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Window Foil

M

Matthew Stanley

Jan 1, 1970
0
I did a window foil job today for a customer I have. He has a store front
that has 4' wide by 8' tall single pane glass windows in the front. A total
of 4. 2 on each side..


My question is, how many guy out there still do foil jobs and what do you
charge?

Hourly, by each window, by job etc......

I'm kinda interested because I would like to do more foil jobs. I have
always liked foil over window bugs and what not.

M
 
M

Matthew Stanley

Jan 1, 1970
0
I know one customer who still has window foil on all windows. When I took
the account over 3 years ago, I tried to get him to use another product. He
would not. He told me he likes it because from the street, people can tell
he has an alarm system or they may think he does. I kind of agree... so, I
keep a roll of it around just in case I have a problem.. But when I took the
account over, I made sure the polyurethane over the foil was in good shape.
Since then, I have given the system another coat just to be on the safe
side.



So far so good. My basement windows which I just installed in the fall, all
have window foil on it as well. I guess some people may not like it...It
might take too long, but I think it's something that, if well taken care of,
it can actually be a really good protection tool for any alarm system....



M
 
S

ssokoly

Jan 1, 1970
0
Matthew said:
I did a window foil job today for a customer I have. He has a store front
that has 4' wide by 8' tall single pane glass windows in the front. A total
of 4. 2 on each side..


My question is, how many guy out there still do foil jobs and what do you
charge?

Hourly, by each window, by job etc......

I'm kinda interested because I would like to do more foil jobs. I have
always liked foil over window bugs and what not.

M
You're joking right? Foiling is a lost art for very good reasons. 1.
Technology has advanced. 2. Most Suppliers don't have foil anymore since
Brooklyn Foil went out of business. 3. Headaches Headaches Headaches.
4. There is no 4 5.Window washers.

My consensus is usually this, if the customer that we takeover has foil
and its in good condition we leave it. If it starts causing a problem
its gone and replaced with Sentrol 5150's or an acoustic glassbreak.
 
J

Jim

Jan 1, 1970
0
You're joking right? Foiling is a lost art for very good reasons. 1.
Technology has advanced. 2. Most Suppliers don't have foil anymore since
Brooklyn Foil went out of business. 3. Headaches Headaches Headaches.
4. There is no 4 5.Window washers.

My consensus is usually this, if the customer that we takeover has foil
and its in good condition we leave it. If it starts causing a problem
its gone and replaced with Sentrol 5150's or an acoustic glassbreak.-


Coming from the time when there were no "foil blocks" and there were
only brass takeoffs and soldering, I find it amusing to see all the
negative things that everyone finds about foiling. Not that they
aren't true. But the amusing part is .... that eveyone (most/many) has
been brain washed into thinking that glass break detectors are just as
good as foil. And some people (much younger, of course) actually think
that glass break detectors are BETTER than foil.

Not that I don't use glass breaks, but at least I provide for the
necessary redundancy that those who don't even *think* about the short
coming of glass break detectors, don't provide to their clients. I see
it all the time. That big gaping hole in the detection, in most
commercial installations nowdays.

And not surprisingly, no one has mentioned it in this thread either.
 
S

secure15

Jan 1, 1970
0
Take your ancient "Brain-Dead" Foil and "Stick it" on something more
useless like your #$@!
I'm not 'much younger"; and just like foil, its all about installing
PROPERLY!
I bet you even put glassbreaks on a 24 hour interior zone cause that's
what you used to do with foil!
 
S

sockozy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Matthew said:
I did a window foil job today for a customer I have. He has a store front
that has 4' wide by 8' tall single pane glass windows in the front. A total
of 4. 2 on each side..


My question is, how many guy out there still do foil jobs and what do you
charge?

Hourly, by each window, by job etc......

I'm kinda interested because I would like to do more foil jobs. I have
always liked foil over window bugs and what not.

M
curses, foiled again!
 
J

Jim

Jan 1, 1970
0
Take your ancient "Brain-Dead" Foil and "Stick it" on something more
useless like your #$@!
I'm not 'much younger"; and just like foil, its all about installing
PROPERLY!
I bet you even put glassbreaks on a 24 hour interior zone cause that's
what you used to do with foil!

I'm not sure if you're addressing me in your post or not but I DO
think foil is the better type of glass break detection. I don't use it
anymore, because it's labor intensive, considering the alternative
methods. I DO service the remaining foil installations that I've done
though the years if they can be salvaged. I purchased a dozen rolls of
foil before Brooklyn Foil Co closed down, along with all the
accessories. The perisable stuff, ( foil and blocks) are in my
freezer. I've got more than enough to last for however long I'll need
it.

What I was alluding to in my previous post is that the use of glass
break detectors has evolved into such common use and what has been
lost in the transition is that typically the people who use them now
days, consider them just as secure as window foil ..... or don't even
think or know about the short coming of them. There isn't any way to
supervise a glass break detector. There are thousands of glass break
detectors out there, maybe millions and no one has any idea if they
are going to work when the time comes. No one even considers that and
therefore most never back them up with a motion detector or some other
interior trap.

And of course the customers are not told about this and are sitting
there, fat and happy that they've got such a great secure alarm system
and they don't have that "ugly silver foily stuff" on their windows.

Properly installed window foil is still the most secure way to detect
glass breakage.
 
J

Jim

Jan 1, 1970
0
what you used to do with foil!

I think they called it a "Day Zone" back then. Meaning disarmed = buzz on
fault; Armed = alarm on fault.

Yes it was a Day zone, but it rarely did what it was supposed to do.
More often than not, when the customer would hear the buzz, either
they didn't remember what it meant and would silence it or they knew
what it meant and they would silence it. But either way, they still
wouldn't call you until they were ready to close and couldn't arm the
system. Then it was your fault because you couldn't get there until
tomorrow. (sigh)
 
N

Nomen Nescio

Jan 1, 1970
0
curses, foiled again!

You've got that backwards. It's:

"Foiled! Curses again!"
 
A

autonut843

Jan 1, 1970
0
You for to add the following, and the only way to "really test" the Glass
Break Detectors is to pick up a brick and throw it thru the window.

If you put an empty jar in a paper bag and break it, won't that test
it just fine?
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you put an empty jar in a paper bag and break it, won't that
testit just fine?

It depends on which detectors you're using. Some detectors
(IntelliSense, for example) are designed to detect the high frequency
cracking of the glass plus the low frequency pulse caused by striking
the glass. The low frequency sound depends on the glass being part
of the perimeter of the space, like the skin on a drum. These are
tested by thumping the glass, which in turn triggers the tester to
emit a sound similar to glass shattering.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-232-0791
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>
 
B

Beachcomber

Jan 1, 1970
0
It depends on which detectors you're using. Some detectors
(IntelliSense, for example) are designed to detect the high frequency
cracking of the glass plus the low frequency pulse caused by striking
the glass. The low frequency sound depends on the glass being part
of the perimeter of the space, like the skin on a drum. These are
tested by thumping the glass, which in turn triggers the tester to
emit a sound similar to glass shattering.

A questions for the pros about glass break detectors from an old foil
installer (who did a lot of drug and liquor stores... back in the
70's).

Do you have any personal knowledge of a case where there was an
otherwise properly armed alarm system with glass break detectors where
the GBD failed to go off when the intruder broke in? It would seem
to me that that would be the worst case scenario. I know that some of
the best of them would go off during a thunderstorm, but that could
happen to the foil window systems too.

A basic loop alarm seems so simple, but plunger contacts can stick,
foil can partially break, motion detectors can trip from pets and air
turbulance, magnetic reed contacts can fuse together.

Will the so called "Swingers" always be with us, or are there new
developments in technology to minimize false alarms.

Beachcomber
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
Beachcomber said:
A questions for the pros about glass break detectors from an old
foil
installer (who did a lot of drug and liquor stores... back in the
70's).

Do you have any personal knowledge of a case where there was an
otherwise properly armed alarm system with glass break detectors
where
the GBD failed to go off when the intruder broke in?

Yes. The detectors were made by IEI. A unit mounted on the ceiling,
directly in front of a glass door completely failed in service with
no warning. Fortunately, there was a PIR which detected the thief
the moment he entered. Upon inspection it was found that a cap on
the glassbreak's circuit board had failed, leaking an oily substance.
There was no sign of lightning or other external cause for the
failure.
It would seem to me that that would be the worst case scenario...

The only worse case would be if there was no backup. Others here
have mentioned that they don't like to rely on glassbreak detectors
as the sole protection and this is one reason they're right. I
prefer to use glassbreaks as an adjunct to door and window contacts
but always recommend at least basic motion detection as a backup.
I know that some of the best of them would go off during a
thunderstorm, but that could happen to the foil window systems too.

True, but properly applied foil was one of the least problematic
types of detection we used. Most of our jobs were residential so I
mainly used foil on basement windows. We did a fair number of
commercial jobs though and foil on glass entry doors was a nuisance.
Will the so called "Swingers" always be with us...

Except for when he vacations on his rowboat, Jimbo will likely
continue swinging both ways.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-232-0791
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>
 
M

Matthew Stanley

Jan 1, 1970
0
A customer I have that I took over 3 years ago had a newer DSC system
installed. I added a DSC acuity 100 GBD ontop of the door contact, DV300
motion and Window Foil they already had. The GBD was on its own zone. During
the night, some kids took a brick and smashed out the front display window.
The glass break didnt go off. However, the window did sound the alarm. The
bell started to ring in the front of the store and scared them away. Now the
strage thing is, I tested the GBD with DSC's handheld tester and it work
when installed. When I went back to check it, It failed.

To this date, I will use DSC panels, Motions, but no Glass Break Detectors.
I now use Rokonet.(however, I dont use their motions) So I was kinda glad
that I kept the window foil connected. In the past I always disconnected the
crap if I took an account over and installed GBD's. But now, if it works, I
keep it connected. Then, if a window has been smashed and they replace it, I
will foil the window to match the rest of the windows.

M
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Matthew said:
A customer I have that I took over 3 years ago had a newer DSC system
installed. I added a DSC acuity 100 GBD ontop of the door contact, DV300
motion and Window Foil they already had. The GBD was on its own zone. During
the night, some kids took a brick and smashed out the front display window.
The glass break didnt go off. However, the window did sound the alarm. The
bell started to ring in the front of the store and scared them away. Now the
strage thing is, I tested the GBD with DSC's handheld tester and it work
when installed. When I went back to check it, It failed.

To this date, I will use DSC panels, Motions, but no Glass Break Detectors.
I now use Rokonet.(however, I dont use their motions) So I was kinda glad
that I kept the window foil connected. In the past I always disconnected the
crap if I took an account over and installed GBD's. But now, if it works, I
keep it connected. Then, if a window has been smashed and they replace it, I
will foil the window to match the rest of the windows.

M


On the older model DSC glass breaks they used to attach the microphone
to the cct board via really thin red and black wires (on the order of
32AWG). If you weren't careful mounting the unit, you'd break one of
the wires. If you didn't test the unit (using their tester), you'd
never know the unit didn't work. We recently took over a system in a
restaurant that employed these older units. 3 out of the 6 installed
had broken wires.
 
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