grid connected system w/ no grid power question

[Mike Payne]

I'm new to this stuff but I've started reading about it. One question I
have is if I buy\install a grid connected system and I have no batteries
connected, can I still use the PV generated power when the grid goes down?
Or can this only be done with batteries?

thanks,

mike
florida

 

[SJC]

I'm new to this stuff but I've started reading about it. One question I
have is if I buy\install a grid connected system and I have no batteries
connected, can I still use the PV generated power when the grid goes down?
Or can this only be done with batteries?

thanks,

mike
florida

Grid tied inverters have "islanding circuits" that isolate the inverter
from the grid in case of grid power failure. I don't know of any that
provide UPS (uninteruptable power supply) features. Even if they did,
you would probably want a battery bank for transient load conditions.

 

[Steve Spence]

I'm new to this stuff but I've started reading about it. One question I
have is if I buy\install a grid connected system and I have no batteries
connected, can I still use the PV generated power when the grid goes down?
Or can this only be done with batteries?

thanks,

mike
florida

you need a battery/grid system. a grid only system shuts down if there
is no grid.

 

[Steve Spence]

Here is a unit.

http://www.beaconpower.com/products/SolarInverterSystems/docs/SmartPower_M5_0704_lowres.pdf

A trace/xantrex sw4024 works just fine.

 

[Steve Spence]

The xantrex sw4024 does not work at all. No grid-tie

Thanks for playing, please try again:

http://www.affordable-solar.com/trswseiiin.html

 

[Mike Payne]

Thanks for the answers. I guess I was hoping that I wouldn't have to deal
with batteries at all but would still be able to use the array if the grid
was down. Sounds like the answer is no such luck. I can picture my
neighbors laughing at me now the next time the power goes out. "You mean
you bought an expensive solar power system that doesn't work if the power is
out?"

 

[Steve Spence]

Thanks for the answers. I guess I was hoping that I wouldn't have to deal
with batteries at all but would still be able to use the array if the grid
was down. Sounds like the answer is no such luck. I can picture my
neighbors laughing at me now the next time the power goes out. "You mean
you bought an expensive solar power system that doesn't work if the power is
out?"

If you use the Xantrex sw series inverters, you can add the batteries
later. It can be used in a grid tie or grid/battery, or battery only setup.

 

[wmbjk]

The xantrex sw4024 does not work at all. No grid-tie

Wow. Can't get more wrong than that Gymmy Bob. If there's a nitwit
hall of fame then you just nominated yourself again.

Wayne

 

[Jim Baber]

Jim Baber Summary
I noticed that Mike may have given up

I'm new to this stuff but I've started reading about it. One question I
have is if I buy\install a grid connected system and I have no batteries
connected, can I still use the PV generated power when the grid goes down?
Or can this only be done with batteries?

thanks,

mike
florida

Mike Payne wrote later:

Thanks for the answers. I guess I was hoping that I wouldn't have to deal
with batteries at all but would still be able to use the array if the grid
was down. Sounds like the answer is no such luck.

Slow up, there are solutions that do require batteries: But they will
also use the grid.

* Xantrex sw4024
* Beacon M5
* Sunny Island (SMA America)

In my opinion this is probably the best way to go. In fact I know that
the Sunny Island which is only 4300 W at 120 VAC capacity can be used to
provide the synchronization signals to allow my other SMA Sunny Boy
inverters to produce their full capacity at 240 VAC from their solar
panels during a daylight power grid outage. In my case this would mean
my full 10kW at 240 VAC. In fact, although I do NOT need any additional
kW at this time.

We are considering replacing our cars with plug-in hybrid vehicles as
soon as they are available at an acceptable cost, and at that time we
might add a Sunny Light Inverter / Controller with enough capacity to
support our additional power usage (the 2nd car would need 6 kW a day
more than we produce now). Adding additional power with the Sunny Light
would allow us to also have light duty (4300W @ 120 VAC standby power
for a 24 hour period, with full load standby capability in most daylight
hours.

<> I can picture my neighbors laughing at me now the next time the
power goesout. "You mean
you bought an expensive solar power system that doesn't work if the
power is
out?"

Why would they know or care about the batteries? Your system would be
providing your power for you, even at night if you sized your battery
string right. This does also have a great advantage over an off grid PV
system, Your batteries will last much better. The grid will be used to
keep them correctly charged, regardless of the possible shortage or lack
of sunlight, unless the grid is actually down long enough to exhaust
your batteries.

--
Jim Baber
Email [email protected]
1350 W Mesa Ave.
Fresno CA, 93711
(559) 435-9068
(559) 905-2204 (Verizon IN cellphone (to other Verizon IN accounts))
See 10kW grid tied solar system at "http://www.baber.org/solarpanels.jpg"
See solar system production data at "http://www.baber.org/solar_status.htm"

 

[Me]

The xantrex sw4024 does not work at all. No grid-tie

and here again SolarFart, lets out his belch of nonsense, straight from
his ASS....

My Trace SW4024 certainly does do GridTie and Sellback.... maybe it is
just yours that doesn't do this, but since my 4024 is an very early
version, i would expect that the rest of them, have the same or better
operations....

Me a Trace 4024 owner, for over a decade....

 

[Mike Payne]

I think you are missing the point. I know there are solutions that require
batteries. I was hoping for a solution that would not require me to buy or
maintain batteries yet still allow me to use the generated power from the
array when the grid is up or down.

I don't care if my neighbors know about my batteries. I just don't want to
have to buy, store, or maintain batteries just for the few times the grid is
down.

mike

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the answers. I guess I was hoping that I wouldn't have to
deal with batteries at all but would still be able to use the array if
the grid was down. Sounds like the answer is no such luck. I can
picture my neighbors laughing at me now the next time the power goes out.
"You mean you bought an expensive solar power system that doesn't work if
the power is out?"

No such luck.
When the AC power is lost, a grid-tie inverter is supposed to shut off
"immediately", to prevent power from being fed to a portion of the grid
that might have been deliberately shut down for maintenance.

The simple answer is "That was an extra cost option".

Without battery backup, your system might be incapable of supplying the
instantaneous demand from different loads in your house anyway.

I wanted to run mine in parallel with the 5000 watt generator that I have
on hand. I presumed that the generator would be able to idle while the
panels supplied the bulk of my power. I haven't tried yet, but I've been
told it won't work. It won't be a clean enough AC signal.

 

[Steve Spence]

I think you are missing the point. I know there are solutions that require
batteries. I was hoping for a solution that would not require me to buy or
maintain batteries yet still allow me to use the generated power from the
array when the grid is up or down.

I don't care if my neighbors know about my batteries. I just don't want to
have to buy, store, or maintain batteries just for the few times the grid is
down.

mike

If you want to use power when the grid is down, it has to come from
somewhere. PV can charge batteries, but it's not good at powering loads.
Therefore you need batteries. You don't need to "maintain" them. AGM's
are maintenance free.

 

[Antipodean Bucket Farmer]

I think you are missing the point. I know there are solutions that require
batteries. I was hoping for a solution that would not require me to buy or
maintain batteries yet still allow me to use the generated power from the
array when the grid is up or down.

I don't care if my neighbors know about my batteries. I just don't want to
have to buy, store, or maintain batteries just for the few times the grid is
down.

If ever did a grid-tie system, I would at least have a small out-
age backup. That would be, at minimum, a marine 12-volt, or pair
of 6-volt golf-car batteries. Plus compatible charge controller
and inverter that would work without grid-power.

If I want/need reliability, then having my computer reboot/shut-
down every time a cloud passes by, won't work. And, "no-power-
after-sundown" won't work, either.

The fact that you, "just don't want to have to buy, store, or
maintain batteries just for a few times the grid is down," is
simply irrelevant. What works does *not* have some imaginary
contract to agree with what you "want," or, "don't want."

Also, your other comment...

I definitely WOULD care if my neighbours knew about any
electrical backups that I may have. Or related things, like
extra food stores, or even a money savings account.

There are lots and lots of irresponsible parasites out there.
And they will look for any prospective hosts in the vicinity.
Looking to use their neighbour/"friend" status to demand that you
hand over your resources. And they will feel entitled to
"punish" you as aggressively as possible, if they perceive you as
withholding resources and "depriving" them of their, "needs."

It can be during a general crisis (power blackout), or it can be
just because they individually had a personal problem (wasted all
their money on crap, and are hungry now.)

I have (recently) seen the attitude in a nice, respectable,
middle-class suburb. And it is just as disgusting as when I was
the target in a poor-inner-city slum.

 

[Mike Payne]

No power tools but it would be nice to power the frig, ceiling fans, and
charge the cell phones. I have a generator for running the power tools but
it makes a lot of noise so I'd like to leave it off as much as possible.

I would like to thank everyone again for the answers. Foolish me I thought
one yes or no reply was all I would get to a simple yes or no question.

mike

 

[[email protected]]

Isn't it 2006, now, domain-in-sig? ;-)

If ever did a grid-tie system, I would at least have a small out-
age backup. That would be, at minimum, a marine 12-volt, or pair
of 6-volt golf-car batteries. Plus compatible charge controller
and inverter that would work without grid-power.

Pretty much everyone has a car or two that come equipped with batteries.

All you need to do is add a < $100 inverter to power some things in the
short term.

I have a 15 watt panel and a single standard automobile battery on a $20
charge controller, feeding a $20 175 watt inverter in my barn.

During a minimal power outage, the battery and inverter can be hauled down
to the house to keep a couple of lights on. Last summer, that kept a 20"
box fan running during a summertime outage.

If I want/need reliability, then having my computer reboot/shut-
down every time a cloud passes by, won't work. And, "no-power-
after-sundown" won't work, either.

During a power outage, I took my laptop up to the barn with me.
I used a cell phone for GPRS internet connection, and powered the cell
phone charger and the laptop from my 175 watt inverter for most of the day.

The fact that you, "just don't want to have to buy, store, or
maintain batteries just for a few times the grid is down," is
simply irrelevant. What works does *not* have some imaginary
contract to agree with what you "want," or, "don't want."

Or, what you want must to be tailored to what you will put up with.
I can't run the fridge from the inverter that I have. A larger inverter
would require more batteries, or running the car engine occasionally.

I have a 5000 watt generator that will power the whole house but I don't
"want" to run it because it is objectionably noisy, but if the power outage
lasts more than a day, my desire to keep the meat cold in the fridge
overrides my want of quiet. I don't have the cutover transfer switch
installed at this house, and my grid-tie solar system got me started
thinking about it again.

I chose to accept the occasional outage and minimal backup power instead of
paying the additional money to add batteries to my grid-tie system.

If I were still at my last location, where power outages were more frequent
and longer, if I had put in solar, I would have added the battery backup.

I definitely WOULD care if my neighbours knew about any
electrical backups that I may have. Or related things, like
extra food stores, or even a money savings account.

Kind of hard to hide the solar panels, or the lights that are on with no
generator when everyone else is dark. At my last place, one of my
neighbors asked what kind of power I had at my place, when he saw lights
in all the windows during a power outage. It was a Coleman lantern ;-)

 

[Me]

according to the manufacturer, you need a GTI unit. The SW4024 does
not grid-tie.

Are you sure of what you purchased?

Yes, I am absolulty sure of what I purchased, and absolutly sure of how
my 4024 operates. You see, SolarFart, you just don't have the
institutional knowledge of the product, and therefor don't know the
history of the SW40xx series inverters from Trace. All your knowledge
comes from reading the CURRENT borchure, which doesn't show the history
of the product, only where Xantrec is today. They bought Trace from the
previous owners and soon after the whole Desgin Group walked out the
door, moved outback, and down the street a few miles and started a new
inverter company, no suprise to us, but maybe to you, called OutBack
Power Products. The GTI Unit you read about, was instituted to make the
Version 2 SW40xx series Inverters, and firmware, UL Compliant. It is
not needed for Version 1 units, and also not required by some untilities
for Legal Gridtie.

So again you blather on, about things you don't understand, as if you
were the Knowldge King of that product. This is why most folks read
your stuff, and ROtFL for an hour ot two, then killfile you as
unKnowledgable.

SolarFart needs to have is significant other write across his forhead
with MagicMarker " Mooroooon" (Bugs Bunny Definition)


Me

 

[Steve Spence]

Thanks for losing the game. Try reading your own URL again.

The GTI unit provides grid-tie not the SW4024.

I don't need links because I use this stuff. The GTI is an integrated
part of the SW4024. You need links, because you have no experience.

 

[Steve Spence]

according to the manufacturer, you need a GTI unit. The SW4024 does
not grid-tie.

Are you sure of what you purchased?

Maybe you should stick to what you know, instead of misreading data sheets.

 

[Steve Spence]

Then you should make contradictions with guesses.

Denial at it's finest.

hmm... I said the sw4024 does grid tie, you said it didn't, I proved it
to you, and you say I'm in denial. wow.