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Wind Speed Problem with Heathkit ID-4001

G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a problem with my Heathkit ID-4001 Weather Station. The wind
speed works fine if there is any wind but when there is a calm wind
condition it occasionally starts giving erratic wind speeds. If it
should be reading zero speed, it reads zero and then jumps to a higher
wind speed, such as 32 and then back down to zero or up to 41. There
doesn't seem to be any pattern that I can discern. The actual wind
speed values tend to be random and when they occur appears to be random.
It can go for some time sitting at zero and then give an erroneous
reading or several erroneous readings in quick succession and then set
at zero for an another period of time. As soon the wind picks up it
appears to read the wind speed flawlessly.

Any ideas on what the problem might be or what to check for?

Thanks.
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
Does this system controller measure the speed by reading a voltage
from the sensor (with voltage being proportion to wind speed) or is it
counting pulses (1, or N pulses per revolution, hence frequency is
proportional to speed)?

If it's counting pulses, then I might suspect either of:

It is indeed counting pulses.

- A "bouncing" switch in the sensor, which is just barely making
contact at the point at which the sensor has stopped spinning, and
is vibrating open and closed. The cure for this would be a better
sensor-switch - one with enough hysteresis that it opens or closes
firmly and doesn't jitter back and forth.

It is not a mechanical switch. The pulse generator consists of an IR
LED that shines on IR sensor with a plastic disk in between that has a
series of black stripes painted around the edge of it. When the wind
cups spin, the disk spins so the black stripes interrupt the IR path
between transmitter and sensor generating pulses. The pulses then to go
to a base of a transistor that I assume is a switching transistor that
is either fully on or fully off. It is an NPN transistor in common
emitter configuration and the output of that is fed directly into the
CPU for counting the pulses in a given time frame for wind speed
determination.
- RF interference from a local transmitter, with the RF signal
"looking like" contact opens and closures to the control unit. The
cure here would be some amount of RF snubbing being added to the
line to the sensors - possibly wrapping the wires around some
ferrites, possibly adding a small amount of capacitance across the
line to shunt out the RF, or possibly both.

I thought about the possibility of noise pickup and put some a capacitor
across the line where it connects to the weather station and it did not
seem to help.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
 
D

Dave

Jan 1, 1970
0
jitter back and forth.
It is not a mechanical switch. The pulse generator consists of an IR
LED that shines on IR sensor with a plastic disk in between that has a
series of black stripes painted around the edge of it. When the wind
cups spin, the disk spins so the black stripes interrupt the IR path
between transmitter and sensor generating pulses. The pulses then to go
to a base of a transistor that I assume is a switching transistor that
is either fully on or fully off. It is an NPN transistor in common
emitter configuration and the output of that is fed directly into the
CPU for counting the pulses in a given time frame for wind speed
determination.
If the disk happens to stop partially blocking the IR transmission path, you
might get random pulses...

Probe the signal at both the input and output of the NPN transistor.
That'll tell you if it's the sensor, the transistor, or the CPU which is
causing the issue.
 
E

Elephant

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a problem with my Heathkit ID-4001 Weather Station. The wind
speed works fine if there is any wind but when there is a calm wind
condition it occasionally starts giving erratic wind speeds. If it
should be reading zero speed, it reads zero and then jumps to a higher
wind speed, such as 32 and then back down to zero or up to 41. There
doesn't seem to be any pattern that I can discern. The actual wind
speed values tend to be random and when they occur appears to be random.

<snip>

I have an ID-4001 and I'm running into a similar problem. Mine, however
is with the direction giving random readings. In normal operation, say
the wind is from the southeast. All of a sudden, the indicator will
jump to northwest. It doesn't "turn" to the northwest, it will all of a
sudden "jump" there. I've tried to get it to do it by manually
rotating the wind vane, but just can't seem to re-create the problem.

I'm kind of thinking that the problem may be in the 8-wire cable. I'm
still using the original cable that came with the kit. Having wire
outside for that many years, maybe it's corroding and not allowing the
full 5 volts through.

Just a thought. Anyone care to comment?

Since it's not a constant problem, I haven't set aside time to check
voltages.
 
It is indeed counting pulses.


It is not a mechanical switch.   The pulse generator consists of an IR
LED that shines on IR sensor with a plastic disk in between that has a
series of black stripes painted around the edge of it. When the wind
cups spin, the disk spins so the black stripes interrupt the IR path
between transmitter and sensor generating pulses.  The pulses then to go
to a base of a transistor that I assume is a switching transistor that
is either fully on or fully off.  It is an NPN transistor in common
emitter configuration and the output of that is fed directly into the
CPU for counting the pulses in a given time frame for wind speed
determination.




I thought about the possibility of noise pickup and put some a capacitor
across the line where it connects to the weather station and it did not
seem to help.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Have you tried the simplest and just clean the disc and
semiconductors? We have tape machines at work with optical tachs that
require cleaning on occasion (many years between cleanings). My
Kensington trackball (optical tach) was screwing up last week, cursor
bouncing like your wind speed readings. A good cleaning has it working
well again.

GG
 
B

Bryce

Jan 1, 1970
0
I agree with the suggested cleaning of the optics.

.... or wait for a service pack release from Heathkit!
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
I agree with the suggested cleaning of the optics.

... or wait for a service pack release from Heathkit!
ROFL on that last statement. I could be waiting one heck of a long time
for Heathkit to rise from the dead.

As for cleaning, I have had the wind sensors down for repair on many
occasions and not being clean is not the problem. The last time was just
the other day when I replaced both the LED and photosensor as a possible
cure thinking one of those might be the problem. The disk was just fine.
Often they rub against one of the LEDs and it wears the paint off so the
striping is no longer effective but this is not the case here.

Actually I think I am tired of fighting with it. It is almost 30 years
old and it is very prone to static and nearby lightning strikes. It is
so bad that I unplug it and disconnect the wind sensors for most of the
summer because if I don't, I will be taking the wind sensors down at
least once during the summer to put new parts in. One time it was so
bad that when I took it apart, I found the top had actually been blown
off one of the components and several others were also dead. It also
doesn't have humidity, rainfall, and other features that some of the
newer units do. After 30 years it deserves a rest and I deserve a
better instrument.

The only decision left is to pick a brand and decide whether to go
wireless or wired on the sensors. I like the instant update that wired
sensors give but I am also concerned that if I go wired perhaps I will
be letting myself in for more of the same problems I currently have.

Thanks to all who offered suggestions. I did try the AC coupling as
suggested by connecting a large capacitor in series between the
photosensor and transistor. That worked until the capacitor built up a
charge and then it failed to pass the pulse. I also tried putting a
resistor to ground on the sensor side but could not find a value that
kept the capacitor from fully charging without killing the pulse
completely. I could have investigated the Schmitt trigger or looked for
a better way to AC couple but in truth, I shouldn't have to. It worked
before in the current configuration for many years so obviously
something has changed and altering the circuit shouldn't have to be the
cure. As I said, I have been looking for an excuse to treat myself to
an upgrade with some new features and to rid myself of the
static/lightning problem and think I have found it.

Thanks again to everyone for their assistance and suggestions.
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
<snip>

I have an ID-4001 and I'm running into a similar problem. Mine, however
is with the direction giving random readings. In normal operation, say
the wind is from the southeast. All of a sudden, the indicator will
jump to northwest. It doesn't "turn" to the northwest, it will all of a
sudden "jump" there. I've tried to get it to do it by manually
rotating the wind vane, but just can't seem to re-create the problem.

I'm kind of thinking that the problem may be in the 8-wire cable. I'm
still using the original cable that came with the kit. Having wire
outside for that many years, maybe it's corroding and not allowing the
full 5 volts through.

Just a thought. Anyone care to comment?

Since it's not a constant problem, I haven't set aside time to check
voltages.

It might very well be the wire but in my experience the problem with
erroneous wind direction indications has always been the failure of one
the photosensors or LEDs due to a static discharge or a nearby lightning
strike. The LEDs are wired in series so that if one goes they all do
not work and wind speed goes to zero and the wind consistently indicates
only one direction which I believe is SE. This does not appear to be
the case for you so I would suspect one of the photosensors - or a bad
wire as you suggest. The wind direction indication is the only
function that does not go through the CPU so you can rule that out as a
possible problem.

Before replacing the wire, I might have someone slowly spin the
weathervane around full circle several times while you note exactly
which of the direction indicator LEDs light and in what order. I would
then examine the Gray code listing in table 5-3 on page 21 of the
Operations manual and see if you can see a pattern that would point to a
particular failed photosensor. If not a photosensor it might also point
to which of the wires is the problem.

Good luck.
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
It might very well be the wire but in my experience the problem with
erroneous wind direction indications has always been the failure of one
the photosensors or LEDs due to a static discharge or a nearby lightning
strike. The LEDs are wired in series so that if one goes they all do
not work and wind speed goes to zero and the wind consistently indicates
only one direction which I believe is SE. This does not appear to be
the case for you so I would suspect one of the photosensors - or a bad
wire as you suggest. The wind direction indication is the only
function that does not go through the CPU so you can rule that out as a
possible problem.

Before replacing the wire, I might have someone slowly spin the
weathervane around full circle several times while you note exactly
which of the direction indicator LEDs light and in what order. I would
then examine the Gray code listing in table 5-3 on page 21 of the
Operations manual and see if you can see a pattern that would point to a
particular failed photosensor. If not a photosensor it might also point
to which of the wires is the problem.

Good luck.

My apologies. I missed in the first reading that you had already tried
spinning the weathervane manually and that it was intermittent. The
only thing I can think of in that case is to check the wires on the
bottom of the display where the sensor connects to the station. I have
found those flex over time and the small individual strands of wire that
make up the complete wire break one by one where they are soldered to
the connector. Perhaps one connection is now intermittent. I have also
found that a connector can shift and touch an adjacent connector if the
screw is not really tight. There are a lot of wires under there and it
is easy for one to touch another if things are not exactly right.
 
E

Elephant

Jan 1, 1970
0
My apologies. I missed in the first reading that you had already tried
spinning the weathervane manually and that it was intermittent. The
only thing I can think of in that case is to check the wires on the
bottom of the display where the sensor connects to the station. I have
found those flex over time and the small individual strands of wire that
make up the complete wire break one by one where they are soldered to
the connector. Perhaps one connection is now intermittent. I have also
found that a connector can shift and touch an adjacent connector if the
screw is not really tight. There are a lot of wires under there and it
is easy for one to touch another if things are not exactly right.


Thanks for that tip. I will check all the connections on the display
unit.

I really would hate to have to put the ID4001 to rest and get one of the
new units on the market. For one, I love the nice bright display. All
of the new stuff has LCD's that you can't see from across the room. And
I don't like the idea of waiting 7 to 15 seconds for an update on the
wireless sensors.

One other quick question. Does your wind vane move around alot? Let
me explain. During a breezy period, mine moves around as though
someone is spinning it with their hand. It doesn't hold in the
direction the wind is blowing from. I realize that there will be some
veriation for instance if the wind is from the SW, the display will vary
between south and west, but mine actually spins all the way around!
This isn't anything electrical and I can go outside and watch it sping
around like the anemometer! I've balanced it like the instruction
manual says, so that's not the problem. It's just annoying to see it
spinning like there is a tornado on top of me:)

It's not all the time, but during breezy conditions, it seems to do it
more than I think it should. Any suggestions?
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
I really would hate to have to put the ID4001 to rest and get one of the
new units on the market. For one, I love the nice bright display. All
of the new stuff has LCD's that you can't see from across the room. And
I don't like the idea of waiting 7 to 15 seconds for an update on the
wireless sensors.

I agree with you 100%. Both those features, a display readable from
across the room even with the lights off and wired sensors for rapid
updates, would be my ideal on any replacement although I could weaken on
the wired sensors. I cannot count the number of times the wind sensor
has been up and down to replace parts because of nearby lightning
strikes or static discharges. This is despite my trying two different
locations and grounding as much as I can. Have you had any trouble from
static and lightning?

I am currently looking a Peete Brothers The Weather Picture since it has
large LEDs that can be easily seen, but I am still concerned about the
wired sensors. They say their unit is "bullet proof" for static
discharge but they also say not warranted against lightning. I am not
sure if that means only a direct hit, which I can understand, or if it
includes any impulse damage as well.

One other quick question. Does your wind vane move around alot? Let
me explain. During a breezy period, mine moves around as though
someone is spinning it with their hand. It doesn't hold in the
direction the wind is blowing from. I realize that there will be some
veriation for instance if the wind is from the SW, the display will vary
between south and west, but mine actually spins all the way around!
This isn't anything electrical and I can go outside and watch it sping
around like the anemometer! I've balanced it like the instruction
manual says, so that's not the problem. It's just annoying to see it
spinning like there is a tornado on top of me:)

It's not all the time, but during breezy conditions, it seems to do it
more than I think it should. Any suggestions?


Mine also spins like that, particularly under light wind conditions. I
think in my case it is because it is only about 20 feet off the ground
and there are objects (trees and shrubs) nearby including the house to
the WNW about 70 feet way. I think the wind is affected by nearby
objects that tend to make it change direction as it goes around them.
When I had the wind sensors mounted on the roof of my two story house
about 15 feet up it was not as bad but it was still not perfect due to
nearby trees.

I think the bottom line is that if the weather vane is spinning it is
because the wind is changing direction and about the only thing you can
do is try to have it away from as many objects as you can. The good
news is that it is sensitive to even light winds. Mine will change
direction even when there not sufficient wind to spin the cups.
 
S

Steve

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a problem with my Heathkit ID-4001 Weather Station. The wind
speed works fine if there is any wind but when there is a calm wind
condition it occasionally starts giving erratic wind speeds. If it
should be reading zero speed, it reads zero and then jumps to a higher
wind speed, such as 32 and then back down to zero or up to 41. There
doesn't seem to be any pattern that I can discern. The actual wind
speed values tend to be random and when they occur appears to be random.
It can go for some time sitting at zero and then give an erroneous
reading or several erroneous readings in quick succession and then set
at zero for an another period of time. As soon the wind picks up it
appears to read the wind speed flawlessly.

Any ideas on what the problem might be or what to check for?

Thanks.

Just a few comments and a question. I also have a ID-4001 thats been running
flawlessly for the past 30?? or so years. I have no problems with the speed or
direction electronics but the outdoor plastic is starting to disintigrate. Last winter I
lost one wind cup. I did have to replace the outdoor multistrand cable when the insulation
crumbled. A shorting cable may be part of your problem. At one point in the distant past
I had the 4001 hooked up to a H8 for data loging. I was an avid kit builder back then.
Many T storms have passed over the 4001 and never caused any problems. I have looked
for a replacement wind cup and there is none to be found. One company still markets a
5001 (lcd) using the same boom and sensors but they seem to be vaporware. So my question
is, anyone know where I can get a replacement or something that I can fit in place. Also
tried Data Professionals http://www.d8apro.com/heath1.htm none left in stock.

Steve
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
Just a few comments and a question. I also have a ID-4001 thats been
running flawlessly for the past 30?? or so years. I have no problems
with the speed or direction electronics but the outdoor plastic is
starting to disintigrate. Last winter I lost one wind cup.

It looks like each person has a different problem. I suppose I should
knock on wood but my plastic parts seem to be holding up fine. I would
offer you my wind cups but I have not completely given up hope on fixing
mine down the road. I might perhaps tinker with the wind speed problem
in the future even though I have taken the 4001 off line for the moment
and am looking into a different station. I really do like LED display
over todays LCD displays.
I did have to replace the outdoor multistrand cable when the insulation
crumbled. A shorting cable may be part of your problem.

The cable seems fine but I will investigate further. It has been buried
for several years between the house and the sensors after I moved the
sensors off the roof - and it is the original cable. I took down the
boom yesterday and cut the wire in anticipation of a new station but I
left about 10 feet of wire attached so I could test it further inside if
I felt the urge. I guess in my heart of hearts, I really hate to see it
go despite its headaches.
At one point in the distant past I had the 4001 hooked up to a H8 for
data loging. I was an avid kit builder back then.
Many T storms have passed over the 4001 and never caused any problems.

That I just don't understand. I have replaced the LEDs and photosensors
more times than I can remember and the CPU a couple of times (the last
one from d8apro.com). I haven't lost a CPU since I moved the sensors
off the roof and mounted them on a cast iron pipe set in cement covered
by a couple of feet of soil so the boom is directly grounded, but I
still have lost components in the wind sensors. To be honest I think
the CPU has not been damaged only because I take it off line when ever
it even looks like there might be Ts within 50 miles and not because of
anything I did to make the installation better.
for a replacement wind cup and there is none to be found. One company
still markets a 5001 (lcd) using the same boom and sensors but they
seem to be vaporware.

I did look at a site that offered to take a 4001 in trade for a 5001 but
when you look for prices they say they are in the middle of a move and
to check back later. As you say - vaporware.
So my question is, anyone know where I can get a replacement or s
something that I can fit in place.

Not off the top of my head but I will keep that in mind and if I ever
decide I am never going to try to fix mine, I will post something here
letting you know my wind cups are available.
Also tried Data Professionals http://www.d8apro.com/heath1.htm none
left in stock.

Don is really great to work with and very helpful. I only wish the
programming in his CPUs more closely matched the programming in the
original Mostek CPU. I really liked the way the original CPU worked
over the new one.
 
E

Elephant

Jan 1, 1970
0
This is despite my trying two different
locations and grounding as much as I can. Have you had any trouble from
static and lightning?

Have never had any trouble with lightning or static discharge. Lived in
Nebraska for many years, and never a problem in the spring. Now, I live
in Arizona, so thunderstorms are few and far between.

I am currently looking a Peete Brothers The Weather Picture since it has

I checked out the Peet Brothers web site. Don't care for the indoor
unit. The "additional" display looks nice, but not worth the extra $400


Mine also spins like that, particularly under light wind conditions. I
think in my case it is because it is only about 20 feet off the ground
and there are objects (trees and shrubs) nearby including the house to
the WNW about 70 feet way.
The good
news is that it is sensitive to even light winds. Mine will change
direction even when there not sufficient wind to spin the cups.


Guess I'll just have to put up with those minor problems. I love the
ID4001 too much to chuck it for those. I've added the Heathkit
humidity "kit" as an add on. Doesn't fit in the current display, but
still looks nice sitting next to the ID4001. For a rain guage, I
bought a wireless guage at Walmart. It's made by Accurite. The display
isn't led, but it's still a good size display and works quite well.
Batteries last almost a year before having to replace them.

One quick note: I remember living in Nebraska and watched as the wind
chill reading on the ID4001 hit 92 below zero!!!!!!! Will never forget
that reading as long as I live. Too bad I couldn't keep it in the
memory. Now, in Phoenix, I don't get to use the wind chill reading.
All I ever see is the temperature climb up and up the 115. :)
 
E

Elephant

Jan 1, 1970
0
Just a few comments and a question. I also have a ID-4001 thats been running
flawlessly for the past 30?? or so years. I have no problems with the speed or
direction electronics but the outdoor plastic is starting to disintigrate. Last winter I
lost one wind cup. I have looked
for a replacement wind cup and there is none to be found. One company still markets a
5001 (lcd) using the same boom and sensors but they seem to be vaporware. So my question
is, anyone know where I can get a replacement or something that I can fit in place. Also
tried Data Professionals http://www.d8apro.com/heath1.htm none left in stock.

Steve


Hi Steve, I was going to try to replace my CPU with the one from
d8apro.com, but sounds like there are flaws in it. I hope my CPU never
goes out!

Sorry to hear that you lost one of the cups. Guess I'm luck. Even
with the extreme heat in Arizona, my cups seem to be holding up. I did
loose the plastic end on my wind vane a few years back and ended up
fabricating one on my own from a piece of aluminum. Painted it white
and doesn't look too bad. You might want to try to see if you can
fabricate ones for yourself. This web site might give you some ideas.
http://www.otherpower.com/anemometer.html

Other than that, watch on e-bay. I've seen some parts being sold on
there as replacements. Good luck.
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
I checked out the Peet Brothers web site. Don't care for the indoor
unit. The "additional" display looks nice, but not worth the extra $400

I concur. I have moved on from Peete Brothers. After looking at prices
and the reviews at eHam.com I am now favoring the Davis Vantage Pro2
The only down side that I can see is that the display is so small after
using the ID-4001. I guess it is always about compromises (sigh). The
good news is that I think if I do a little looking around I can find the
Pro2 at a substantial discount. Based on that I think I can buy the
complete station with a second console for less money than the Peete
Brothers unit with the Weather Picture. The result would be a more
reliable unit (based on many eHam reviews) and a display in more than
one location in the same room or in different rooms. Perhaps one in the
living room and one in my den near the computer. Nothing is ever
perfect but that should help soothe not having a super large display.

At least those are my current thoughts. As the say, "Indecision is the
key to flexibility" so until I place the order, I still can consider my
options. I would however like to have it installed before December. I
am not a big fan of any outside work here in northern New England during
the winter months.
 
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