GhostScript/GhostView ??

[Robert Latest]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]

Rebooted. Opened OO, did something in a document, closed it. Now I had
several MB less RAM available.

What could be happening here is that OO leaves an inactive chunk of itself
loaded in order to quickly reactivate it on the next launch. Good OSes (and
probably Windows, too) will eventually swap out the occupied memory to disk
and reload it into RAM once activity is detected.

I don't know if the task manager includes swapped-out memory in its statistics.

Of course if that leftover piece of OO actually does stuff (but what would
that be?), it would burn both CPU cycles and hog real RAM, which of course
is stupid. I wouldn't put it past OO to do that though.

BTW, all I use of OO is "Calc", and whenever I get really frustrated with
some particularly braindead way of doing things I discover that it was in
fact put in to mimick Excel behavior as closely as possible.

Use it once and it leaves a chunk in RAM

It's bad if it is in fact real, semiconductor RAM (as opposed to swapped-out
stuff in the attic). But the fact that your PC gets sluggish suggests that
it is in fact so. And OO is a bad memory hog.

robert

 

[Robert Latest]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]

Yep, I've got to try that out. All I need is smooth graphics import,
scaling, and reasonable TOC handling.

Dare I try to sell you on LaTeX? Ah, better not.

robert

 

[Joerg]

It could well be that overall OO uses more memory than MS Word, even
when considering the hidden memory uses of MS Word. OO has better code
sharing between the components, but that probably means that when you
are just using one part (such as the word processor), it takes more
memory than a stand-alone word processor. It could just be that OO is
written in a more memory-hungry style (I know that startup speed and
bloat are priorities for the OO developers). I still don't think that
you should need to use task manager to stop it, but I haven't looked at
how to stop the pre-loader from running.

Hmm, I can't see them work on those priorities since it got worse since
the first time I tried OO. But it's freeware, so I won't complain. Just
won't use it anymore.

That is *precisely* why I never use MS programs (other than windows -
for pretty much the same pragmatic reasons that you use it). When
choosing an application program, I want one the does what it says on the
box, and nothing else. Thus I use Firefox (or Opera) for web browsing -
they are stand-alone applications that don't interfere with the rest of
the system, unlike IE (which is banned at my office for security and
reliability reasons) which digs itself around the guts of the OS. I
won't install MS Office, because it too digs in and installs or runs all
sorts of rubbish (such as an updater that has been known to stall PC's
for *hours* on startup). The OO pre-loader may be more annoying than
helpful depending on your machine and your usage, but it can be disabled
and it does not hide invisibly in the background.

Well, it seems that it cannot be disabled and it hid quite well in the
background. Until my suspicion caught up with it via task manager. I'd
call that hiding.

Exit QuickStarter again - at least you don't need to use the task
manager

Nope, still 41.7MB bloat sloshing around.

But yes, it is bloated.


I've also seen Word running faster than OO on older PC's. But I'd
rather spend $300 on a new PC and run OO than spend $300 on MS Office
for the older PC.

That goes against my environmental grain. I won't toss another PC into
the garbage pail just because some programmers can't get their bloat
reigned in. For me, there are solutions, in this case not using OO.

I found MS Word's TOC handling to be very poor (on word for windows 2,
the last version I used for anything serious). Of course, as a LaTeX
user I am a bit spoiled! When you use OO and generate pdfs, the TOC
turn into proper bookmarks which looks good in distributed documentation.

Ok, I only need a nice TOC at the beginning that can quikcly be updated
when I add stuff to a chapter. Word does that. Good enough ;-)

 

[Joerg]

Joerg,




So that if you start an OO program again the start-up is faster. You're not
losing memory here either -- if you PC starts running low on memory,
soffice.bin will just get swapped out to the hard disk (although obviously at
that point you won't get the faster start-up time)

That's what happens, the PC starts incessantly grinding on the HD. But
after closing other programs soffice.bin is still there. And it does get
slower. A lot. Ok, I could run with the masses and buy a new one for
that desk every couple of year because now you need 1GB for stuff that
our forefathers were able to do in 256K. However, that goes against my
grain, at least from an environmental point of view.

You do have the choice to turn it off (and it's easier to do in OO than MSO),

Well, how?

and while it's true that neither OO or MSO go out of there way to announce
what's going on, I really think that's driven because having the default be
off (don't pre-load parts of the program) would generate far more complaints
from people about the long load time of the programs... because *very few*
people would ever bother to read how to turn it *on*.

Compared to MS-Office OO is like molasses with or without pre-loader,
IMHO. Seems I am not alone with this opinion. I've heard several people
say that they aren't using it because it's too sluggish. Quite sad,
considering all the work that has gone into this wonderful idea.

 

[David Brown]

Hmm, I can't see them work on those priorities since it got worse since
the first time I tried OO. But it's freeware, so I won't complain. Just
won't use it anymore.

I guess any success in reducing the memory requirements is balanced with
more features (some of which are occasionally useful!).

As for complaining - it is perfectly acceptable to criticise free
software, as long as it's in the right tone of voice ("the software
would be so much better if ..." rather than "you *have* to fix this").
Feedback is important, although in this case the developers have
probably heard it before.

Well, it seems that it cannot be disabled and it hid quite well in the
background. Until my suspicion caught up with it via task manager. I'd
call that hiding.

No, hiding is when you *can't* see it with task manager, or when it is
just another of these "svchost.exe" processes. If you want to know
what's running on your machine, task manager is the basic interface.

As for disabling it - I haven't found a way, but I only had a quick look
on the options page.

Nope, still 41.7MB bloat sloshing around.

That's different from on my system. Maybe we have different versions,
or different OS's or something. When I close the QuickStarter,
soffice.bin is gone.

That goes against my environmental grain. I won't toss another PC into
the garbage pail just because some programmers can't get their bloat
reigned in. For me, there are solutions, in this case not using OO.

I am not a fan of wasting good PC's either (my work PC is about six
years old, and I recently set up a Pentium 60 machine as a server). But
using Word goes against my requirements for secure and reliable
software, and I as I disapprove of MS as a business, I dislike giving
them money (sometimes the practical solution involves things I dislike,
but when I have a choice, I'll avoid MS). If Abiword (or an alternative
solution such as OO on a terminal server) does the job without changing
the PC, then that is obviously better still.

 

[Robert Latest]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]

Compared to MS-Office OO is like molasses with or without pre-loader,
IMHO. Seems I am not alone with this opinion. I've heard several people
say that they aren't using it because it's too sluggish.

After it's loaded it has a good look and feel and doesn't feel sluggish.

Quite sad,
considering all the work that has gone into this wonderful idea.

OO is far from unusable, especially on what is considered a failrly modern
PC nowadays. Mine is four years old, and OO takes 7 seconds to start up
(on Linux). Too long for my taste, but heck, I got it for free.

robert

 

[Baron]

Joerg inscribed thus:

Nope, still 41.7MB bloat sloshing around.

I assume that you waited for the "Hold" time to expire !

 

[Joerg]

Joerg inscribed thus:




I assume that you waited for the "Hold" time to expire !

A hold time? Nah, I'm done with OO. When I use MS-Word the problem
simply goes away.

 

[Joel Kolstad]

Hi Joerg,

Ok, I could run with the masses and buy a new one for that desk every
couple of year because now you need 1GB for stuff that our forefathers
were able to do in 256K. However, that goes against my grain, at least
from an environmental point of view.

Think of it as making jobs for your fellow man rather than ruining the
environment.



Just kidding.

Well, how?

It has a little icon in the system tray (lower right-hand set of icons). If
you right-click it, the pop-up menu that appears has an option for "Load
OpenOffice.org during system start-up" that you can check or uncheck."

Compared to MS-Office OO is like molasses with or without pre-loader,
IMHO. Seems I am not alone with this opinion. I've heard several people
say that they aren't using it because it's too sluggish.

It's fast enough for me, but I'm seldom dealing with documents that are over
some tens of pages (and I do use so-called "modern" PCs, generally all with
at least 1GB of RAM ). Perhaps it bogs down with book-sized documents?

Quite sad, considering all the work that has gone into this wonderful
idea.

Well, it's under continuous active development, so over time I expect it
will improve even more. I imagine the biggest internal debate over its
continuing development is how much they want to play "me too" in copying
Microsoft's user interface to attract those users vs. doing things in a way
that's "better" than MS Office but unfamiliar to many.

---Joel

 

[JeffM]

[...]try out[...]OpenOffice[...]without[...]installing[...]
http://www.stream24-7.com

NOT cross-platform (not even DOS-based Windoze).
Only works on Internet Exploder (v6 or later).
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...dwidth+del+Firefox.is.not.currently.supported

You only need Internet Expunger

No. I don't *need* IE at all, thanks.
I've had all the infections I can stand for one lifetime.

because the site uses Active X controls

Goes without saying.
Any modern browser can do anything IE can do--except that.[1]

to install the software that downloads the software.

Idiots who use ActiveX controls should be castrated
so their stupidity genes don't propagate.
..
..
[1] There is actually an ActiveX plug-in for Gecko
--but what bozo would purposely infect his box with that crap?

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,




Think of it as making jobs for your fellow man rather than ruining the
environment.



Just kidding.

For the fellow men in China ...

Although my last laptop has a big sticker "Made in USA". I just don't
know why they used a Japanese bike on the brochure instead of a Harley.

It has a little icon in the system tray (lower right-hand set of icons). If
you right-click it, the pop-up menu that appears has an option for "Load
OpenOffice.org during system start-up" that you can check or uncheck."

Tried that. Didn't do the trick. Once I opened OO after that and closed
it the bloat is there again.

It's fast enough for me, but I'm seldom dealing with documents that are over
some tens of pages (and I do use so-called "modern" PCs, generally all with
at least 1GB of RAM ). Perhaps it bogs down with book-sized documents?

Mine module specs are rarely over 50 pages or so. But they do contain
tons of graphics, schematics and so on. MS-Word handles that nicely,
always has.

Well, it's under continuous active development, so over time I expect it
will improve even more. I imagine the biggest internal debate over its
continuing development is how much they want to play "me too" in copying
Microsoft's user interface to attract those users vs. doing things in a way
that's "better" than MS Office but unfamiliar to many.

Sure, but if, for example, OO Calc has a "better" macro set than Excel
and now you can't open someone else's VBA files then "better" ain't
exactly better. For biz I need something that is compatible with what my
clients use.

 

[JeffM]

[...]OpenOffice.org[...]is like molasses with or without pre-loader[...]
Quite sad, considering
all the work that has gone into this wonderful idea.

Well, it's under continuous active development, so over time
I expect it will improve even more. I imagine the biggest internal debate
over its continuing development is how much they want to play "me too"
in copying Microsoft's user interface to attract those users

I'm thinking that someone will see a *need* to impliment "the ribbon",
(as happened with VBA)
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...erence+VB.macros+Copyright+11.17.2004&strip=1
and it will arise in a fork (like what happened with the VBA fork)
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...mplete+Reserved+Visual-Basic-for-Applications
and it will eventually get folded into the main tree
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...A+Windows&strip=1#How_to_enable_the_VBA_model

 

[David Brown]

For the fellow men in China ...

Although my last laptop has a big sticker "Made in USA". I just don't
know why they used a Japanese bike on the brochure instead of a Harley.


Tried that. Didn't do the trick. Once I opened OO after that and closed
it the bloat is there again.

The only option I've found is to choose to load the quickstart bit
during system startup - it stays loaded after you quit OO. But you can
exit it with a right mouse click and choosing "exit" (it works on my
system, anyway).

Mine module specs are rarely over 50 pages or so. But they do contain
tons of graphics, schematics and so on. MS-Word handles that nicely,
always has.

Not many people find that MS Word handles 50 page documents reliably.
It is (apparently) well known for corrupting larger documents.

Sure, but if, for example, OO Calc has a "better" macro set than Excel
and now you can't open someone else's VBA files then "better" ain't
exactly better. For biz I need something that is compatible with what my
clients use.

OO files are standard, while Office ones are not - OO formats are
becoming more common, though they have a very long way to go before they
challenge doc and xls. They are more common than ooxml formatted documents.

Anyway, for business use it is seldom necessary to give out doc or xls
files - pdf is normally a far better choice. If necessary, OO can read
and write doc and xls formats with better cross-version compatibility
than any version of MS Office. And with OO, you can save your own files
in a standard format and be confident of being able to access them in
the future.

 

[Joerg]

The only option I've found is to choose to load the quickstart bit
during system startup - it stays loaded after you quit OO. But you can
exit it with a right mouse click and choosing "exit" (it works on my
system, anyway).

Didn't work on mine. That one is an older Win2K PC. And it's going to
stay here ;-)

Not many people find that MS Word handles 50 page documents reliably. It
is (apparently) well known for corrupting larger documents.

Yep, I had a few hardcore crashes. But I had a lot more of those on OO
when I tried. OO does help in creating presentation materials nicely though.

OO files are standard, while Office ones are not - OO formats are
becoming more common, though they have a very long way to go before they
challenge doc and xls. They are more common than ooxml formatted
documents.

I can't say that for my client base. None use OO, all of them use MS-Office.

Anyway, for business use it is seldom necessary to give out doc or xls
files - pdf is normally a far better choice. If necessary, OO can read
and write doc and xls formats with better cross-version compatibility
than any version of MS Office. And with OO, you can save your own files
in a standard format and be confident of being able to access them in
the future.

Different in my biz (consulting). Often we work in teams and my *.doc
must be integrated with someone else's *.doc, or vice versa. *.xls is
also used extensively, for example to exchange measurement plots and
things like that. Also sometimes with VBA calcs in there and that's not
at all compatible with OO as far as I could see.

In fact the most prevalent file formats in my biz are doc, txt, html,
xls, pdf, pho and dxf. Plus some graphics formats. Very few others.

 

[David Brown]

Didn't work on mine. That one is an older Win2K PC. And it's going to
stay here ;-)

Mine is W2K as well.

Yep, I had a few hardcore crashes. But I had a lot more of those on OO
when I tried. OO does help in creating presentation materials nicely
though.

I don't know that I've ever seen OO crash, although as I've said I don't
use any office programs intensively. From your posts, however, I get
the impression that you have a more crashes and problems on that
computer than is normal - there is maybe something else wrong (as well
as having too little memory...).

I can't say that for my client base. None use OO, all of them use
MS-Office.

odt is not nearly as common as doc, but it is more common than ooxml.
It's very common for people with OO to save in doc/xls format for the
benefit of those using MS Office, so impressions based on file formats
will be wrong (it's like Opera always being under-represented in web
statistics, because most users have it set to identify itself as IE).

Different in my biz (consulting). Often we work in teams and my *.doc
must be integrated with someone else's *.doc, or vice versa. *.xls is
also used extensively, for example to exchange measurement plots and
things like that. Also sometimes with VBA calcs in there and that's not
at all compatible with OO as far as I could see.

When you need to collaborate directly like this, then you need editable
file formats - but that's a minor usage for most businesses. And the
macro languages of MS Office and OO are incompatible (although Novel has
made some progress on translators) - again, very few people need macro
features except to spread Word viruses.

But clearly you have good reason for using MS Office rather than OO,
which is fair enough - use the best tool for the job.

 

[Joerg]

Mine is W2K as well.


I don't know that I've ever seen OO crash, although as I've said I don't
use any office programs intensively. From your posts, however, I get
the impression that you have a more crashes and problems on that
computer than is normal - there is maybe something else wrong (as well
as having too little memory...).

The docs I am working with are often quite large. Yes, RAM could be an
issue. OTOH all other software works fine with it and sometimes I do
some rather math-intense stuff on that PC. Also Gerber checks on large
fine-pitch layouts with umpteen layers. No problems there.

odt is not nearly as common as doc, but it is more common than ooxml.
It's very common for people with OO to save in doc/xls format for the
benefit of those using MS Office, so impressions based on file formats
will be wrong (it's like Opera always being under-represented in web
statistics, because most users have it set to identify itself as IE).

True. However, one of the first questions I ask new clients is what
software they use for docs, databases, calcs and CAD. So I can keep
things compatible. It's always like this: MS-Office for the first three,
Orcad, and AutoCad for mechanical stuff (one of them uses SolidWorks).

When you need to collaborate directly like this, then you need editable
file formats - but that's a minor usage for most businesses. And the
macro languages of MS Office and OO are incompatible (although Novel has
made some progress on translators) - again, very few people need macro
features except to spread Word viruses.

If you need to do a live run of a lab instrument while displaying and
processing incoming data immediately you kind of don't have a choice but
to run Macros/VBA. The only other option would be to write it all again
in C (got to shell out money for a programmer) or use the capture SW
that came with the instrument and lose the live capability. Viruses
aren't a concern then because most people (like me) run Office so you
have to manually allow macros on a per-file basis. Since the files come
from a very well known source it's no problem.

 

[Joel Kolstad]

For the fellow men in China ...

Once they all have decent jobs they might start thinking hard about changing
their government, which would arguably be good worldwide. I'm just
trying to point out, for all the downsides to, e.g., the environment that
"excess consumption" causes, there are certainly economic upsides as well.
This is especially true when you consider that all but a tiny sliver of the
economy today is based on what people simply "want" (cell phones, movies,
video games, fast food, drive-through coffee stands, etc.) rather than you
is truly "needed" (safe foods, a roof over one's head) for a simple, healthy
life.

Tried that. Didn't do the trick. Once I opened OO after that and closed it
the bloat is there again.

Hmm... sorry to hear that.

Mine module specs are rarely over 50 pages or so. But they do contain tons
of graphics, schematics and so on. MS-Word handles that nicely, always
has.

I've had a lot of problem with Word screwing up formatting around pictures
and also screwing up its own table of contents. That was a hardware
description document of ~100 pages, but I haven't tried anything that big in
OO office so I can't comment much... except to say that so far I haven't
seen problems.

Sure, but if, for example, OO Calc has a "better" macro set than Excel and
now you can't open someone else's VBA files then "better" ain't exactly
better. For biz I need something that is compatible with what my clients
use.

Well, for business purposes the cost of Microsoft Office is reasonable... I
just wish that, e.g., high school and perhaps colleges would switch to a
non-commercial "standard" for word processing and spreadsheets. For the
small number of features needed from a word processor when writing a high
school composition, the "learning curve" to pick up a new word processor is
pretty trivial... and even a lot of college papers (barring, e.g., theses)
have no particular formatting requirements and any old word processor (OO,
MS Word, Corel's Word Perfect, Abiword, etc.) would work.

---Joel

 

[Joel Kolstad]

True. However, one of the first questions I ask new clients is what
software they use for docs, databases, calcs and CAD. So I can keep things
compatible. It's always like this: MS-Office for the first three, Orcad,
and AutoCad for mechanical stuff (one of them uses SolidWorks).

Isn't AutoCAD to Solidworks like ORCAD to, say, Eagle: Yes, lots of people
use the former, but the later is one heck of a lot better and generally
preferred if starting a new company rather than just paying maintenance for
what they've been using for a decade?

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Isn't AutoCAD to Solidworks like ORCAD to, say, Eagle: Yes, lots of people
use the former, but the later is one heck of a lot better and generally
preferred if starting a new company rather than just paying maintenance for
what they've been using for a decade?

AutoCAD is to Solidworks as a circus calliope is to a Lexus.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Joerg]

Isn't AutoCAD to Solidworks like ORCAD to, say, Eagle: Yes, lots of people
use the former, but the later is one heck of a lot better and generally
preferred if starting a new company rather than just paying maintenance for
what they've been using for a decade?

I have never considered either because DesignCAD 3D is all I'd ever
need. AFAIK SolidWorks is much more powerful but also very expensive.
Pricewise mechanical CAD plays in a much higher league.