Zenith Repair

[Richard Wagoner]

I have to decide whether or not to repair my Zenith console 27" TV
(model SG5745H9; purchased in 1991). Last December I had a repair done
that is apparently fairly common: some capacitors replaced that were
keeping it from turning on. Now the problem is sound, or more
accurately no sound, as the volume control does nothing. I can hear
amp hiss, though.

The picture seems as good as when new(and seems as good or better than
most new sets); the main board (9-959) was replaced back in 1993
(Zenith agreed to try replacing it under warranty to try to fix a
problem with the TV always muting whenever the screen flashed bright
.... it didn't solve it, but it helped a little) and the sweep module
(9-754) was replaced in late 1994 due to a pincushion problem. So it's
not ALL over 10 years old.

I don't mind spending money to fix it, as I like owning one of the
last American designed-and-built television sets. I also wouldn't mind
buying a new one, either, if it would ultimately be a better deal. I
notice on this newsgroup, however, that new television quality seems
to not be very good, especially when it comes to picture tube
lifespan. Perhaps that is overreaction.

In any event, how does someone determine when it is best to repair and
when it is best to replace? The replacement would most likely be
another console (my wife and I are old fashioned ... and the last
remaining people who prefer consoles to the cheap plastic cabinets of
table models). In a few years we hope to buy Plasma (or another HDTV
design), but that is not definite.

Any thoughts?

Richard Wagoner

 

[Homer Simpson]

If it has audio output jacks, just try plugging in a set of computer
amplified speakers to see if you have audio at that point. If not, plug
them into your VCR and use that as your audio source.

 

[Richard Wagoner]

As a followup, two shops have said the same thing: some caps leaked on
the main audio/source board, and made the ICs go bad. The ICs are not
available, so I need to replace the entire 9-959 main module, at a
cost of about $260-$275 including labor.

It seems like this wouldn't be worth it. I am wondering if I can
change it myself. There is a company on the internet that claims to
have an OEM new board for $136. Is it worth changing it myself, or
might I run into further problems that need to be repaired by a real
tech?

My wife wants a TV that has its own sound (no additional amp, etc.),
so its either fix this one or buy a new one. Since she wants another
console, we either go with Zenith or RCA. I don't mind buying a new
one, but everyone seems to think new is junk.

By the way, any idea who makes Zenith 27" consoles? It says "assembled
in USA" on the back of the new ones, but I understand that LG doesn't
own any assembly plants ...

 

[James Sweet]

You could always look for a used one, console TV's have almost zero resale
value, I never understood why anyone ever bought new ones in the first place
since I can hardly give away used ones, look around a bit, something may
well turn up.

 

[David Harris]

By the way, any idea who makes Zenith 27" consoles? It says "assembled

in USA" on the back of the new ones, but I understand that LG doesn't
own any assembly plants ...

Our company has sold Zenith for nearly fifty-years. I'm not an
expert, but here is what I understand with respect to LG and assembly
plants:


1) Zenith branded consoles are assembled in a former
Phillips/Magnavox plant in Greenville TN. The boards are built by LG
at their plant in Reynosa, Tamps., Mexico (across the border from
McAllen TX). LG does not make the picture tubes in any facility
formerly a part of Zenith. The former picture tube plant in Melrose
Park IL has been demolished. So, I think the tubes come from a
Phillips facility.

2) As a part of assuming the debts of Zenith Electronics Corporation,
LG acquired the manufacturing plant in Reynosa. It is a huge plant,
with enormous capacity. All, or most of the table top CRT models come
from that plant.

3) We have received some 16:9 projection televisions that were built
by LG in Korea. I have been told that they will be producing these
models now, or in the future in Reynosa.

4) Thank goodness, the picture tube nightmare has ended with the
closing of the Melrose Park facility.

5) Parts and support for LG/Zenith is done from a former Goldstar
location in Huntsville AL.

I trust that regular contributors to this group will correct any
incorrect information I have given.

We are still receiving shipments on four different cabinet styles
in 25 and 27 inch (diag.) NTSC consoles. Hope this helps.

David, on the Illinois prairie.

 

[LASERandDVDfan]

So, I think the tubes come from a

Phillips facility.

Goldstar has built their own tubes before, if memory serves me correctly. At
the very least, I've seen Goldstar, and various other brands of TVs, that have
picture tubes give themselves away as Zenith by having a very small rendition
of the "electric Z" logo printed on the tube label. Other times, like if
you're dealing with a Zenith TV/VCR combo unit, the pix tube is likely to have
been made by Funai, as well as the rest of the combo unit.

I said Goldstar because that's what LG is. LG Electronics was originally
Goldstar. Now it's Lucky Goldstar, which is what the letters L and G stand
for. - Reinhart

 

[Richard Wagoner]

Sounds like that picture tube plant was possessed. It also sounds like
the news models aren't really that bad. Decent Phillips tube, without
the Phillips electronics.

In any event, it looks like my problem is solved, or will be solved.
In trying to locate the individual IC chips, I found a source for the
9-959 main module board who will (a) sell to me (b) warrant the board
for a year and (c) give me a good price. I will be installing it
myself based upon the information he gave me. I did watch a swap out
back in 1994, where the tech spent maybe 10 minutes exchanging the
board. Total cost for labor (covered by Zenith, but he let me know the
cost) was about $50 including the home service call. If it works,
great ... if it doesn't, I didn't spend too much. I figure its worth
the gamble.

The guy selling the board said this module needs no adjustments and is
a straight swap. If anyone has conflicting information, please let me
know. In the meantime, it is great to have the TV back ... it really
does have a great picture. Thank goodness it was not one of the bad
tubes ...

Richard

 

[Jerry]

Who is selling you the board? I may need to buy a convergence board of a
convergence power supply board for a Zenith ZB4683RK.
Jer

 

[Richard Wagoner]

New board arrived today. I installed it ... took about half an hour or
so. Works perfectly now. I noticed the new one was a 9-959-1 ... I
wonder what the differences are.

I also have to wonder: if I can install it in 1/2 hour, and the place
that used to service the TV could come to my house and change the
board in about 10 minutes for $50 INCLUDING the house call, why did
two local shops want over $100 (about $120 to be exact ... the same
labor charge as if they fixed the old board themselves) in labor in
their own shop to do the same thing? That seems a bit excessive.
Especially since it really is plug-in and use, with no adjustments! Is
that typical?

 

[Sofie]

Just for the travel time and a half hour minimum labor to come to your home
would run easily over $50 to $70 unless you are right next door to the
service shop. Now, add the part plus shipping and handling and maybe a
little extra labor, diagnostic or research time..... and I could see how it
could easily be $100 ......
......Plus, now that the repair is done, it is easy for you to say exactly
what the repair should have cost.... until you got the board in, you didn't
confidently know that it would entirely fix the problem, so maybe their was
a fudge factor in the first two repair estimates to cover the unexpected
extra parts and labor if needed.
In my business, I have people calling me on the phone wanting me to come to
their house to clean their VCR or to fix their 13" television...... the
repair price is easily double the cost of a "carry in" repair. Somebody has
to pay for the vehicle expenses, lease, insurance, gas, travel time with a
high paid tech sitting in traffic, etc, etc.

 

[John Del]

Subject: Re: Zenith Repair

From: "Sofie" [email protected]
Date: 10/23/03 10:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email protected]>

.. Somebody has

to pay for the vehicle expenses, lease, insurance, gas, travel time with a
high paid tech sitting in traffic, etc, etc.
--

You forgot the high percentage of these Zenith rebuilt modules that are either
no good out of the box or fail in some manner shortly after.......

John Del
Wolcott, CT

"Nothing is so opportune for tyrants as a people tired of its liberty."
Alan Keyes

(remove S for email reply)

 

[David Harris]

[email protected]12.ca.us (Richard Wagoner) wrote in message

.. . . and the place

that used to service the TV could come to my house and change the
board in about 10 minutes for $50 INCLUDING the house call, why did
two local shops want over $100?

I'm curious. What happened to the place that used to come to your
house for $50.00?


David, on the Illinois prairie.

 

[Richard Wagoner]

I could see that, too, except that I had brought the TV into the shop
myself and already paid a diagnosis charge. So it really was $100 flat
labor for nothing more than about 10 minutes work! They were also
about $100 more on the part, so profit was built into that as well.

I miss my old shop. I think the owner retired. He was reasonable for
everything, including VCR repair.

 

[Richard Wagoner]

Keep in mind that was 1994. With inflation I figure it would be close
to $100 now (actually $54.50 then). Unfortunately, I do not know what
happened to him. I used him for a few things through about 1994 or
1996, including VCR repair, and when I went to call him recently, he
was gone. Don't know if he moved or perhaps retired. It was called
King Television Service, Inc. in Long Beach. Two brothers ran it, as I
recall. Guy King was one of the brothers.

That really wasn't my complaint, though. The labor charge did not
include a house call. My complaint was that a $120 labor charge for
the actual board replacement -- I had already paid a diagostic fees
and I brought the TV into the shops myself, so there wasn't a home
service call -- seems excessive. The labor charge was the same as if I
had my old board actually repaired, which would have entailed some
time to removeand replace the bad ICs or sound board, rather than just
removing and replacing, and would have taken much longer to do ...
without a guarantee it would work.

I'm not truly knocking it; I do expect a shop to make money. But isn't
$400 an hour ($200 if you're slow and take as much time as I took)
quite high for repair labor? In the end I wasted $60 on diagnostic
charges -- I already knew enough about the TV that I knew what baord
it needed. I just bought into each shop's claim that they could easily
get parts (the first said he could get the needed sound card; the
second said I didn't need a whole sound card but instead they could
change the ICs. Both, as it turns out, couldn't get either and said
I'd have to get a whole new board anyway).

One nice thing about the replacement board, at least so far, is that
the part number was 9-959-1, apparently revised, that solved what I
called the "mystery mute" -- the TV would mute for a half second or so
whenever the TV show had a bright flash (such as showing a camera
flash or other such effect). Zenith had tried to fix that under
warranty; I just got used to it. The table model of the same era at my
mom's house did the same thing.

 

[Richard Wagoner]

Another message will come through on the same topic, but I reread this
for clarity and realized I needed to be more clear.

Somebody has
to pay for the vehicle expenses, lease, insurance, gas, travel time with a
high paid tech sitting in traffic, etc, etc.

That person was me. I brought the TV in my truck to the two different
shops myself. I wouldn't have thought anything if it was a home serice
call. I do know shops need to make money. If I accidentally insulted
anyone by accidentally suggesting a $100 house call was excessive, I
apologize.

Additionally, I was really wondering if that was normal for shop labor
rather than actually complaining. No one forced me to do anything. It
must be extremely tough running a technical repair business when
everyone tells you they can buy a new one at Costco for $xxx. I am a
firm believer that you do get what you pay for (at least usually).

 

[Richard Wagoner]

I thought of that myself, and that was the reason I ultimately passed on
the $266 - $275 repair estimates. I thought that was too much of a
gamble. I had just paid $200 last December having the capacitors
replaced that kept it from turning on (on the 9-754 module).


John Del wrote:

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

Why not pose these questions to the servicer directly. He understands the
reality of his circumstances better than we do. We can all guess at the
general answers in terms of the overhead and potential losses that we all
face. The particulars of your circumstance and the estimate that you
received, however, can only be explained by the guys that made the estimate.

If they won't give you a reasonable explanation, are arrogant or evasive
then just don't do business there. There are lots of shops that will try to
squeeze as much as they can from every customer and lots that will just
plain rip people off. There are also lots who are honest businessmen just
trying to make a decent living. That costs more than most people realize.

Leonard Caillouet

 

[David Harris]

Keep in mind that was 1994. With inflation I figure it would be close
to $100 now (actually $54.50 then.

That really wasn't my complaint, though. The labor charge did not
include a house call. My complaint was that a $120 labor charge for
the actual board replacement -- I had already paid a diagostic fees
and I brought the TV into the shops myself, so there wasn't a home
service call -- seems excessive.

Richard--

You seem to be a very reasonable person, and write in a very
articulate manner. I would love to have you as MY customer.
I'm not saying that $120.00 is excessive, but I would have
undoubtedly done the job for less, perhaps much less. But then, I'm
in rural Illinois, not metropolitan LA, and things are certainly
different here. My customers leave a key for me, give me the garage
door code, and even leave a signed check on the TV or refrigerator for
me to fill out when I'm done.
As an example of our fees, I recently drove 22 miles (one way) to
service a TV just like yours. I didn't get an accurate description of
the little old ladies problem in advance, but it too turned out to be
no sound. I didn't have the part with me, so I called my store, and
they found one in the scrap, so they headed toward me, and I toward
them, and we met halfway, along side the highway. I returned to the
customers house, put the part in, fixed it, charged about $130.00
total, and got a $10 tip. Everyone seemed to be happy. First time
customer, and I hope she will use me again.
So, anyway, your TV is fixed, and you're happy. The only sad
thing here is that you have put in excess of $100 in a TV that would
only bring $20 at a yard sale, if that. It's a daffy world.

David, on the Illinois prairie.

Member, American Guild of Organists
Television repairman
Piano tuner
Substitute public school teacher
Philosopher
Occasional cynic

 

[Roy J. Tellason]

Why not pose these questions to the servicer directly. He understands the
reality of his circumstances better than we do. We can all guess at the
general answers in terms of the overhead and potential losses that we all
face. The particulars of your circumstance and the estimate that you
received, however, can only be explained by the guys that made the
estimate.

If they won't give you a reasonable explanation, are arrogant or evasive
then just don't do business there. There are lots of shops that will try
to squeeze as much as they can from every customer and lots that will just
plain rip people off. There are also lots who are honest businessmen just
trying to make a decent living. That costs more than most people realize.

Leonard Caillouet

This is one of the things that really bothers me a lot about this stuff...

I had a shop. In fact, I had more than one operation, from the one I
opened in 1974 to the one I closed in 1992, which lasted a whole 7 years.
In that last one we did a lot of musical instrument stuff and a lot of
computers, but computers in those days meant a lot of Commodore 64s (and I
still have bunches of parts for those!). Even then, before those things
went away, it was a hassle because people didn't want to pay $60 for a
repair when they could get a whole new unit for $99, as you could toward
the end. Later, with PCs, there was way much of a tendency for people to
either deal with the outfits they'd bought stuff from, or do their own
swapping. No component-level repair there! You'd just swap out whole
drives, boards, etc. as any other way didn't make any economic sense.

We raised our rates from time to time, though at the end the rates for a
c64 were kept lower than the rest of them, because of those economics. I
*still* ended up with piles of them that weren't worth fixing, bunches of
blown parts when one of those stupid "brick" power supplies went bad and
the regulator cut loose... And even at that, I wasn't making any money
when we finally closed that place up.

Fooling around with this stuff for fun is one thing, but trying to make a
living at it any more? I dunno... There's a certain amount of overhead
built into any given situation, rent, utilities, and so forth. It
doesn't help that you need to pay more for a business phone than for a
residential phone even though the service is the same. That overhead
builds a certain amount of minimum cash flow requirement into the
situation. Which means that every productive hour has to generate a
certain amount of income. People don't want to pay "estimate charges"
though, for something that they may not end up getting fixed! And it's
*way* too easy to sink lots more time into something than it ends up being
worth...

I saw a comment nearby about something needing to be taken to an authorized
service center "because of the cost of special equipment" or something
close to that. We were authorized for 20-30 brands of stuff. That was
often no fun at all, with most companies insisting on the use of their own
forms but one wanting a 6-part (!) NARDA form, which we were supposed to
buy. Zenith Data Systems bounced a warranty claim once because it didn't
have a "batch ticket" with the paperwork, even though the "batch"
consisted of only one claim. One supplier once shipped us what was
supposed to be a fairly reasonable batch of op amps and similar parts
(under $50 worth) from six or seven different warehouses, tacking a
shipping charge on each -- last time I did business with them! One wanted
us to spend $150 on their parts kit, even though the list of what they
sent was all fairly generic parts that I already had most of. And I can
still remember when the Atari ST machines came out -- they wanted me to buy
#3000 worth of boards, monitors, and other gear -- and that was for
_out-of-warranty-repairs_! I passed on that deal...

My other problem these days is that I've got majorly large piles of stuff I
want to get done. And there never seems to be enough hours in a day to get
to most of it. Reading over bunches of the repairfaq documents is
interesting, and even inspiring, as it makes me remember lots of things
that I've forgotten, but do I really want to go back there? Would I if I
even could? I wonder...

Got lots of skills, component-level troubleshooting, acquaintance with
this technology that goes all the way back to vacuum tube stuff (how many
of you guys even knew what the recent reference to an "ion trap" was all
about? , but unfortunately not much of this is in demand in the job
market these days. So I'm still thinking about where I go from here...

 

[Roy J. Tellason]

Additionally, I was really wondering if that was normal for shop labor
rather than actually complaining.

That's going to vary a lot, depending on where you are,

No one forced me to do anything. It must be extremely tough running a
technical repair business when everyone tells you they can buy a new one
at Costco for $xxx. I am a firm believer that you do get what you pay for
(at least usually).

That's the thing, people see that you can get new stuff cheaper, and so
they do. Sometimes this is a good thing, as newer stuff tends to use
newer tech, and fewer parts to do the same job. At the same time stuff is
being made *WAY* more cheaply all the time, more plastic and less metal,
etc. and things are getting less and less repairable all the time, pushing
things further in a direction in which I'm not sure they should be going.

Sure it's competition in manufacturing and retail that are driving this.
But where is it going to end up?