WTD: Fadal 903-1 NC VMC Programming/Operations/Service Manual or Reference

[Rich Grise]

[crossposted as seen in header, but followups-to not set, so if you want
to followup, please insert your own newsgroup as followups-to.
Thanks! -- Richard The Smart Crossposter]

Hi, me again.

I sit in a little office adjoining a machine shop/fab (welding) shop.
There's an NC machine there, a "Fadal VMC 45 MACHINING CENTER"
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/fadal-2.jpg
From the front, it looks like this:
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/fadal-1.jpg
And here's as close to name plates as I can find:
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/fadal-3.jpg
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/fadal-4.jpg .

Well, here's the thing.

There's only one guy who anybody at the company even knows _about_
who knows how to program this thing. (I suspect he's thinking, "job
security".) But it seems that there have been rumblings to the effect
that if the other machinist, or anybody, could learn how to program
the thing, that the boss wouldn't be too unhappy if Guy A should
get swallowed up by an earthquake, or whatever, if you get my drift.

But Guy B seems to indicate that there is no information available
anywhere on the planet that could teach a mere De Facto Engineer
to program it. Except, of course, for the manuals that are kept
under armed guard and cost a hundred thousand dollars a copy. And
even at _that_ price, you have to know somebody who knows somebody
who knows somebody, before they'll even talk to you.

I find this a little evasive.

Admittedly, I'd have asked a long time ago if the PHB and Guy A
and Guy B weren't all so paranoid and insecure - if they were
normal people, I'd just waltz up and say, "Yeah, I can do that -
Guy A, lessee the manuals. Guy B, you might wanna watch or
whatever, so you'll know the stuff too, in case I fall down
the same fault as Guy A. Boss, I'll let you know when these
guys clue up. If it takes longer than Friday Morning, I'll
have a progress report waiting on your desk."

But noOOOOOoooooooh! I gotta surreptitiously sneak in there, get
the model number off the machine that only Guy A knows anything
about, and I think Guy B is superstitious - it's well-known,
shop-wide, that there's no love lost between Guy A and Guy B.
The PHB is in a love-hate relationship with both, but that's
only because psychotics are generally in a love-hate relationship
with whatever's in front of them.

Anywhoo, now that we've got the background down, what's the
cheapest I can get my hands on enough docs on this puppy to
be able to walk up to that control panel and key in a tool
path?

I have CAD S/W that can put out its output in whatever form is
needed - I might need to read up a little on Gerber files, but
that seems to be an NC standard. But I also would need to find
something to read up on in for the Fadal.

And, when we get to it, I can connect the computer to any
machine, when you get right down to it. If it has its own
interface, of course, that makes it much, much easier. ;-p

And that's not to mention how the PHB's eyes will pop out
when I sit here at the work station, and show him my drawing
and tool path, and hit "send" and have the machine start
making chips. ;-)

So, my question is, does anybody have any kind of docs on that
machine? A price could be paid, but we'd have to talk or
something. This is just the first feeler, after all.

Thanks!
Rich

 

[PrecisionMachinisT]

[crossposted as seen in header, but followups-to not set, so if you want
to followup, please insert your own newsgroup as followups-to.
Thanks! -- Richard The Smart Crossposter]

Hi, me again.

I sit in a little office adjoining a machine shop/fab (welding) shop.
There's an NC machine there, a "Fadal VMC 45 MACHINING CENTER"
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/fadal-2.jpg
From the front, it looks like this:
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/fadal-1.jpg
And here's as close to name plates as I can find:
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/fadal-3.jpg
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/fadal-4.jpg .

Well, here's the thing.

There's only one guy who anybody at the company even knows _about_
who knows how to program this thing. (I suspect he's thinking, "job
security".) But it seems that there have been rumblings to the effect
that if the other machinist, or anybody, could learn how to program
the thing, that the boss wouldn't be too unhappy if Guy A should
get swallowed up by an earthquake, or whatever, if you get my drift.

But Guy B seems to indicate that there is no information available
anywhere on the planet that could teach a mere De Facto Engineer
to program it. Except, of course, for the manuals that are kept
under armed guard and cost a hundred thousand dollars a copy. And
even at _that_ price, you have to know somebody who knows somebody
who knows somebody, before they'll even talk to you.

I find this a little evasive.

Admittedly, I'd have asked a long time ago if the PHB and Guy A
and Guy B weren't all so paranoid and insecure - if they were
normal people, I'd just waltz up and say, "Yeah, I can do that -
Guy A, lessee the manuals. Guy B, you might wanna watch or
whatever, so you'll know the stuff too, in case I fall down
the same fault as Guy A. Boss, I'll let you know when these
guys clue up. If it takes longer than Friday Morning, I'll
have a progress report waiting on your desk."

But noOOOOOoooooooh! I gotta surreptitiously sneak in there, get
the model number off the machine that only Guy A knows anything
about, and I think Guy B is superstitious - it's well-known,
shop-wide, that there's no love lost between Guy A and Guy B.
The PHB is in a love-hate relationship with both, but that's
only because psychotics are generally in a love-hate relationship
with whatever's in front of them.

Anywhoo, now that we've got the background down, what's the
cheapest I can get my hands on enough docs on this puppy to
be able to walk up to that control panel and key in a tool
path?

I have CAD S/W that can put out its output in whatever form is
needed - I might need to read up a little on Gerber files, but
that seems to be an NC standard. But I also would need to find
something to read up on in for the Fadal.

And, when we get to it, I can connect the computer to any
machine, when you get right down to it. If it has its own
interface, of course, that makes it much, much easier. ;-p

And that's not to mention how the PHB's eyes will pop out
when I sit here at the work station, and show him my drawing
and tool path, and hit "send" and have the machine start
making chips. ;-)

So, my question is, does anybody have any kind of docs on that
machine? A price could be paid, but we'd have to talk or
something. This is just the first feeler, after all.

http://www.fadal.com/index.php?id=788

 

[Chuck Harris]

http://www.fadal.com/index.php?id=788

Ok, you've got your documents. An evening's downloading, and you will
have everything that the other guys have. But... there is alot more to
running a CNC machine than just writing the G-code programs. Feeds, and
speeds, ... CNC machines can break tools, eat themselves, and throw work
faster than the eye can blink.

As a bare minimun, get yourself a copy of Machinery's Handbook.

-Chuck

 

[Anthony]

CNC machines can break tools, eat themselves, and throw work
faster than the eye can blink.

Hehe...you've seen that also, huh?

Just remember....it isn't classified as a 'CRASH' unless they have to haul
it out on a truck......everything else is just an 'oops'.

Oh...and to the OP: See that BIG RED BUTTON on the front that says E-STOP?
That is mis-labeled. For a CNC machine, that is the "It's too late" button.

--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

http://www.machines-cnc.net:81/

 

[Rich Grise]

....

http://www.fadal.com/index.php?id=788

Thank you 10^12!

I don't know if I should be astonished or flabbergasted - I swear,
they made it sound like there _was_ no such thing!

But they keep me in the dark here and feed me bullshit. Here's a
case in point: One day, some months ago, the PHB came into my office
with a print of a part. It's some kind of valve part or something -
fairly small, about the size of your fist, but it has a couple
of holes in it that have to be cut fairly precisely. Well, the
PHB starts pointing to this one hole, and rather than get to the
point, he's saying, "Well, call out this angle here, and the
dimension from this surface to that angle, and yadda yadda..."

So, eventually I got this hole detailed, printed it, and that's
the last I heard of it.

Until one day I was watching them make those parts on the Fadal.
It goes and does a tool change, and lo and behold! There's the
cutter that the PHB made it such an arduous task to just draw
the outline of for the grinder guy! Geez, boss! If all you
wanted was the outline of the cutter that makes that hole,
why didn't you just say, "Rich, draw the outline of the cutter
for this hole" rather than, "Well, call out this angle, and
give me a dimension from this line to that corner, and I need
an OD here, and ..."

Oh, well.

Anyway, thanks again, and to the other guys - I already know
about the "too late" button, but I've also learned that if it's
halfway through its sequence (process? pattern? - well, I'll
get it), it's OK to start over at the beginning, because where
it's been cut, there's no metal. Duh! ;-)

So, yeah, a morning's downloading, and about a week of reading,
and I'll be ready to break tools! ;-P ;-P <just kidding!>

Thanks!
Rich

 

[PrecisionMachinisT]

Thank you 10^12!

I don't know if I should be astonished or flabbergasted - I swear,
they made it sound like there _was_ no such thing!

But they keep me in the dark here and feed me bullshit. Here's a
case in point: One day, some months ago, the PHB came into my office
with a print of a part. It's some kind of valve part or something -
fairly small, about the size of your fist, but it has a couple
of holes in it that have to be cut fairly precisely. Well, the
PHB starts pointing to this one hole, and rather than get to the
point, he's saying, "Well, call out this angle here, and the
dimension from this surface to that angle, and yadda yadda..."

So, eventually I got this hole detailed, printed it, and that's
the last I heard of it.

Until one day I was watching them make those parts on the Fadal.
It goes and does a tool change, and lo and behold! There's the
cutter that the PHB made it such an arduous task to just draw
the outline of for the grinder guy! Geez, boss! If all you
wanted was the outline of the cutter that makes that hole,
why didn't you just say, "Rich, draw the outline of the cutter
for this hole" rather than, "Well, call out this angle, and
give me a dimension from this line to that corner, and I need
an OD here, and ..."

Oh, well.

Anyway, thanks again, and to the other guys - I already know
about the "too late" button, but I've also learned that if it's
halfway through its sequence (process? pattern? - well, I'll
get it), it's OK to start over at the beginning, because where
it's been cut, there's no metal. Duh! ;-)

So, yeah, a morning's downloading, and about a week of reading,
and I'll be ready to break tools! ;-P ;-P <just kidding!>

Much of the information on the download site will be for their newer
controllers, etc...still...suggest call Fadal, it wouldn't surprise me one
bit to find they still have manuals available specifically for that old
beast.

 

[Gary H. Lucas]

Thank you 10^12!

I don't know if I should be astonished or flabbergasted - I swear,
they made it sound like there _was_ no such thing!

But they keep me in the dark here and feed me bullshit. Here's a
case in point: One day, some months ago, the PHB came into my office
with a print of a part. It's some kind of valve part or something -
fairly small, about the size of your fist, but it has a couple
of holes in it that have to be cut fairly precisely. Well, the
PHB starts pointing to this one hole, and rather than get to the
point, he's saying, "Well, call out this angle here, and the
dimension from this surface to that angle, and yadda yadda..."

So, eventually I got this hole detailed, printed it, and that's
the last I heard of it.

Until one day I was watching them make those parts on the Fadal.
It goes and does a tool change, and lo and behold! There's the
cutter that the PHB made it such an arduous task to just draw
the outline of for the grinder guy! Geez, boss! If all you
wanted was the outline of the cutter that makes that hole,
why didn't you just say, "Rich, draw the outline of the cutter
for this hole" rather than, "Well, call out this angle, and
give me a dimension from this line to that corner, and I need
an OD here, and ..."

Oh, well.

Anyway, thanks again, and to the other guys - I already know
about the "too late" button, but I've also learned that if it's
halfway through its sequence (process? pattern? - well, I'll
get it), it's OK to start over at the beginning, because where
it's been cut, there's no metal. Duh! ;-)

So, yeah, a morning's downloading, and about a week of reading,
and I'll be ready to break tools! ;-P ;-P <just kidding!>

Thanks!
Rich

Rich,
Been there, done this, got the broken tools and scrapped parts to prove it.
A CNC is just big printer. All your mistakes get written in metal! The
Fadal guy goes on vacation, leaving a hot job sitting on the table, and no
one else in the shop has ever run a CNC mill. The boss asks if I have any
experience. It just happens I do, on a tiny little Emco desktop school
machine, cutting wax! So I tell him I'll take the manual home and let him
know in the morning. I read the manual, which I thought was quite good, and
I realize that I can probably do this.

The first thing I did was pull the hot job out of the machine. Hey I'm not
that stupid. I am NOT going to learn on a steel valve forging that is so
big I have no more that 1/2" of travel clearance in any direction. It needs
three 12" flange faces and bolt holes machined, and back faced. It also has
a 6" x 8 pitch thread to be threadmilled, 10" down inside where the whole
operation will be completely out of sight. The valve forging did have one
interesting feature already machined, a slot obviously done manually down to
the finished face of one flange. I couldn't figure out what the hell that
was for, so I asked another machinist. I almost fell down when he told me.
It was how the guy running the Fadal set his tools, he didn't know how to
use tool length offsets with a fixture offset!

A short time later I removed a 400 lb welded steel plate he had added to the
table, so he had overhangs that he could use with C-clamps to hold parts!
When I removed it I found it had piles of shims under it, and that it was
warping the machine table too. After that I had to adjust the head gibs
because the head was tilted forwards so a 4" cutter would leave a 0.010"
step from cut to cut! I guess he never noticed, because the largest cutter
he had a toolholder for was 1".

What everyone here is saying is true, feeds and speeds are killers until you
learn about them. You won't get much help in this area from the manual
machinists in the shop either. It's not that they don't know, it's because
they know it by sight, feel, smell etc. and not by the inches per minute, or
rpms.

One thing I really liked about the Fadal. It's macro language is just old
time DOS Mbasic. So it is real easy to write very powerful macros that can
do big things with little programs.

Finally, check and see if Fadal still has the Fadal Simulator program that
runs on a PC. Since the Fadal has a qwerty keyboard the simulator works on
a PC exactly as it does on the machine. It has a toolpath mode that shows
the centerline moves of your tools. This will let you run a program and
test to see if it tries to go off the end of the table, or through the
table! It won't however give any indication if the part will be right!

After running the machine for about 4 months they hired a new machinist to
run the Fadal, and I went back to design work, and continued to do
programming. The operator was very experienced and very good. One day he
says to me "You really are a good programmer, how long you been doing this?"
I said "4 months" He says "Yeah I know you've been here for 4 months, but
how long have you been programming CNCs?" I said "4 months, since I started
here" He couldn't believe it. I told him it was just a computer tied to a
big printer, and I know something about programming computers! While it
felt good, I won't pretend to be a real machinist. Some real machinists
hang out here, and I wouldn't want to insult them. But the point of all
this is:

GO FOR IT!

Gary H. Lucas