Your opinion on bad sound

[[email protected]]

I like to go clubbing. I've noticed that sometimes the sound quality
is terrible. Distortion like clipping due to using underpowered amps.
I've also noticed that after a night out at these places I get a bad
ringing that lasts for weeks, and it's not just my regular tinnitus,
it's new tones and a weird screeching sound when I listen to everyday
loud noises.

It usually subsides after a few weeks. However, when I got to louder
techno places but with proper sound, I get ringing but it subsides
after a day or two.

I'm well aware that hearing doesn't regenerate itself and that any
extra ringing indicates the loss of more sensitive cells...

My theory is that the human ear protects itself by tightening the
eardrum or stiffening the impedance transformer at the entrance of the
canal. Is it possible that crappy sound with a low average level but
high peaks of distorsion energy actually let more sound into the ear?

I think that ultrasonic energy will damage your hearing, much like
invisible UV radiation will burn your skin. Do clipping amps generate
a lot of energy that is above 20KHz? I can't bring my equipment into
these clubs...

I'd like to start somewhere with this theory... I want clubs and bars
to have decent sound.

 

[James Arthur]

I like to go clubbing. I've noticed that sometimes the sound quality
is terrible. Distortion like clipping due to using underpowered amps.
I've also noticed that after a night out at these places I get a bad
ringing that lasts for weeks, and it's not just my regular tinnitus,
it's new tones and a weird screeching sound when I listen to everyday
loud noises.

It usually subsides after a few weeks. However, when I got to louder
techno places but with proper sound, I get ringing but it subsides
after a day or two.

I'm well aware that hearing doesn't regenerate itself and that any
extra ringing indicates the loss of more sensitive cells...

My theory is that the human ear protects itself by tightening the
eardrum or stiffening the impedance transformer at the entrance of the
canal. Is it possible that crappy sound with a low average level but
high peaks of distorsion energy actually let more sound into the ear?

The clipped, compressed sound may just flat-out have more RMS
energy. (Hams do that deliberately to boost their transmitters'
effective power.)

Your ear does contract a muscle to protect itself against impulse
damage, but any noise that causes a reduced "threshold of hearing",
like after flying in a jet, can cause permanent hearing loss. The
amount varies with the amplitude, frequency, and duration.

I think that ultrasonic energy will damage your hearing, much like
invisible UV radiation will burn your skin. Do clipping amps generate
a lot of energy that is above 20KHz? I can't bring my equipment into
these clubs...

I'd like to start somewhere with this theory... I want clubs and bars
to have decent sound.

Anything that causes your ears to ring *does* produce irreversible
hearing loss each time you do it.

Clipping amps would produce more high harmonics, and yes, higher
frequencies are more damaging to hearing.

Best way of improving the sound in clubs is wearing ear plugs.
Then you can boost the signal (hence signal-to-noise ratio),
without overloading your ears.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[Mark]

The clipped, compressed sound may just flat-out have more RMS
energy.  (Hams do that deliberately to boost their transmitters'
effective power.)

Your ear does contract a muscle to protect itself against impulse
damage, but any noise that causes a reduced "threshold of hearing",
like after flying in a jet, can cause permanent hearing loss.  The
amount varies with the amplitude, frequency, and duration.



Anything that causes your ears to ring *does* produce irreversible
hearing loss each time you do it.

Clipping amps would produce more high harmonics, and yes, higher
frequencies are more damaging to hearing.

Best way of improving the sound in clubs is wearing ear plugs.
Then you can boost the signal (hence signal-to-noise ratio),
without overloading your ears.

Cheers,
James Arthur- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

also avoid the ultrasonic scalers at the dentist...

Mark

 

[Eeyore]

I like to go clubbing. I've noticed that sometimes the sound quality
is terrible. Distortion like clipping due to using underpowered amps.

Cheap amps without anti-clip limiters too no doubt, or the sound guy is
too dim to engage them.

I've also noticed that after a night out at these places I get a bad
ringing that lasts for weeks, and it's not just my regular tinnitus,
it's new tones and a weird screeching sound when I listen to everyday
loud noises.

I's stop going there. Seriously. It's the impulsive noise of clipping that
does the damage to hearing, not the music, just as steel hammers of old
used to which led to stupid noise rules based on averaging meters.

It usually subsides after a few weeks. However, when I got to louder
techno places but with proper sound, I get ringing but it subsides
after a day or two.

Still quite a time. Where are these clubs ?

I'm well aware that hearing doesn't regenerate itself and that any
extra ringing indicates the loss of more sensitive cells...

My theory is that the human ear protects itself by tightening the
eardrum or stiffening the impedance transformer at the entrance of the
canal.
No.


Is it possible that crappy sound with a low average level but
high peaks of distorsion energy actually let more sound into the ear?

You're almost on the right track, except that it's called impulsive sound.
Like a hammer on a piece of iron. And the ear is most sensitive at those
frequencies.

I think that ultrasonic energy will damage your hearing, much like
invisible UV radiation will burn your skin. Do clipping amps generate
a lot of energy that is above 20KHz? I can't bring my equipment into
these clubs...

Well they will do but the speakers won't recreate much of it.

I'd like to start somewhere with this theory... I want clubs and bars
to have decent sound.

It's something I do.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Best way of improving the sound in clubs is wearing ear plugs.
Then you can boost the signal (hence signal-to-noise ratio),
without overloading your ears.

Actually, the best way is to have higher power amps and / or more sensitive
speakers so that clipping is entirely avoided.

Graham

 

[[email protected]]

Well they will do but the speakers won't recreate much of it.

I dunno, lots of club tweeters look like giant stacks of piezo horns,
I'm sure they go out to 30 40 KHz.

It's something I do.

Graham

Well then come to Montreal. Lots of work for you, except we can't pay
you right now.

 

[[email protected]]

The clipped, compressed sound may just flat-out have more RMS
energy. (Hams do that deliberately to boost their transmitters'
effective power.)

Your ear does contract a muscle to protect itself against impulse
damage, but any noise that causes a reduced "threshold of hearing",
like after flying in a jet, can cause permanent hearing loss. The
amount varies with the amplitude, frequency, and duration.

Yeah, I just don't know which muscle. I think I have permanently
damaged my hearing just to be able to dance with married women...
Fucking sound assholes who don't check their equipment.

 

[James Arthur]

Actually, the best way is to have higher power amps and / or more sensitive
speakers so that clipping is entirely avoided.

Graham

Or both, in combination. But if you're a patron and
not in charge of the sound system, ear plugs are good.

The _best_ way to improve the sound is...
listen to something else!

(I don't do concerts much, but I was an
invited guest to one that will go unnamed.
The speakers overhead were BOTTOMING out,
banging against their mechanical stops,
I kid you not. Sound quality was a notch
below 'train station.')

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[[email protected]]

(I don't do concerts much, but I was an
invited guest to one that will go unnamed.
The speakers overhead were BOTTOMING out,
banging against their mechanical stops,
I kid you not. Sound quality was a notch
below 'train station.')

Cheers,
James Arthur

I suspect that most clubs skimp big time on equipment and knowledge.
This is an entirely avoidable situation.

 

[[email protected]]

A noble goal. I have a plan that will finally end the conflict between the
Arabs and the Jews. Let's work together.

Well, the band Chromeo is a Jew and an Arab working together to make
some nice 80s style funky music. Their show was great, good sound and
great opening act.

 

[Eeyore]

Or both, in combination. But if you're a patron and
not in charge of the sound system, ear plugs are good.

The _best_ way to improve the sound is...
listen to something else!

(I don't do concerts much, but I was an
invited guest to one that will go unnamed.
The speakers overhead were BOTTOMING out,
banging against their mechanical stops,
I kid you not. Sound quality was a notch
below 'train station.')

Another cretinous sound engineer who hasn't heard of a high pass filter.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

I suspect that most clubs skimp big time on equipment and knowledge.
This is an entirely avoidable situation.

Not in this pub that I have a long association with.
http://thehorn.co.uk/

10 mins walk from here.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

I dunno, lots of club tweeters look like giant stacks of piezo horns,
I'm sure they go out to 30 40 KHz.

They are the cheapest crap in the world ! No wonder the sound is bad. The
owners aren't black by any chance ?

Well then come to Montreal. Lots of work for you, except we can't pay
you right now.

A continual problem.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

It's all that "Peak Music Power" ;-)

See the FTC 'Amplifier Rule' ! 16 C.F.R. Part 432

TITLE 16 - COMMERCIAL PRACTICES

CHAPTER I - FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION

SUBCHAPTER D - TRADE REGULATION RULES

PART 432 - POWER OUTPUT CLAIMS FOR AMPLIFIERS UTILIZED IN HOME
ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCTS

432.2 - Required disclosures.

(a) Whenever any direct or indirect representation is made of the power
output, power band or power frequency response, or distortion
characteristics of sound power amplification equipment, the following
disclosure shall be made clearly, conspicuously, and more prominently than
any other representations or disclosures permitted under this part: The
manufacturer's rated minimum sine wave continuous average power output, in
watts, per channel (if the equipment is designed to amplify two or more
channels simultaneously) at an impedance of 8 ohms, or, if the amplifier is
not designed for an 8-ohm impedance, at the impedance for which the
amplifier is primarily designed, measured with all associated channels
fully driven to rated per channel power. Provided, however, when measuring
maximum per channel output of self-powered combination speaker systems that
employ two or more amplifiers dedicated to different portions of the audio
frequency spectrum, such as those incorporated into combination
subwoofer-satellite speaker systems, only those channels dedicated to the
same audio frequency spectrum should be considered associated channels that
need be fully driven simultaneously to rated per channel power.

(b) In addition, whenever any direct or indirect representation is made
of the power output, power band or power frequency response, or distortion
characteristics of sound power amplification equipment in any product
brochure or manufacturer specification sheet, the following disclosures
also shall be made clearly, conspicuously, and more prominently than any
other representations or disclosures permitted under this part: (1) The
manufacturer's rated power band or power frequency response, in Hertz (Hz),
for the rated power output required to be disclosed in paragraph (a) of
this section; and (2) The manufacturer's rated percentage of maximum total
harmonic distortion at any power level from 250 mW to the rated power
output, and its corresponding rated power band or power frequency response.




TITLE 16 - COMMERCIAL PRACTICES

CHAPTER I - FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION

SUBCHAPTER D - TRADE REGULATION RULES

PART 432 - POWER OUTPUT CLAIMS FOR AMPLIFIERS UTILIZED IN HOME
ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCTS

432.3 - Standard test conditions.

For purposes of performing the tests necessary to make the disclosures
required under 432.2 of this part: (a) The power line voltage shall be 120
volts AC (230 volts when the equipment is made for foreign sale or use,
unless a different nameplate rating is permanently affixed to the product
by the manufacturer in which event the latter figure would control), RMS,
using a sinusoidal wave containing less than 2 percent total harmonic
content. In the case of equipment designed for battery operation only,
tests shall be made with the battery power supply for which the particular
equipment is designed and such test voltage must be disclosed under the
required disclosures of 432.2 of this part. If capable of both AC and DC
battery operation, testing shall be with AC line operation; (b) The AC
power line frequency for domestic equipment shall be 60 Hz and 50 Hz for
equipment made for foreign sale or use; (c) The amplifier shall be
preconditioned by simultaneously operating all channels at one-eighth of
rated power output for one hour using a sinusoidal wave at a frequency of
1,000 Hz; provided, however, that for amplifiers utilized as a component in
a self-powered subwoofer system, the sinusoidal wave used as a
preconditioning signal may be any frequency within the amplifier's intended
operating bandwidth that will allow the amplifier to be driven to
one-eighth of rated power for one hour; (d) The preconditioning and testing
shall be in still air and an ambient temperature of at least 77 F (25 C);
(e) Rated power shall be obtainable at all frequencies within the rated
power band without exceeding the rated maximum percentage of total harmonic
distortion after input signals at said frequencies have been continuously
applied at full rated power for not less than five (5) minutes at the
amplifier's auxiliary input, or if not provided, at the phono input.

(f) At all times during warm-up and testing, tone loudness-contour and
other controls shall be preset for the flattest response.

 

[HardySpicer]

I like to go clubbing. I've noticed that sometimes the sound quality
is terrible. Distortion like clipping due to using underpowered amps.
I've also noticed that after a night out at these places I get a bad
ringing that lasts for weeks, and it's not just my regular tinnitus,
it's new tones and a weird screeching sound when I listen to everyday
loud noises.

It usually subsides after a few weeks. However, when I got to louder
techno places but with proper sound, I get ringing but it subsides
after a day or two.

I'm well aware that hearing doesn't regenerate itself and that any
extra ringing indicates the loss of more sensitive cells...

My theory is that the human ear protects itself by tightening the
eardrum or stiffening the impedance transformer at the entrance of the
canal. Is it possible that crappy sound with a low average level but
high peaks of distorsion energy actually let more sound into the ear?

I think that ultrasonic energy will damage your hearing, much like
invisible UV radiation will burn your skin. Do clipping amps generate
a lot of energy that is above 20KHz? I can't bring my equipment into
these clubs...

I'd like to start somewhere with this theory... I want clubs and bars
to have decent sound.

The ringing is ear damage - Tinitus. Bad for your ears and probably
and caused permanent damage. Clipping causes harmonics which are harsh
to the ear - in particular 3rd.

 

[Bob]

Best way of improving the sound in clubs is wearing ear plugs.

Then you can boost the signal (hence signal-to-noise ratio),
without overloading your ears.

Cheers,
James Arthur

I put half a wax earplug in each ear so that people don't
notice. I feel self-concious wearing yellow foam earplugs,
unless I actually want to give the impression that I don't
like the music.

I'v been in clubs with a goods sound and some with
terrible sound. I once paid a stiff entrance fee to
see Aphex Twin to sit at the front and press play on
his laptop. I roughly estimate the bass was 40dB above
the mid and trebble. My favourite track was halfway
through before I even recognised it.

Bob

 

[z]

I like to go clubbing. I've noticed that sometimes the sound quality
is terrible. Distortion like clipping due to using underpowered amps.
I've also noticed that after a night out at these places I get a bad
ringing that lasts for weeks, and it's not just my regular tinnitus,
it's new tones and a weird screeching sound when I listen to everyday
loud noises.

It usually subsides after a few weeks. However, when I got to louder
techno places but with proper sound, I get ringing but it subsides
after a day or two.

I'm well aware that hearing doesn't regenerate itself and that any
extra ringing indicates the loss of more sensitive cells...

My theory is that the human ear protects itself by tightening the
eardrum or stiffening the impedance transformer at the entrance of the
canal. Is it possible that crappy sound with a low average level but
high peaks of distorsion energy actually let more sound into the ear?

I think that ultrasonic energy will damage your hearing, much like
invisible UV radiation will burn your skin. Do clipping amps generate
a lot of energy that is above 20KHz? I can't bring my equipment into
these clubs...

I'd like to start somewhere with this theory... I want clubs and bars
to have decent sound.

i tend to agree with you; the ear can protect itself from high levels
at low freqs by decoupling the incus and stapes with the stapedius
muscle. but i also noted that distorted lound sound gives me ringing
afterwards, whereas undistorted sound which seems louder doesn't; i
don't have any evidence but i'm guessing that the decoupling is less
effective on higher freqs. of course this would not be surprising
evolutionarily; the body tends to be protected against things that our
ancestors encountered but not things that they didn't; and high power
high frequency long duration sounds are not something commonly found
in nature, compared to high power low frequency long duration sounds.

 

[Adrian C]

Not in this pub that I have a long association with.
http://thehorn.co.uk/

What was that place doing between 1985-1990. Used to walk by it to catch
the 341 (or was it 340) to the Poly - never thought about stepping in!

Mind you St. Albans had a few too many pubs, it's all a bit of a blur...

 

[[email protected]]

i tend to agree with you; the ear can protect itself from high levels
at low freqs by decoupling the incus and stapes with the stapedius
muscle. but i also noted that distorted lound sound gives me ringing
afterwards, whereas undistorted sound which seems louder doesn't; i
don't have any evidence but i'm guessing that the decoupling is less
effective on higher freqs. of course this would not be surprising
evolutionarily; the body tends to be protected against things that our
ancestors encountered but not things that they didn't; and high power
high frequency long duration sounds are not something commonly found
in nature, compared to high power low frequency long duration sounds.

Son of a bitch. This was a home-brewed theory to explain these events.
It's good to hear someone else agreeing.
These cheap-ass club sound cocksuckers are causing harm to many
people. How can research this more so I can make a case?

 

[Eeyore]

What was that place doing between 1985-1990. Used to walk by it to catch
the 341 (or was it 340) to the Poly - never thought about stepping in!

That was its bad patch. Biker pub.

Mind you St. Albans had a few too many pubs, it's all a bit of a blur...

I hope it was a nice blur. ;~)

Graham