevent, e.g.,
OpenOffice from reading it and try to pass it off as a security improvement
meant to help customers.

---Joel

 

[JeffM]

AutoCAD[...]become so much of a standard
that[...]www.opendesign.com[...]builds libraries
to do nothing but read and write DXF/DXG files!
The consortium was so successful that Autodesk
actually began ENCRYPTING users' designs files (!)
[. . .]
Although I wouldn't necessarily put it past, say, Microsoft to introduce
some new Office that used an undocumented encryption format
to prevent, e.g., OpenOffice from reading it
and try to pass it off as a security improvement meant to help customers.

You haven't been paying attention.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci....ocx+xlsx+OOXML+qq+broken-by-design+browse_frm

....though it's not overtly *encrypted*--it's even more insidious than
that:
M$ has created a fake "standard"--which isn't fully documented
http://www.google.com/search?q=OOXML+Defective-by-design&num=100
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...#Complaints_about_the_national_bodies_process
and are buying up support and using other dirty tricks
to try to ram it thru ISO approval.

 

[Joel Koltner]

Hi Jeff,

You haven't been paying attention.

Oh, sure I have...

...though it's not overtly *encrypted*--it's even more insidious than
that:
M$ has created a fake "standard"--which isn't fully documented

The more interesting question, though, is how much of the lack of
documentation is due to Microsoft purposely trying to be evil vs. how much is
due to incompetence? I very much agree with Rober Hanlon's saying, "Never
ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

---Joel

 

[Joel Koltner]

Jeff,

You've probably already seen it, but this is interesting reading if not:
http://ooxmlisdefectivebydesign.blogspot.com/

 

[JeffM]

The more interesting question, though, is how much of the lack of
documentation is due to Microsoft purposely trying to be evil
vs. how much is due to incompetence?
I very much agree with Rober Hanlon's saying,
"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Yup--and that's not even the BEST part of this whole deal.
Think: "software patents":
http://www.google.com/search?q=site...ge+covenant.not.to.sue+ambiguous.and.untested

 

[Guy Macon]

JeffM wrote...


The more interesting question, though, is how much of the lack of
documentation is due to Microsoft purposely trying to be evil vs.
how much is due to incompetence? I very much agree with Robert
Hanlon's saying, "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately
explained by stupidity."

In this case, Microsoft's actions are not adequately explained
by stupidity.

Consider for a moment my local grocery store. Every couple of
weeks I run into an item where the barcode price (which is what
I end up paying) does not match the human-readable price.
Care to guess how many times the barcode price was lower?
If you guessed zero you got it in one. Now for a bit of inside
information; when I was much younger I worked in a grocery store
on the graveyard shift crew and witnessed the process of resolving
such mismatches. The list was sorted so that first we corrected
every mismatch which cheated the store, and only when that task
was complete, corrected the mismatches that cheated the customer
--- if there was time. And, of course, when correcting one kind of
error overtime was always approved, but when correcting the other
kind of error overtime was never approved. Guess which?

Getting back to Microsoft, just as the bias in the prices at my
grocery store shows malice instead of stupidity, these various
tricks pulled off by Microsoft never, ever make it easier for
someone to compete with them, always harder. The web page at
[ http://ooxmlisdefectivebydesign.blogspot.com/ ] documents all
of this.

Another example: Making Vista suck so bad that I just downgraded
my latest laptop from Linux/Vista dualboot to Linux/XP dualboot
is adequately explained by stupidity. Convincing the laptop
manufacturer to delete previously-available XP drivers from their
support website in an attempt to force me to use Vista shows
malice.

 

[David Harmon]

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:42:00 +0000 in sci.electronics.cad, Guy Macon

Consider for a moment my local grocery store. Every couple of
weeks I run into an item where the barcode price (which is what
I end up paying) does not match the human-readable price.
Care to guess how many times the barcode price was lower?

All the time, since you said it is the price you end up paying. If
the scan price is higher, you (in California) get the item for free,
by law.

 

[James Morrison]

Hi all,

My question goes to the heart of the low-cost layout software that
I would want to purchase (besides its dependability and features!),
and that is: Are there any low-cost layout software programs that can
both generate and import a PADS or Protel layout file reliably?
(Since if I had such software, then when a potential customer asked me
which layout package I used, PADS or Protel, I would not have to say
"Well, neither! I only have some unknown, low-end software that
outputs a format that you can't even read or modify later!"). Or is
there, at least, some "standard" intermediate file format that can be
transferred between all the various PCB layout packages?

Hi Bill,

I've been trying to reply for about a week now but had some trouble with the
nntp access. I think that is all worked out now--we'll see.

Anyways, as others have mentioned, most CAD packages have a vested interest
in locking you into their file format. So not many play well with others
with binary file compatibility.

As for intermediate files, a very standard way to do this is with a PADS
netlist. Almost every tool supports this in some manner.

If you combine EAGLE with EET :: PADS Interface you can create PADS netlists
and ECO files from EAGLE schematic to transfer to external PCB editor or you
can import a PADS netlist into EAGLE PCB editor from any external schematic
(or other source). I've used it myself to do just that and it works quite
well.

Disclaimer: I am a dealer of EAGLE in North America (with online sales,
just rolling out right now) and I am the author and dealer of the EAGLE
Enterprise Toolkit (EET). So you know my bias. But I'm also an engineer
first and I use these tools to do some significant design.

Cheers,

James.

--
James Morrison
www.eagletoolkit.com
EAGLE Design Expert
North American Online EAGLE Dealer
EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit