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Heat a Two Car Garage -- Quartz Heaters

W

W. Watson

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not entirely
happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want to
driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to get more fuel. I
think he might be better off with electric. I checked at the local h/w
store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about them. Are they
more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two Holmes large
quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.

Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"W. Watson"
I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not
entirely happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I
wouldn't want to driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to
get more fuel. I think he might be better off with electric. I checked at
the local h/w store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about
them. Are they more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used
two Holmes large quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm.
Comments.


** Firstly - it is very dangerous to use a portable kerosene or propane
heater in an enclosed space - but perfectly safe to use an electric one
since it creates NO hydrocarbon fumes or CO2 gass.

Electric heaters all have inherently the same conversion efficiency =
100% - ie all the electrical energy is converted into heat. One with
fans will spread the heat around better, ones that only radiate will warm
what is in front of them better.

How much heat you need depends entirly on the size and construction of the
garage, plus how well insulated it is. The fact that you can pretty much
seal the place up tight with electric heaters inside means mush less heat is
needed than with fuel heaters that require the space to have good
ventilation.

Another issue is the amount of electric power available in the garage - it
may not be enough for 2 large heaters unless additional circuits are
installed.




........ Phil
 
B

Bob

Jan 1, 1970
0
W. Watson said:
I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not entirely
happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want to
driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to get more fuel. I
think he might be better off with electric. I checked at the local h/w
store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about them. Are they
more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two Holmes large
quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.

Last time I looked the cost of electric energy far exceeded the cost of
chemical
energy.

Here the cost of heating a home with electricy is far higher than using
piped
gas. I'm fairly certain electric heating is also more expensive to run
than
bottled gas unless your transportation costs are unusually high.
I can't be bothered to search for figures right now.

Bob
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Bob"
Last time I looked the cost of electric energy far exceeded the cost of
chemical energy.


** Bollocks.

The domestic tariffs for gas supply and electric power, when based on
heating effect in MJ or kWh, are very similar in most places. 1 MJ =
0.28 kWh.

Here the cost of heating a home with electricy is far higher than using
piped gas.


** Go nothing to do with using a portable fuel heater in a garage -
dickhead.

I'm fairly certain ...


** No you are not.

I can't be bothered to search for figures right now.


** Then shut up and **** off.



....... Phil
 
H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
W. Watson said:
I think he might be better off with electric. I checked at the local h/w
store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about them. Are they
more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two Holmes large
quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.

The big advantage of these radiators is that you can get warm without
heating the air or the contents of the garage. Compare the cost of
electricity with that of gas etc. but I suspect you will find that for an
un-insulated garage the quartz radiators are more efficient and safer. We
just had 2 boys die trying to refuel a generator in a garage - carbon
monoxide got them.
 
D

Daniel Mandic

Jan 1, 1970
0
W. Watson said:
I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes
it warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's
not entirely happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his
shoes, I wouldn't want to driving back to the h/w store every few
days or week to get more fuel. I think he might be better off with
electric. I checked at the local h/w store, and they have a quart
heater. Don't know much about them. Are they more efficient than
non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two Holmes large quartz headers
(1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.

Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet



Hi there!


I guess he have a car.

A fitting oven, burned by coal or better wood. Heats nice and the costs
are the lowest. Can be fueled various... paper, wood, pellets, coal,
koks etc...


If he likes it warm.


Best Regards,

Daniel Mandic

P.S.: can be outworked to a full pipe system... so he have something to
do meanwhile, too. :) (To reduce to oven-dimensions even more!)
 
W

W. Watson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Perhaps a little Googling helps here.

From <http://www.ecohousewares.com/faq/PortableElectricHeaters.html#pe2>
A Radiant Heater is the second type of technology where heat is emitted from
infrared radiation. Radiant heaters encompass metal-rod and *quartz* units.
The surface can range from a glowing panel of a gas heater, a concrete slab,
a bar radiator, or an open fire. This heat directly warms people and objects
in the room, rather than warming the air. Radiant heaters are not
recommended for a large space. They are also ideal for basements and garages
since they are good at spot heating.

[I guess they don't consider a garage a large space. Use of spot heating.]

Quartz Heaters use electric elements packed inside a quartz glass tube that
radiates heat to warm people and objects. These are best used for spot
heating. Sometimes they can be a fire hazard because they are fragile and
easily broken.

And these
<http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...-home--safely-11-06/overview/1106_heat_ov.htm>.
<http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/463.html>
 
H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Quartz Heaters use electric elements packed inside a quartz glass tube
that radiates heat to warm people and objects. These are best used for
spot heating. Sometimes they can be a fire hazard because they are fragile
and easily broken.

They're best mounted up high. Useful for a church, say, used once a week for
a few hours but very large and hard to heat.
 
S

Skeptic

Jan 1, 1970
0
Recently while replacing my air conditioning unit I opted not to buy a heat
pump to augment my gas furnace. The salesman said that at temperatures
above freezing it was cheaper to operate a heat pump than use gas. I asked
him if that were true, why not just use heating elements instead of
resorting to a heat pump. He said that heat pumps were actually more
efficient than heating elements. Believing the same as your post that
electrical heat was already 100% efficient, I didn't buy the salesman's
explanation. Was I wrong or was he?
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Skeptic"
Recently while replacing my air conditioning unit I opted not to buy a
heat pump to augment my gas furnace. The salesman said that at
temperatures above freezing it was cheaper to operate a heat pump than use
gas. I asked him if that were true, why not just use heating elements
instead of resorting to a heat pump. He said that heat pumps were
actually more efficient than heating elements. Believing the same as your
post that electrical heat was already 100% efficient, I didn't buy the
salesman's explanation. Was I wrong or was he?


** Google and Wiki are your friends.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump




........ Phil
 
H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Skeptic said:
Recently while replacing my air conditioning unit I opted not to buy a
heat pump to augment my gas furnace. The salesman said that at
temperatures above freezing it was cheaper to operate a heat pump than use
gas. I asked him if that were true, why not just use heating elements
instead of resorting to a heat pump. He said that heat pumps were
actually more efficient than heating elements. Believing the same as your
post that electrical heat was already 100% efficient, I didn't buy the
salesman's explanation. Was I wrong or was he?

You were wrong. Under some circumstances you can get all the heat expected
from the power used plus twice as much again. You won't achieve this with a
whole house unit, but it is a very effective solution down to a certain
temperature. After that you need an alternative source of heat UNLESS you
have a geothermal heat pump ("Direct Exchange" or "DX" system) which will
work at any outside temperature but is hard to retrofit to an existing
house.

If you don't have ducts in your house a Ductless Split System Air
Conditioner is very good and can be had in heat pump models.

http://www.sheltertech.com/ductless_split_a_c__system.htm
 
S

Skeptic

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks to both Phil and Homer. I guess I should have posted here before I
replaced the unit.

Skeptic.
 
J

jasen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Recently while replacing my air conditioning unit I opted not to buy a heat
pump to augment my gas furnace. The salesman said that at temperatures
above freezing it was cheaper to operate a heat pump than use gas. I asked
him if that were true, why not just use heating elements instead of
resorting to a heat pump. He said that heat pumps were actually more
efficient than heating elements. Believing the same as your post that
electrical heat was already 100% efficient, I didn't buy the salesman's
explanation. Was I wrong or was he?

heat pumps steal heat from outside and release it inside, this is how they
exceed the heating efficiency of 100% efficient resistive heating.

Bye.
Jasen
 
D

Dave

Jan 1, 1970
0
W. Watson said:
I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not
entirely happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I
wouldn't want to driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to
get more fuel. I think he might be better off with electric. I checked at
the local h/w store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about
them. Are they more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two
Holmes large quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.

First off, you must be in the UK, as that wattage would be prohibitive on a
115V/15A North American residential circuit. Even at 120V you'd still pull
15.6A.

As far as heating ability goes, I've owned several kerosene heaters, they
tend to be rated 20-25,000 BTU. 1875 watts works out to about 6400 btu's,
so two of your electrics would put out ~13,000 or just over half of what a
kerosene heater puts out. Where I live (Canada) kerosene is pretty darn
cheap compared to electricity.

Let's face it, folks: kerosene heaters are designed to operate INDOORS. Do
you think that these things designed for pumping 25,000 btu's per hour into
the atmosphere outside? It's a HEATER, of course you're going to use it
inside. I'd venture that the OP's "elderly neighbor" does NOT have an
airtight garage which could pose a ventilation/asphyxiation problem. I have
used my kerosene heater in my home and in my garage thousands of times. I
will qualify that by saying I've always lived in older homes with too much
ventilation in the winter (read "drafty") BUT there is NOTHING inherently
wrong with using a kerosene heater indoors.

Three rules for kerosene:

1. Never fuel the heater when it's hot
2. Never fuel the heater indoors
3. Always buy type 1-K fuel (most pure).

Personally, I might add a fourth rule:

4. Light the heater outside. They smoke like a b#st#rd when you first
light them for the first minute or so.

Dave
 
D

Don Young

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
First off, you must be in the UK, as that wattage would be prohibitive on
a 115V/15A North American residential circuit. Even at 120V you'd still
pull 15.6A.

As far as heating ability goes, I've owned several kerosene heaters, they
tend to be rated 20-25,000 BTU. 1875 watts works out to about 6400 btu's,
so two of your electrics would put out ~13,000 or just over half of what a
kerosene heater puts out. Where I live (Canada) kerosene is pretty darn
cheap compared to electricity.

Let's face it, folks: kerosene heaters are designed to operate INDOORS.
Do you think that these things designed for pumping 25,000 btu's per hour
into the atmosphere outside? It's a HEATER, of course you're going to use
it inside. I'd venture that the OP's "elderly neighbor" does NOT have an
airtight garage which could pose a ventilation/asphyxiation problem. I
have used my kerosene heater in my home and in my garage thousands of
times. I will qualify that by saying I've always lived in older homes
with too much ventilation in the winter (read "drafty") BUT there is
NOTHING inherently wrong with using a kerosene heater indoors.

Three rules for kerosene:

1. Never fuel the heater when it's hot
2. Never fuel the heater indoors
3. Always buy type 1-K fuel (most pure).

Personally, I might add a fourth rule:

4. Light the heater outside. They smoke like a b#st#rd when you first
light them for the first minute or so.

Dave
Your fourth rule may or may not be in conflict with my first rule:
1. Never move the heater when it is burning.

Don Young
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
"Bob"


** Bollocks.

The domestic tariffs for gas supply and electric power, when based on
heating effect in MJ or kWh, are very similar in most places. 1 MJ =
0.28 kWh.

I wish !

Electricity is ~ 3-4 x times the price per kWh of natural gas here ( UK ).

Graham
 
D

Dave

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Young said:
Your fourth rule may or may not be in conflict with my first rule:
1. Never move the heater when it is burning.

Don Young
Choose your poison.

It's not hot when you first light it so you're not going to burn yourself.
All modern heaters are equipped with tip-over shut-offs in case you should,
I don't know, trip down a flight of stairs with it.
 
T

terry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
Choose your poison.

It's not hot when you first light it so you're not going to burn yourself.
All modern heaters are equipped with tip-over shut-offs in case you should,
I don't know, trip down a flight of stairs with it.
..
Two comments on this.

1) If the garage is only in use for a few hours a week the cost of the
fuel, whether it be kerosene, propane or electricity, may not be a
major factor or concern. For example a difference, for the colder
months, of maybe five quid/ ten bucks a week maybe incidental. Perhaps
a difference for a whole season of 50 to 150 dollars? Electricity is
convenient and relatively safe; no lighting or pilots, no fumes or
exhaust (CO) etc. Also in this day and age some stricter environmental
rules about spilled fuel and/or leaking tanks, oil barrels and or fuel
lines! Most insurance policies don't cover!
Electric heaters can be fixed baseboard, or fan directed towards work
area, or portable with tip-over switches or quartz 'radiant heat'.
An exhaustive discussion about the relative cost of fuel for something
that is in use on average for a couple of hours a day ( 30 to 60 hours
per month?) maybe only academic?
We have used up to a 4800 watt 230 volt blower heater in attached
garage and in our boat on cradle next to garage. Calculating that
whenever we have it on it will cost no more than 50 cents (Canadian)
per hour; which is usually a rather minor incidental cost compared to
the repair we are doing and the saving by working on our own
vehicle/boat! Usually too, except in the coldest weather the heater may
not run continuously anyway. So if we are out there working on
something for a couple of winter evenings, say 8 to 10 hours total we
are talking maybe $4 to $5!

2) We do have an emergency kerosene heater filled and ready to run in
the hall closet. However our highly reliable electricity has not failed
for long enough in recent 3 to 5 years to ever use it. It is the type
that has to be taken outside to refill. We gave our previous one to a
daughter whose husband often works off shore and may therefore not be
home, because that one had a removable tank that could lifted out and
refilled outside.
If/when we use our emergency kerosene heater it is placed on a
noncombustible steel panel near the fireplace, the flue is opened and
fire extinguisher nearby. Also we never sleep with it burning. Been too
many CO accidents due to misuse of non vented fuel burning appliances
inside!
Including one elderly couple who apparently took their propane barbecue
inside their house, used up all the oxygen and killed themselves!
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not entirely
happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want to
driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to get more fuel. I
think he might be better off with electric. I checked at the local h/w
store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about them. Are they
more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two Holmes large
quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.

Before I'd jump in like that, I'd take a really close look at what either
one actually costs to run - I've read somewhere that resistance heating is
the least efficient use of electricity that anybody has yet come up with.

As long as the ventilation is good so he doesn't get asphyxiated, I'd
suggest staying with the propane, and get it in bigger tanks; barring
that, I'd go for a heat pump.

I've lived in a travel trailer, and, although it was California, we
still needed heat during the rainy season, but it'd take me well over
a month to go through 5 gallons of propane; but propane was about a
buck a gallon at the time, but on the other hand I used it to cook
and heat water too.

Good Luck!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
heat pumps steal heat from outside and release it inside, this is how they
exceed the heating efficiency of 100% efficient resistive heating.

A heat pump works like a fridge, but inside-out. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
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