Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?

[John Doe]

(Crossposted, please feel free to trim)


Since the worth of a NiMH rechargeable battery is determined by how
many alkalines you avoid buying and disposing of, what's the point of
low leakage current NiMHs?

In other words. Why would you care if the NiMH still has a charge after
one year? Doesn't that negate the value of being able to recharge the
battery hundreds of times? Why not use an alkaline if it needs to last
for one year?

Or, is ordinary/current NiMH leakage current problematic even for high
current uses, and battery makers are trying to correct that?

Thanks.

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Doe"

Since the worth of a NiMH rechargeable battery is determined by how
many alkalines you avoid buying and disposing of, what's the point of
low leakage current NiMHs?

** Obvious.

The things retain charge for much longer so need less regular attention from
owners and are suitable for use with occasionally used items.

In other words. Why would you care if the NiMH still has a charge after
one year?

** Cos you can use them straight away - fool.

Doesn't that negate the value of being able to recharge the
battery hundreds of times?

** Wot complete insanity is this ?

Why not use an alkaline if it needs to last
for one year?

** A torch or a camera may sit idle for long periods, you do not know WHEN
you are going to need them next - so a rechargeable cell that has a long
charge retention time is a real plus over one that does not.

Fact is, the short and variable self discharge periods of NiCd ( and some
MiMH ) cells is their biggest drawback - resulting in the early demise of
the vast majority of NiCd packs from accidental overcharging the cells that
had longer retention than the others.



....... Phil

 

[SMS]

(Crossposted, please feel free to trim)


Since the worth of a NiMH rechargeable battery is determined by how
many alkalines you avoid buying and disposing of, what's the point of
low leakage current NiMHs?

For cameras, people may use them only every couple of months for most of
the year, then use it a lot during a couple of weeks, but alkalines
perform especially poorly in cameras due to their high internal resistance.

Yes, for flashlights, alkalines are often fine. But now a lot of people
use LED flashlights as bicycle lights for commuting, needing to charge
then often.

Low leakage NiMH batteries are pretty cheap now, on sale they're around
$1.50, so they're only about 2x the price of name brand AA alkalines at
Costco.
\

 

[John Doe]

Do you insult people in person like you insult people over the
Internet, Phil? Were you an orphan? Don't know about the average
Australian, but seems there are a few too many like Phil (another
Australian foul mouth apparently with no self control is Rod Speed
in the storage group). I'm genuinely curious. Maybe they come from
some small backwards tribal region, like where their customs are the
reverse of normal people.

 

[David L. Jones]

(Crossposted, please feel free to trim)

Since the worth of a NiMH rechargeable battery is determined by how
many alkalines you avoid buying and disposing of

That's just *one* sense of worth, there are others.

what's the point of low leakage current NiMHs?

Obviously, they hold their charge longer than ordinary NiMH's. That's
a good and useful thing for many people and many purposes.

In other words. Why would you care if the NiMH still has a charge after
one year? Doesn't that negate the value of being able to recharge the
battery hundreds of times? Why not use an alkaline if it needs to last
for one year?

There comes a point where if you use the item so infrequently, that
can indeed be the case.
But there are countless usage variations you are not considering.

Or, is ordinary/current NiMH leakage current problematic even for high
current uses, and battery makers are trying to correct that?

Pretty much, yes.
Unless you are using an item say better than once a week, you will be
losing a significant amount of charge, and that can be really
annoying.

Dave.

 

[[email protected]]

For cameras, people may use them only every couple of months for most of
the year, then use it a lot during a couple of weeks, but alkalines
perform especially poorly in cameras due to their high internal resistance.

Yes, for flashlights, alkalines are often fine. But now a lot of people
use LED flashlights as bicycle lights for commuting, needing to charge
then often.

Low leakage NiMH batteries are pretty cheap now, on sale they're around
$1.50, so they're only about 2x the price of name brand AA alkalines at
Costco.
\

I use ENELOOPs, but a Costco AA cell costs about 25 cents. So actually
I use both, but try to use the ENELOOPS as much as possible.

Now granted, I used the price of the house brand, but the capacity of
alkaline batteries don't vary much between brands the last time I saw
a capacity test done. I've even used Korean made batteries at the
dollar store in a pinch. About the only cell brand I find that is not
competitive in capacity is Ultralast. Now granted, I've got those
batteries for under a dime at times.

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Doe"

( snip load of top posted, puerile drivel)


** Anyone as colossally stupid as YOU pal, needs to develop a thicker
hide.


Piss off - fool.


...... Phil

 

[J. Clarke]

(Crossposted, please feel free to trim)


Since the worth of a NiMH rechargeable battery is determined by how
many alkalines you avoid buying and disposing of, what's the point
of
low leakage current NiMHs?

In other words. Why would you care if the NiMH still has a charge
after one year? Doesn't that negate the value of being able to
recharge the battery hundreds of times? Why not use an alkaline if
it
needs to last for one year?

It's bloody inconvenient to have your clock or keyboard run down after
3 monts because of internal leakage in the battery.

 

[John Doe]

"John Doe"

( snip load of top posted, puerile drivel)

Appears to be a same dialect. Okay, so I see Phil is obsessed with
Sylvia in the Australian legal group. So maybe Phil and Rod are the
same, or brothers, or maybe bedfellows.

** Anyone as colossally stupid as YOU pal, needs to develop a
thicker hide.

Do you have a Crocodile Dundee complex, Phil?

Piss off - fool.

Are you in a movie, Phil?

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Dope"

( snip another whole load of top posted, puerile drivel )


** Anyone as monumentally stupid as YOU pal, needs to develop a very thick
hide.

To go with that very think head of yours.

Piss the hell off - you PITA trolling fuckwit.

 

[ASAAR]

Leave it to SMS, the so-called battery "expert" to inflate prices
of the AA batteries that he loathes, when he somehow always can find
much lower Li-Ion prices than the rest of us can. Name brand AA
alkalines, such as those from Sanyo, Panasonic, RayOVac, Maxell and
others can often be found in larger camera & electronic stores,
supermarkets and Rite-Aid type stores for prices ranging from 20 to
25 cents each, not the 75 cents claimed by the "expert". Some of
these stores have permanently low battery prices. With others you
wait for sales (Pathmark == frequent, Rite-Aid == infrequent). If
you don't plan ahead and only buy 2AA or 4AA blister packed
alkalines as needed, then yes, you pay higher battery prices.

I really like these so-called hybrid NiMH batteries. I use the Hybrio brand.

Certainly for cameras, the alkalines are terrible due to the high current
demands. It's nice being able to grab a camera that I haven't used for
months and have it work. I could never do that with conventional NiMH
batteries. I'm even using them in my flashlights now that I know they won't
be dead after sitting for a long time.

Low self-discharge NiMH cells such as Hybrios, Hybrids, Eneloops,
etc. are excellent and the best types for many purposes, but not for
all. You can't make that generic statement, that alkalines are
terrible for use in cameras because there's a tremendous difference
in the power demands of different cameras. The worst possible case
is when shots are taken with the flash and the LCD is used. As you
suspect, some cameras do very poorly when powered by alkalines, but
many (in cameras from Canon, Fuji, Nikon, etc.) can provide hundreds
of shots from a set of alkalines even when the flash is used, up to
and beyond 1,500 shots when the flash is not used.

Bogus battery information can also color your expectations. One
example is Canon's A570IS camera. Canon's manual states that it
should be able to get 120 shots (CIPA test, using flash and LCD) and
400 shots (no flash and using viewfinder) from a pair of AA alkaline
cells. I tested that camera and got even more shots than Canon
claimed. SMS on the other hand frequently stated in this newsgroup
that the A570IS did worse than this by an order of magnitude. Even
today his battery data website claims :

I lent an AA powered camera (Canon A570IS) to a relative that tried
to use alkaline AA batteries while on a cruise. She reported getting
about ten pictures per set of batteries. When I inquired if this was
normal on rec.photo.digital I got a slew of responses and every one of
them reported similar results with alkaline batteries.

Whether bogus information or a blatant lie, the responses weren't
similar and unanimous. IIRC, he also stated that she then purchased
new alkalines and got the same terrible battery life. This couldn't
happen unless that particular camera was defective, and it's very
unlikely that it was, since he said he'd check the camera when it
was returned, but he never reported any findings. And despite the
above quote, which if true would indicate an unacceptable camera
with possibly the worst battery performance ever, SMS has since
recommended the A570IS in this newsgroup many times.

As you say, the hybrid type NiMH batteries are good choices for
flashlights, but with two caveats. The first is that if the
flashlight user waits for the light to dim before recharging the
batteries, there's a chance that one or more cells might become
reverse-cell damaged. The more cells that are used, the greater the
possibility. Two cell flashlights should be safe, unless they're
the more expensive types using voltage regulators. Flashlights
using four or more cells provide the greatest risk. The second is
that for emergency use, alkalines provide a good warning that the
batteries need to be replaced because of their slow, gradual voltage
decline. When NiMH batteries become depleted, the light falloff can
be extremely rapid, giving you little time to find a set of
replacement batteries. For most people using flashlights around the
home or auto though, this shouldn't be a significant concern.

 

[[email protected]]

Whether bogus information or a blatant lie, the responses weren't
similar and unanimous. IIRC, he also stated that she then purchased
new alkalines and got the same terrible battery life. This couldn't
happen unless that particular camera was defective, and it's very
unlikely that it was, since he said he'd check the camera when it
was returned, but he never reported any findings. And despite the
above quote, which if true would indicate an unacceptable camera
with possibly the worst battery performance ever, SMS has since
recommended the A570IS in this newsgroup many times.

There are cheap Chinese knock-off batteries that go to great lengths
to look a lot like Duracells or Energizers.
At a quick glance, they look the same. However, even new, they can't
even get a camera to turn on. Internal resistance is that high.
Probably bottom of the barrel carbon/zinc batteries masquerading as
alkalines.

 

[Rich Grise]

Since the worth of a NiMH rechargeable battery is determined by how many
alkalines you avoid buying and disposing of, what's the point of low
leakage current NiMHs?

In other words. Why would you care if the NiMH still has a charge after
one year? Doesn't that negate the value of being able to recharge the
battery hundreds of times? Why not use an alkaline if it needs to last for
one year?

Or, is ordinary/current NiMH leakage current problematic even for high
current uses, and battery makers are trying to correct that?

FWIW, I'll never waste my money on NiMH's again. I bought a "smart"
charger that came with 4 NiMH's once, and was kind of impressed.
Unfortunately, my camera (a Fuji) has a terrible current drain when
it's off, presumably to keep the RTC up. So, I'd pick up the cam,
turn it on, and the NiMHs were dead. So, I'd get the next pair off
its shelf, slap the discharged pair in the charger, and be on my
merry way. Then, freshly charged, bu thaving sat for a couple of
weeks, they were dead. Finally one day, I had no charged NiMHs -
I "charged" 4 of them, and NONE OF THEM would make the camera go.

I mean, pulled them right out of the charger, put them in the camera, and
nothing, like their shelf life was zero.

So I trashed the whole lot, bought a couple of AA alkalines, and
they're still going after almost a year.

BTW, I've never heard of alkalines having a "high internal resistance" -
IME, they're almost as hot as Nicads.

Good Luck!
Rich

 

[John Devereux]

There are cheap Chinese knock-off batteries that go to great lengths
to look a lot like Duracells or Energizers.
At a quick glance, they look the same. However, even new, they can't
even get a camera to turn on. Internal resistance is that high.
Probably bottom of the barrel carbon/zinc batteries masquerading as
alkalines.

I gather a lot of the D cells have AA's inside.

 

[Dave Cohen]

FWIW, I'll never waste my money on NiMH's again. I bought a "smart"
charger that came with 4 NiMH's once, and was kind of impressed.
Unfortunately, my camera (a Fuji) has a terrible current drain when
it's off, presumably to keep the RTC up. So, I'd pick up the cam,
turn it on, and the NiMHs were dead. So, I'd get the next pair off
its shelf, slap the discharged pair in the charger, and be on my
merry way. Then, freshly charged, bu thaving sat for a couple of
weeks, they were dead. Finally one day, I had no charged NiMHs -
I "charged" 4 of them, and NONE OF THEM would make the camera go.

I mean, pulled them right out of the charger, put them in the camera, and
nothing, like their shelf life was zero.

So I trashed the whole lot, bought a couple of AA alkalines, and
they're still going after almost a year.

BTW, I've never heard of alkalines having a "high internal resistance" -
IME, they're almost as hot as Nicads.

Good Luck!
Rich

Most people seem to be aware of alkalines having a higher internal
resistance then either NiMH or NiCD.
Since literally millions of people are happily using NiMH in their
cameras, it might occur to you that you have a problem with the camera.
My guess would be it's unduly sensitive to the lower voltage of NiMH,
but one would need to do further testing.
Dave Cohen

 

[J. Clarke]

FWIW, I'll never waste my money on NiMH's again. I bought a "smart"
charger that came with 4 NiMH's once, and was kind of impressed.
Unfortunately, my camera (a Fuji) has a terrible current drain when
it's off, presumably to keep the RTC up. So, I'd pick up the cam,
turn it on, and the NiMHs were dead. So, I'd get the next pair off
its shelf, slap the discharged pair in the charger, and be on my
merry way. Then, freshly charged, bu thaving sat for a couple of
weeks, they were dead. Finally one day, I had no charged NiMHs -
I "charged" 4 of them, and NONE OF THEM would make the camera go.

I mean, pulled them right out of the charger, put them in the
camera,
and nothing, like their shelf life was zero.

Sounds to me like you have a crap charger.

 

[ASAAR]

There are cheap Chinese knock-off batteries that go to great lengths
to look a lot like Duracells or Energizers.
At a quick glance, they look the same. However, even new, they can't
even get a camera to turn on. Internal resistance is that high.
Probably bottom of the barrel carbon/zinc batteries masquerading as
alkalines.

I've seen some of the cheap counterfeit Duracells. Holding them
in your hand, they're noticeably lighter than real Duracells, and
I'm sure that they aren't really even alkaline AA cells. I think
that most of the people that buy (or bought) them were for use in
portable CD players, where the very low current requirement allows
them to fool naive purchasers.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Rich Gripes"

FWIW, I'll never waste my money on NiMH's again.

** Wot a total ass.

I bought a "smart" charger that came with 4 NiMH's once,

** Here it comes - a whole load of bull with not one single *checkable*
fact in sight.

and was kind of impressed.
Unfortunately, my camera (a Fuji) has a terrible current drain when
it's off, presumably to keep the RTC up.

** Total bollocks.

So, I'd pick up the cam,
turn it on, and the NiMHs were dead.

** Camera problem - a few of the early models were unusable with
rechargeable cells due to automatic PSU shut down at just under 1.2 volt per
cell.

The same cameras only extracted a fraction of the energy capacity of an
Alkaline cell too.

So I trashed the whole lot, bought a couple of AA alkalines, and
they're still going after almost a year.

** So the camera had no " off " current drain issue at all.

Wot a liar.

BTW, I've never heard of alkalines having a "high internal resistance" -
IME, they're almost as hot as Nicads.

** Complete and absolute BOLLOCKS.

The *initial* internal resistance of an Energizer or Duracell AA alkaline
is about 5 times higher than a NiCd.

After some period of use, the ratio goes out to 10 to 30 times higher.

Huge difference.



...... Phil

 

[Eeyore]

(Crossposted, please feel free to trim)

Since the worth of a NiMH rechargeable battery is determined by how
many alkalines you avoid buying and disposing of, what's the point of
low leakage current NiMHs?

In other words. Why would you care if the NiMH still has a charge after
one year?

In low standby power applications of course. It's a pain replacing
batteries in remotes and the like every few months.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Do you insult people in person like you insult people over the
Internet, Phil?

You thought that was an INSULT ?

You ain't seen nothing yet !

Graham