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WWVB Ferrite Antenna Revisited

J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim -- Did you mean 8 feet instead of 8" as you said?
[snip]

Nope. 8 INCHES in diameter, 100 turns of #28.

Loop piping and fiber junction were assembled and soldered. Then slit
all the way around to facilitate winding. Slit was squeezed closed
and then soldered. Crude but effective ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
OH man -- what a bad idea!! What was I thinking!
I misplaced the 7 Amidon cores that I had purcahsed for the antenna in all
the rubble in this house. I couldn't find them anywhere, so I went to
reorder them.

Holy smokes! The price is up to $21 each for the rods for a grand total
of $147. I must have been rolling in dough when I bought those.

Sorry for even mentioning it. I'd feel really bad if someone built it and it
didn't work well.

Looks like it's time to solder those 8 foot copper pipes together.
 
M

Mike Young

Jan 1, 1970
0
Maybe try posting in rec.radio.amateur.antenna. It's been a few years since
I peeked in there, but there was a whole lot of knowledge and expertise
underlying the flammage.
 
M

Mark

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob said:
OH man -- what a bad idea!! What was I thinking!
I misplaced the 7 Amidon cores that I had purcahsed for the antenna in all
the rubble in this house. I couldn't find them anywhere, so I went to
reorder them.

Holy smokes! The price is up to $21 each for the rods for a grand total
of $147. I must have been rolling in dough when I bought those.

Sorry for even mentioning it. I'd feel really bad if someone built it and it
didn't work well.

Looks like it's time to solder those 8 foot copper pipes together.


Even in a small transistor AM radio with a small loop antenna, the S/N
of the system is determined by atmospheric noise, not the noise in the
radio.

The noise figure of any decent amplifier will be 10 dB or better at
these frequencies. It doesn't take much of an antenna to pick up
enough atmospheric noise at 60 kHz to dominate that.

Electrostatic shileding helps because NEARBY man made noise is often
electric field because in the near filed it is 1/R^3, so in the near
field there is a lot of electric field and the shield will reject it.

Mark


Mark
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
You're correct. I'm suffering from years of designing LNA's in an
evvironment where Noise Figure was considered to be the dominant factor.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob said:
I just dug up an old design of mine where I was planning to use 7 Amidon
R33-050-750 0.5 inch by 7.5 inch rods in a bundle. i.e. one rod in the
center and six wrapped around it yeilding a "bumpy" 1.5 inch diameter
bundle.
(snip)

Bob, are you still out there? I figured out how you can make a
ferrite rod antenna for WWWVB that is equivalent to a 2.4 inch
diameter rod, 15 inches long (with the dumbbell structure I described
in this thread) for less than the $25 minimum order from Digikey.

Are you interested in the details?
 
R

Robert Scott

Jan 1, 1970
0
(snip)

Bob, are you still out there? I figured out how you can make a
ferrite rod antenna for WWWVB that is equivalent to a 2.4 inch
diameter rod, 15 inches long (with the dumbbell structure I described
in this thread) for less than the $25 minimum order from Digikey.

Are you interested in the details?

I don't know about Bob Agnew, but I am also interested. Please post
the details.


-Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
John Popelish wrote:


I don't know about Bob Agnew, but I am also interested. Please post
the details.

Here is the concept:

To a first approximation, antenna captures the magnetic energy from a
volume of space in proportion to the length of the ferrite rod, and
also in proportion to the area of the ends of the rod (or, in other
words, in proportional to the volume of space between the ends of the
rod). This description works regardless of the diameter of the middle
of the rod. The "regardless" part holds as long as the permeability
of the material is high enough that there is a lower reluctance path
through the necked down middle section is much lower than the
reluctance of a constant diameter cylindrical volume of space between
the large ends of the rod.

You can assemble (with epoxy) a stack of ferrite pieces into a long
rod middle section with a modest diameter, and add large diameter end
pieces as flux collectors, using low cost ferrite beads and plates
that allow a big cost savings, compared to buying a big cylindrical
rod of the same length and end diameter.

Here is an example with parts from Digikey:

Middle rod section made of 10 pieces of Steward 28B0591-200, 15mm dia.
35mm long, 5.9mm hole Bead @ $0.77 ea.

These stack into a 15 mm diameter hollow rod, 350 mm long. As best I
can tell, the leading 28 implies type 28 material, which, as best I
can tell from the Steward web site, is 125 permeability RF nickel zinc
ferrite.

The large pole pieces on each end is made of a Steward HM1400-300,
35.56mm dia. 2.54mm thick Disk @ $1.09 ea. epoxied into the end of a
Steward 28B2400-000, 60.96mm dia. 12.7mm long 35.56mm hole Bead
$3.36 ea.

Total cost for ferrite pieces, 10*.77 +2*(1.09+3.36)=$16.60

Since the dimension for the disk and end bead are the same, you may
need to trim the disk a bit or expand the hole with silicon carbide
sandpaper for a slip fit. The disk comes with adhesive on one side,
but I wouldn't use that side as the surface glued to the rod. Epoxy
is stronger and thinner. Use a slow cure (20 or 30 minute, not 3 or 5
minute) epoxy for more strength, unfilled for thinner joints. If the
middle pieces have rough ends, polish them down to smooth with a piece
of fine silicon carbide sandpaper laying on a piece of window glass or
other flat surface for low reluctance joints.

By my estimation, the reluctance of the rod is about 1/3rd of the
reluctance of a similar cylinder of space, so the assumption that most
of the flux entering one end will pass through the rod, and not around
it are fairly good.

Wind the middle third or so of the rod with the antenna coil. If
desired, cover the coil with a grounded shield made of thin brass shim
stock, being careful not to let the ends of the 1 turn wrap make
contact as a shorted turn. The number of turns and the gauge of wire
depend on the input impedance of the first stage amplifier and on how
much capacitance you want to use to tune the coil to 60kHz and how
narrow band you want the antenna to be.

If you want to add physical armor and protection from the elements,
seal the whole thing in a piece of 2.5 or 3 inch I.D. PVC pipe or just
coat it all over with epoxy.

Here are the Steward long links to details for these 3 pieces:
http://www.steward.com/web_part_no.... Round and Cylindrical Cores&part=28B0591-200
http://www.steward.com/web_part_no....&progroup=4. Disks and Plates&part=HM1400-300
http://www.steward.com/web_part_no.... Round and Cylindrical Cores&part=28B2400-000

I think this design should provide a big increase in signal energy
(say, 40 or more times) compared to the usual 1/4 or 1/2 inch
diameter, 5 to 7.5 inch long rod designs.
 
R

Robert Scott

Jan 1, 1970
0
..I think this design should provide a big increase in signal energy
(say, 40 or more times) compared to the usual 1/4 or 1/2 inch
diameter, 5 to 7.5 inch long rod designs...

I'm wondering how much signal energy is needed. If you have enough
antenna gain to bring the level of the RF noise up to more than the
level of the noise that is produced by the first amplifier, then any
additional antenna gain could just as well be replaced by amplifier
gain. I thought that RF noise in the VLF band was quite high, so it
would not take a very exotic low-noise amp to amplify the signal
without increasing the noise. So my question is, how close to that
break-even point do you get with the 5 to 7.5 inch long rod designs?


-Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
 
Robert said:
I'm wondering how much signal energy is needed. If you have enough
antenna gain to bring the level of the RF noise up to more than the
level of the noise that is produced by the first amplifier, then any
additional antenna gain could just as well be replaced by amplifier
gain. I thought that RF noise in the VLF band was quite high, so it
would not take a very exotic low-noise amp to amplify the signal
without increasing the noise. So my question is, how close to that
break-even point do you get with the 5 to 7.5 inch long rod designs?

You may be right. But I am in central Virginia, and Colorado is pretty
far away. At the very least, I think it is safe to say that a higher
gain antenna does not hurt your signal to noise ratio.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
You may be right. But I am in central Virginia, and Colorado is pretty
far away. At the very least, I think it is safe to say that a higher
gain antenna does not hurt your signal to noise ratio.

I'm in Arizona, but the signal from WWVB is really weak here, and hard
to pull out of the man-made noise.

...Jim Thompson
 
Jim said:
On 3 Dec 2005 10:33:55 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

I'm in Arizona, but the signal from WWVB is really weak here, and hard
to pull out of the man-made noise.

Perhaps several widely spaced antennas, broadside to the source and
combined, would cancel some of the local interferrance from other
directions. If not broadside then with adjustible delays to give best
correlation.

But high antenna gain, narrow band (high Q) antenna tuning,
amplification at the antenna and good electrostatic shielding would go
a long way toward a usable signal, even with just one, I suspect.
 
R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Here is the concept:

To a first approximation, antenna captures the magnetic energy from a
volume of space in proportion to the length of the ferrite rod, and also
in proportion to the area of the ends of the rod (or, in other words, in
proportional to the volume of space between the ends of the rod). This
description works regardless of the diameter of the middle of the rod.
The "regardless" part holds as long as the permeability of the material
is high enough that there is a lower reluctance path through the necked
down middle section is much lower than the reluctance of a constant
diameter cylindrical volume of space between the large ends of the rod.

You can assemble (with epoxy) a stack of ferrite pieces into a long rod
middle section with a modest diameter, and add large diameter end pieces
as flux collectors, using low cost ferrite beads and plates that allow a
big cost savings, compared to buying a big cylindrical rod of the same
length and end diameter.

Here is an example with parts from Digikey:

Middle rod section made of 10 pieces of Steward 28B0591-200, 15mm dia.
35mm long, 5.9mm hole Bead @ $0.77 ea.

These stack into a 15 mm diameter hollow rod, 350 mm long. As best I
can tell, the leading 28 implies type 28 material, which, as best I can
tell from the Steward web site, is 125 permeability RF nickel zinc ferrite.

The large pole pieces on each end is made of a Steward HM1400-300,
35.56mm dia. 2.54mm thick Disk @ $1.09 ea. epoxied into the end of a
Steward 28B2400-000, 60.96mm dia. 12.7mm long 35.56mm hole Bead
$3.36 ea.

Total cost for ferrite pieces, 10*.77 +2*(1.09+3.36)=$16.60

Since the dimension for the disk and end bead are the same, you may need
to trim the disk a bit or expand the hole with silicon carbide sandpaper
for a slip fit. The disk comes with adhesive on one side, but I
wouldn't use that side as the surface glued to the rod. Epoxy is
stronger and thinner. Use a slow cure (20 or 30 minute, not 3 or 5
minute) epoxy for more strength, unfilled for thinner joints. If the
middle pieces have rough ends, polish them down to smooth with a piece
of fine silicon carbide sandpaper laying on a piece of window glass or
other flat surface for low reluctance joints.

By my estimation, the reluctance of the rod is about 1/3rd of the
reluctance of a similar cylinder of space, so the assumption that most
of the flux entering one end will pass through the rod, and not around
it are fairly good.

Wind the middle third or so of the rod with the antenna coil. If
desired, cover the coil with a grounded shield made of thin brass shim
stock, being careful not to let the ends of the 1 turn wrap make contact
as a shorted turn. The number of turns and the gauge of wire depend on
the input impedance of the first stage amplifier and on how much
capacitance you want to use to tune the coil to 60kHz and how narrow
band you want the antenna to be.

If you want to add physical armor and protection from the elements, seal
the whole thing in a piece of 2.5 or 3 inch I.D. PVC pipe or just coat
it all over with epoxy.

Here are the Steward long links to details for these 3 pieces:
http://www.steward.com/web_part_no.... Round and Cylindrical Cores&part=28B0591-200

http://www.steward.com/web_part_no....&progroup=4. Disks and Plates&part=HM1400-300

http://www.steward.com/web_part_no.... Round and Cylindrical Cores&part=28B2400-000


I think this design should provide a big increase in signal energy (say,
40 or more times) compared to the usual 1/4 or 1/2 inch diameter, 5 to
7.5 inch long rod designs.
The Steward drawings are rather confusing.
*Two* different drawings, but dimensions and info only for "figure
number 1" in all 3 cases.
If "HM.." stands for "disk" according to their part numbering system,
then why *two* drawings for the HM part???
Also, if "28B.." stands for "bead" (as contrasted to "28R.." for
"ribbon"), then (again) why *two* drawings for the 28B part???
Crazy.
BTW, the DigiKey part info is:
28B0591-200 240-2242-ND @ $0.92 ea ($0.761 ea @ 10)
HM1400-300 240-2251-ND @ $1.09 ea ($0.903 ea @ 10)
28B2400-000 240-2120-ND @ $3.36 ea ($2.786 ea @ 10)
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
John Popelish wrote: (snip)

The Steward drawings are rather confusing.
*Two* different drawings, but dimensions and info only for "figure
number 1" in all 3 cases.

I have no compliments for Steward. Try finding the ferrite curves for
type 28.

I really prefer a higher permeability ferrite for a 60 kHz antenna
(perhaps with split beads glued together to lower the eddy currents)
but the 28 series was available in better sizes from a cost to benefit
ratio.
If "HM.." stands for "disk" according to their part numbering system,
then why *two* drawings for the HM part???

M stands for disk, P stands for plate, but they show both outlines on
all M or P details. I guess it was important to save one drawing.
Also, if "28B.." stands for "bead" (as contrasted to "28R.." for
"ribbon"), then (again) why *two* drawings for the 28B part???
Crazy.

Again, I guess it was important to save one drawing. Let thousands of
customers work it out. Their time is cheap.
BTW, the DigiKey part info is:
28B0591-200 240-2242-ND @ $0.92 ea ($0.761 ea @ 10)

I rounded that up to $0.77
HM1400-300 240-2251-ND @ $1.09 ea ($0.903 ea @ 10)
28B2400-000 240-2120-ND @ $3.36 ea ($2.786 ea @ 10)

But one antenna uses only 2 of each of these, so I quoted the single
piece price.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Popelish wrote:
(snip)
These stack into a 15 mm diameter hollow rod, 350 mm long. As best I
can tell, the leading 28 implies type 28 material, which, as best I can
tell from the Steward web site, is 125 permeability RF nickel zinc ferrite.
(snip)

I just found a better description of type 28 material on page 6 of the
Toroid catalog:
http://www.steward.com/pdfs/ToroidCatalog-rev11-C.pdf
that indicates type 28 has a permeability of 850, not 125 as I
thought. This means that this material is pretty good for the design
I described, but type 38 (permeability of 1700) would be better.
 
R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I have no compliments for Steward. Try finding the ferrite curves for
type 28.

I really prefer a higher permeability ferrite for a 60 kHz antenna
(perhaps with split beads glued together to lower the eddy currents) but
the 28 series was available in better sizes from a cost to benefit ratio.



M stands for disk, P stands for plate, but they show both outlines on
all M or P details. I guess it was important to save one drawing.



Again, I guess it was important to save one drawing. Let thousands of
customers work it out. Their time is cheap.



I rounded that up to $0.77



But one antenna uses only 2 of each of these, so I quoted the single
piece price.
No complaints...was giving DigiKey part numbers and pricing.
 

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