Woo-Woo Energy loss In a circuit?

[Moha99]

I understand in energy generally there is energy loss because there is something a transformation of energy form gravitational energy to kinetic energy etc... How is it avoided?

In electricity the cause of energy loss mainly the resistance of a circuit correct?
Also in electric generation there is also no way you can generate more energy that is inputed obviously because mass energy loss.

Why is this occurring could you explain that to me please?

And in an energy circuit cant we avoid mass energy loss also in electrical generation?

 

[(*steve*)]

I understand in energy generally there is energy loss because there is something a transformation of energy form gravitational energy to kinetic energy etc... How is it avoided?

That's not a loss of energy, that's a conversion from potential to kinetic energy.

The loss comes in (for example) when the acceleration of the object is hindered by air and some of that energy is absorbed into the atmosphere as either motion or heat.

In electricity the cause of energy loss mainly the resistance of a circuit correct?
Also in electric generation there is also no way you can generate more energy that is inputed obviously because mass energy loss.

I guess resistance is the main cause of loss of energy (or transformation into useless thermal energy. But there are others, some energy is radiated as electromagnetic waves, for example. There may be some coupling of a magnetic field to something which removes energy from it, etc.

Why is this occurring could you explain that to me please?

Because the heat you generate isn't useful or desired and you can't eliminate it.

And in an energy circuit cant we avoid mass energy loss also in electrical generation?

Every closed system obeys the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[Harald Kapp]

If you could completely avoid the loss of energy (or the conversion of "useful" energy to "useless" energy) you'd end with a perpetual motion machine of the third kind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion) which is impossible.


Harald

 

[Moha99]

If you could completely avoid the loss of energy (or the conversion of "useful" energy to "useless" energy) you'd end with a perpetual motion machine of the third kind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion) which is impossible.


Harald

Impossibile? Come on man! Be optimistic about it a bit.
Remember a 100 years ago they said its foolish to say HUMANS WILL TRAVEL OUT TO SPACE because its impossibile... But look at us now we've reached to MARS!

Even though that perpetual motion basically violates ALL the laws of physics but hey there ia no such thing to me as "impossibile" why limit our self and our capabilities we just need to unlock the keys of perpetual motion and understand it more maybe we come up with a good product and maybe not but that doesn't mean its IMPOSSIBILE.

Energy is a really complicated thing but if we understand and deal with it properly we can achieve so so much.

Nikola Tesla thought about AC back at his time many opposed him and said thats just nonsense and now we use it daily in our lives.

IM/POSSIBILE. !

 

[(*steve*)]

FIRST you figure out if there are theoretical exceptions to the laws of thermodynamics.

THEN you try to invent perpetual motion.

Note the sig...

 

[Moha99]

FIRST you figure out if there are theoretical exceptions to the laws of thermodynamics.

THEN you try to invent perpetual motion.

Note the sig...

sig? What do you mean by that?

 

[davenn]

sig? What do you mean by that?

LOOK at Steve's signature!!

Perpetual motion is IMPOSSIBLE. No if's, no but's or no maybe's
EVERY system has losses no matter how small, therefore you can NEVER get out as much or more energy as you put in

Cheers
Dave

 

[jackorocko]

Oh come now, it would only require a machine that was physically invisible to the known world to have perpetual motion. In fact maybe there is one in your basement, you just can't see it yet! ever!?!?!

 

[Harald Kapp]

I will happily sell the invisible machine in my basement. Maybe I'll have a bit more storage space if I can get rid of that d... thing. I'll even be happy to throw in a few meters of WLAN cable for free.

Want to place an offer?

Harald

 

[Moha99]

its typical of everyone to refuse anything that might "CHANGE" their perspectives of certain things keep in mind that this is exactly what every human being does when they hear an idea they just shut the door on that persons face and mock about the words that came out of their mouths....

Consider the opportunities are vast and in time someone might discover a way to design a system that could be a perfect perpetual machine or similar to it. I hope to see it in my lifetime.

 

[timothy48342]

I hope to see some more amazing things in my lifetime, too.

It is typical for some people to strongly resist change of any kind. In general scientifically minded people aren't included in that group. Anythng unknown is scary. That much is human nature, but the more you know, the less there is to be afaid of. I think that resistance to change comes from fear of change. "People", (some poeple) are resistant to change mostly because of that fear. There are other people, (again, I think scientifically minded people) that don't so easily fall prey to that fear.

The laws of thermodynamics are not set in stone, and there is no penalty for violating them. You won't be burnt at any stake for claiming you've found a glitch, however you might be ignored some. They (those laws) stand up to testing time and time again. If you find a way to disprove them or find a way to show that they need modified or updated to include some special situation that no one ever thought of before, no intelligent person is going to run away screaming, "Oh, no! My world is falling apart!" They leave that reaction to others.

You think you've got something??? Work on it! Run with it! If a bunch of really smart people tell you that you are wrong, ignore them and keep going!

However don't spend an inordinant amount of time working on something that will never work.

An analogy: Don't beat your head against a brick wall believing that your head is tougher than that and you've just got to win. Learn about that wall and how it is constructed and what it might take to break it.

Don't just ignore the laws of thermodynamics because you don't completely understand them. I guarantee that if someone finds a way to disprove or force a modification to the laws of thermodynamics... it won't be because they didn't understand them in the first place.

If you have got some new invention in your mind that should not be able to work (according to the currently known laws of pysics) then you might want to at least learn why it shouldn't be able to work, so you know what your up against.

THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE who have worked their entire lives on something that was never going to be succesful. I don't remember any of their names.

-t

 

[Moha99]

I hope to see some more amazing things in my lifetime, too.

It is typical for some people to strongly resist change of any kind. In general scientifically minded people aren't included in that group. Anythng unknown is scary. That much is human nature, but the more you know, the less there is to be afaid of. I think that resistance to change comes from fear of change. "People", (some poeple) are resistant to change mostly because of that fear. There are other people, (again, I think scientifically minded people) that don't so easily fall prey to that fear.

The laws of thermodynamics are not set in stone, and there is no penalty for violating them. You won't be burnt at any stake for claiming you've found a glitch, however you might be ignored some. They (those laws) stand up to testing time and time again. If you find a way to disprove them or find a way to show that they need modified or updated to include some special situation that no one ever thought of before, no intelligent person is going to run away screaming, "Oh, no! My world is falling apart!" They leave that reaction to others.

You think you've got something??? Work on it! Run with it! If a bunch of really smart people tell you that you are wrong, ignore them and keep going!

However don't spend an inordinant amount of time working on something that will never work.

An analogy: Don't beat your head against a brick wall believing that your head is tougher than that and you've just got to win. Learn about that wall and how it is constructed and what it might take to break it.

Don't just ignore the laws of thermodynamics because you don't completely understand them. I guarantee that if someone finds a way to disprove or force a modification to the laws of thermodynamics... it won't be because they didn't understand them in the first place.

If you have got some new invention in your mind that should not be able to work (according to the currently known laws of pysics) then you might want to at least learn why it shouldn't be able to work, so you know what your up against.

THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE who have worked their entire lives on something that was never going to be succesful. I don't remember any of their names.

-t

I really do cherish that optimism in all its ways!
True that to change or modify something we need to understand the origins of it not defy them!

I truly believe that when people say for example things are IMPOSSIBILE based on the laws of physics... We fortget that theses laws were stated by HUMAN BEINGS weather it is the smartest man on earth or not their still HUMAN BEINGS, they could have observed a certain idea and shown that certain idea then stated the laws even if they tried to oppose that law them selfs they could not... But maybe they chose a different path to oppose it. Look at cars now a days compared between 100years ago they barley built a car that had 10HP. Now some supercars can reach up to 1000+HP! surly those engineers back then said the same as you all now ... IMPOSSIBILE YOY DEFY YOU... etc and it all goes on again and again. Tell a few people prove it.

But hey anything is possibile if we put our mind in the right track. Weather you believe in it or not its it

 

[timothy48342]

Definately, anything is possible.

About the use of the word, "impossible"...

Harald Kapp linked to a wiki a few posts back that I think was a good read. In particular, that was a section called "Use of the term 'impossible' and perpetual motion."
I'll relink it here direct to that seciton:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion#Use_of_the_term_.22impossible.22_and_perpetual_motion

The whole section was a nice read, (as well as the whole wiki) and at the end of that section is a very nice quote from some famous person that DID accomplish something great and who's name I ALSO don't remember. (along with all those whose names are forgotten and who beat their metaphorical heads against metaphorical walls.)
-t

 

[jackorocko]

I hope to see it in my lifetime.

This is one of those times I hope your not planning on holding your breath, because you won't last long.

 

[davenn]

Moha. You really have some serious physics learning to do
The physical laws were NOT created by man those laws and constants were always there in nature and were just discovered by man

Really is time for you to do some indepth reading on thermodynamics etc
Then you will discover how uninformed your reasoning is when it isn't supported by those natural laws.

In the words of Scotty from star trek..... ". Ye canne break the laws of physics"

Cheers
Dave

 

[(*steve*)]

Sure, some things are impossible.

Dividing by zero is one case. However we do it all the time. Some clever bunnies discovered limits, and from that it followed that although a function might be discontinuous at zero, you could kinda just ignore that in the right circumstances and differential calculus was born.

A long time ago, people thought that if you went faster than 60 miles per hour you would die because you would not be able to breathe. Well, vehicles were made that went faster than that and nobody died -- well, not because they couldn't breathe...

So there seemed to be no limit. Newton's laws don't impose one.

Then some spoilsport came up with relativity and it shows that as you approach a particular speed your mass changes and the equation ends up dividing by zero at c.

No problem you might think -- if calculus can do it,, then so can a rocket! Unfortunately the math won't let you do it there. But the equation doesn't say you can't go faster than light, only that you can't ever (if you have mass) actually get to c. So maybe there's some trick to get past the barrier without going through it?

OK, but I bet if we ever do it, it's not going to be with any technology that we're familiar with today.

Now, perpetual motion. Read up on thermodynamics. It's intuitively correct. Maybe it's like Newton's laws. Maybe there is a bigger picture. Maybe that bigger picture allows some escape from it at very high or low temperatures, or at very small scale (think quantum mechanics), or under an intense gravitational field (think black holes), or something else.

If you find an "out" for this, then conceivably there is some way to have perpetual motion. As I said, it would pay to determine theoretically first where those holes are before you try to break them. Perhaps there is nothing with zero resistance, but -ve resistance is possible. But again, I suggest that if you do, you will be using stuff we've probably never seen before.

Maybe you find some external source (for another dimension or something) of power and can tap it. Again, I suspect that it will be theoretical physicists who will come up with this, not some guy in his garage spinning magnets, but stranger things have happened.

All anything that "breaks" the laws of physics needs is a demonstration. Once you have one the laws need amendment.

Imagine I came up with a nuclear reactor in 1750. It might be seen as a perpetual motion machine. But it's not, and physics shows what it actually is (tapping some energy from supernovae that was stored in elements heavier than iron).

Do I personally believe that we're ever going to see perpetual motion? No. If we saw something that appeared to be it, I would lay odds on it being something else -- and *that* would be a whole lot more interesting.

 

[Moha99]

Sure, some things are impossible.

Dividing by zero is one case. However we do it all the time. Some clever bunnies discovered limits, and from that it followed that although a function might be discontinuous at zero, you could kinda just ignore that in the right circumstances and differential calculus was born.

A long time ago, people thought that if you went faster than 60 miles per hour you would die because you would not be able to breathe. Well, vehicles were made that went faster than that and nobody died -- well, not because they couldn't breathe...

So there seemed to be no limit. Newton's laws don't impose one.

Then some spoilsport came up with relativity and it shows that as you approach a particular speed your mass changes and the equation ends up dividing by zero at c.

No problem you might think -- if calculus can do it,, then so can a rocket! Unfortunately the math won't let you do it there. But the equation doesn't say you can't go faster than light, only that you can't ever (if you have mass) actually get to c. So maybe there's some trick to get past the barrier without going through it?

OK, but I bet if we ever do it, it's not going to be with any technology that we're familiar with today.

Now, perpetual motion. Read up on thermodynamics. It's intuitively correct. Maybe it's like Newton's laws. Maybe there is a bigger picture. Maybe that bigger picture allows some escape from it at very high or low temperatures, or at very small scale (think quantum mechanics), or under an intense gravitational field (think black holes), or something else.

If you find an "out" for this, then conceivably there is some way to have perpetual motion. As I said, it would pay to determine theoretically first where those holes are before you try to break them. Perhaps there is nothing with zero resistance, but -ve resistance is possible. But again, I suggest that if you do, you will be using stuff we've probably never seen before.

Maybe you find some external source (for another dimension or something) of power and can tap it. Again, I suspect that it will be theoretical physicists who will come up with this, not some guy in his garage spinning magnets, but stranger things have happened.

All anything that "breaks" the laws of physics needs is a demonstration. Once you have one the laws need amendment.

Imagine I came up with a nuclear reactor in 1750. It might be seen as a perpetual motion machine. But it's not, and physics shows what it actually is (tapping some energy from supernovae that was stored in elements heavier than iron).

Do I personally believe that we're ever going to see perpetual motion? No. If we saw something that appeared to be it, I would lay odds on it being something else -- and *that* would be a whole lot more interesting.

Now thats alot of good and useful information I thank you for that effort Steve.

But one more thing

In this video its states it is possibile to get more energy in the system than the input energy? Could you clarify that?

If its what i think it is then wow..

 

[(*steve*)]

Do you mean the statement at 1:40?

Sure. I have a bike. It produces more energy in getting me home that I (through my legs) put into it. Any it's uphill on the way home, so we're not talking about potential energy either.

It is an electric bike. There is another source of energy that may not have been obvious from my description above. Sue I get out of it more than I put into it, but something else is putting energy in.

 

[Moha99]

Do you mean the statement at 1:40?

Sure. I have a bike. It produces more energy in getting me home that I (through my legs) put into it. Any it's uphill on the way home, so we're not talking about potential energy either.

It is an electric bike. There is another source of energy that may not have been obvious from my description above. Sue I get out of it more than I put into it, but something else is putting energy in.

Aaaah that's just good to read a clever example that shows every aspect!

And the 1st law is applied on anything correct? Is it also applied on a electric circuit?
Also! What energy is applied other than you're legs that give out MORE energy? Can you give out more examples?


Thanks again Steve!

 

[Moha99]

"The First Law basically says that energy or matter can neither be created nor destroyed. In terms of the machine, this meant that the total energy output (work by the machine) is equal to the heat supplied. In other words, the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the heat added to the system minus the work done by the system. Because the system operates in the real world, some energy always escapes into the outside world, thus leading to both inefficiency and the Second Law, which was generated to cover the so-called flaw in the First Law. "

And how is it possibile to get more energy "out" while this laws applies im confused once again...