Installing Resistors and the Concrete Home Saga

[Michael]

I just spent two days in Ge Security Training, formerly Ge Interlogix, and
learned a lot. They mentioned installing resistors, and I wanted to know
how ya'll professionals did it. From the class I gathered, some install the
resistors at the panel, others sodder them at the devices, while others
disable the software that requires them. What is the best thing to do, and
what is the best way to do it?

I finished the structured wiring for the poured concrete home I'm working
on, I'll start the security tomorrow and finish it when the doors are hung.
I learned that the drywall is hung on a metal strip that runs 12 inches on
center throughout the Styrofoam. To run my lines, I took a drill with bit
and used it to carve out my trench. Then once the wire is in place, you
take left over installation from the air conditioning install, cut it into
strips and place it over your wire. Then you fill in the rest of the gap
with spray can foam. This is what the electricians and plumbers did.

As far as installing the wire for the windows, the contractor told me to
drill diagonally to the window to get my line close. This proved
frustrating, since it was a guess as to the angle to take. Called the
contractor back up, and he said just drill as close as you can, then the
drywallers will notch the drywall, will see. I went to the outside of the
window and drilled in. This meant drilling through the concrete, but it
wasn't so bad. You should definitely charge more for this type of install.

Thanks to the group for the help.

 

[Allan Waghalter]

Michael,
I don't like to use End of Line Resistors for burg loops in residential
systems. To put a resistor in the panel is useless and if you actually put
it at the end of the line and you change panels in the future, the required
value may be different and it might be very difficult to get the switches or
other devices out to change the resistor without damaging your paint or
sacrificing the switch.

Just program the panel to not require resistors.
Allan

| I just spent two days in Ge Security Training, formerly Ge Interlogix, and
| learned a lot. They mentioned installing resistors, and I wanted to know
| how ya'll professionals did it. From the class I gathered, some install
the
| resistors at the panel, others sodder them at the devices, while others
| disable the software that requires them. What is the best thing to do,
and
| what is the best way to do it?
|
| I finished the structured wiring for the poured concrete home I'm working
| on, I'll start the security tomorrow and finish it when the doors are
hung.
| I learned that the drywall is hung on a metal strip that runs 12 inches on
| center throughout the Styrofoam. To run my lines, I took a drill with bit
| and used it to carve out my trench. Then once the wire is in place, you
| take left over installation from the air conditioning install, cut it into
| strips and place it over your wire. Then you fill in the rest of the gap
| with spray can foam. This is what the electricians and plumbers did.
|
| As far as installing the wire for the windows, the contractor told me to
| drill diagonally to the window to get my line close. This proved
| frustrating, since it was a guess as to the angle to take. Called the
| contractor back up, and he said just drill as close as you can, then the
| drywallers will notch the drywall, will see. I went to the outside of the
| window and drilled in. This meant drilling through the concrete, but it
| wasn't so bad. You should definitely charge more for this type of
install.
|
| Thanks to the group for the help.
|
| --
| Michael Patterson
| In Home Technology Inc.
|
|

 

[Frank Olson]

I just spent two days in Ge Security Training, formerly Ge Interlogix, and
learned a lot. They mentioned installing resistors, and I wanted to know
how ya'll professionals did it. From the class I gathered, some install the
resistors at the panel, others sodder them at the devices, while others
disable the software that requires them. What is the best thing to do, and
what is the best way to do it?

The "best way" is to use end-of-line resistors at the "end of the line". In
the case of contacts, you can order them with the resistors "embedded".
Most of the alarm wholesalers can bring them in for you in the values
required for your panel. GRI's are the most cost effective (I've found) in
that they don't make you order a huge fixed quantity.

http://www.grisk.com/specialty/eol_resistors.htm

I finished the structured wiring for the poured concrete home I'm working
on, I'll start the security tomorrow and finish it when the doors are hung.
I learned that the drywall is hung on a metal strip that runs 12 inches on
center throughout the Styrofoam. To run my lines, I took a drill with bit
and used it to carve out my trench. Then once the wire is in place, you
take left over installation from the air conditioning install, cut it into
strips and place it over your wire. Then you fill in the rest of the gap
with spray can foam. This is what the electricians and plumbers did.

As far as installing the wire for the windows, the contractor told me to
drill diagonally to the window to get my line close. This proved
frustrating, since it was a guess as to the angle to take. Called the
contractor back up, and he said just drill as close as you can, then the
drywallers will notch the drywall, will see. I went to the outside of the
window and drilled in. This meant drilling through the concrete, but it
wasn't so bad. You should definitely charge more for this type of install.

Thanks to the group for the help.

Interesting... I'm sure "someone" will be adding this info to his "FWA"...
)

 

[sarrons]

Wow! I am amazed, this is why we need standards in this industry. End
of line resistors are utilized to maintain four (4) state supervision.
Open, closed, short and cut. If you place the resistors at the panel,
the wire could be cut, and the alarm system would not know the
difference, becuase the resistor is at the front of the loop. That is
why they call it END-of Line "the end of the loop".

I reccommend utilizing end-of line resistors at the end of device. USe
fast clips to secure. You don't have to sodder.

It is also a misnomor to beleive that these loops dont carry any
power. If this were true, how could we cause resistance with
resistors?

just some comments, hope the help.

 

[pudding]

For any do it yourself alarm installers, anyone who tells you to install
resistors anywhere other than at the device doesnt deserve to be in the
business. I cant believe some of these replies.

 

[Aegis]

For any do it yourself alarm installers, anyone who tells you to install
resistors anywhere other than at the device doesnt deserve to be in the
business. I cant believe some of these replies.

If you take a pair to the device AND a pair back (or 4 conductor in one
sheath) and put the resister at the END-OF-LINE and inside the panel, as
Rodney suggested, you'll make your life a lot easier in the long run
(service and change-outs) AND still provide maximum supervision. Very much
like a Class A fire loop.

 

[Aegis]

For any do it yourself alarm installers, anyone who tells you to install

Just noticed this line because I was thinking "how can THIS guy be 'in the
business' and not know about this method". Had to go back and check... So
you are a DIY.. Makes sense... Now listen to how the REAL pro's do things
and learn...

 

[Jackcsg]

Real pro's...or ADT. UL and Manufacturers specifications are they way it's
done. That's why its called an "End-Of-Line" resistor, not a
"Loop-Out-and-Back-Put-It-In-The-Box" resistor, or "ITB". I guess when you
expose everything anyway...I see your point. Nevermind.

Jack

 

[petem]

you are right about being easier to service...

one thing to consider with that setup is to use 2 diferent cable ..cause if
a 4 wire cable is used, a short betwen 2 of the 4 wire could disable the
whole loop...

(of course a good security system owner should test all his zone
weekly...;-)
but we all know that they dont...;-)

 

[A.J.]

Draw it out on paper Pudding, you will see that it is true end of line
supervision. Having been a service technician for many years I will say that I
see many advantages to such an installation. Perhaps others will agree who
have been in the industry for many years.

Rodney

Yes, draw it out and you will realise that with the 4 wire connection and
the EOL resistor inside the panel, is not the same as having the EOL
resistor at the end of the line on a two wire loop. The electrical
characteristic between the two is exactly the same, but in terms of
supervising the wire from point A to point B, the EOL resistor has to be at
the device.


Lemme explain :-

4 wire example :

Yellow + Green going out to device 50 feet away, and loops back with the Red
+ Black and EOL resistor at the end of the Red + Black inside the panel ....
everything seems fine ? Good .... Now I will take a staple gun, 10 feet from
the panel and shoot a staple right thru the quad where it just happen to hit
the yellow and red and short them together, at the same time also cut off
the device end of the circuit. Futher down the run 20 feet away, I shoot
another staple and just happen I am so good and I hit the yellow and black
and short them together. So now tell me, what do you see at the panel ? A
perfert circuit, minus the device.

Either do it properly, or not do it at all.

 

[spike]

fast clips?

Wow! I am amazed, this is why we need standards in this industry. End
of line resistors are utilized to maintain four (4) state supervision.
Open, closed, short and cut. If you place the resistors at the panel,
the wire could be cut, and the alarm system would not know the
difference, becuase the resistor is at the front of the loop. That is
why they call it END-of Line "the end of the loop".

I reccommend utilizing end-of line resistors at the end of device. USe
fast clips to secure. You don't have to sodder.

It is also a misnomor to beleive that these loops dont carry any
power. If this were true, how could we cause resistance with
resistors?

just some comments, hope the help.

 

[fly in the ointment]

spike wrote

fast clips?

Yeah, The kind that run with the "wrong" group of clips.
js

 

[Frank Olson]

AJ,

I disagree with your insistence on putting the EOLR at the device. Having been
in this industry over twenty years now I have never , to the best of my
knowledge, ran into such a scenario. The benefits of having a four conductor
wire with EOLR at the panel V EOLR at the Device on a two conductor wire isn't
even a consideration to me personally. I am sure that those that have the
service experience will chime in here and give you their expert opinions on the
matter.

Rodney

Sorry Rodney... We use contacts with embedded EOL's and put the panel EOL's
inside all powered devices (PIR's, Glass Breaks, etc.). Putting a normally
closed surface contact in a loop such as you describe would be as easy to
compromise as one programmed for "no EOL". That plainly won't do.

 

[A.J.]

Rodney,


I have never ran into such a scenario either, but do you agree that it is a
possibility that it can happen ? Do you agree that the "4 wire quad "
connection is "not exactly" the same as the two wire connection (hence my
original post) ?

The alarm systems is for the benefits of the customers, not to benefit the
installer in ease of servicing. If you are whinning about having to put a
single end of line resistor at the device, wait till you have to do a UL/ULC
installation where you actually have to install two resistors at the device
and enable DEOL feature on the control panel. I am not saying that everybody
should use EOL resistor at the end of line for their install, what I am
trying to say is, if you are going to use EOL resistor, put it at the
device, or don't use EOL at all.

AJ,

I disagree with your insistence on putting the EOLR at the device.

Having been

 

[pudding]

Couldnt have put it better myself. The correct way is to put the resistor
End Of Line. It will work lots of other ways but just working is not what
the industry is about.
Installing using correct methods that minimises the possibility of tampering
occuring is what we should be striving towards. Not an easy fix. Just like
installing a detector at the correct height not up higher just because we
cant be bothered to spend the extra time ususally involved in getting a
detector down to the correct height.

Dont you guys over in America/ Canada etc have a book of standard you have
to adhere to.
Our Australian standards are pretty clear on end of line resistors and about
tamper circuits, and how many devices you can put on the same circuit etc.
Your industry is more advanced than ours so I would expect you would have
similar rules.

Insurance companies over here would love to find out that an installer hasnt
correctly installed an alarm system so they have a way out of paying, or
even sue us for their losses.

 

[Jackcsg]

Good lord. Intelligence. I was starting to loose hope.
Too-shay - A.J.

Jack

 

[Jackcsg]

Here's one. A.J. is right. As soon as most dealers realize there's more than
one box/type of wire needed for correctly installing a system, you'd get
past it. It's not a bad way of doing it...it's just the wrong way, which is
common in this industry.

Jack

 

[A.J.]

And even if everybody has been doing it for the past 20 years does not make
it correct either.

 

[Jayne Larsen]

Having done installs for police and goverment-- End of Line means exactly
that
Rigpig (Chris Larsen)

 

[Aegis]

I said LIKE a Class A fire loop, not equivalent.

A class A fire loop should remain operational with a single open or a single
ground anywhere in the circuit, the circuit described by Rodney wouldn't do
that. Thats not to say its not a good suggestion by Rodney, but it doesn't
give any better supervision than if the resistor was at the device, it just
makes it easier to service.

Doug L


Aegis wrote