Wind/Solar Electrics ???

[RST Engineering]

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim

 

[Jim Thompson]

"Hefty" solar panels don't come for cheap.

Do you have regular enough winds to use for battery recharging?

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim

...Jim Thompson

 

[Dave Stadt]

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim

Seems running a generator would be simpler and cheaper.

 

[RST Engineering]

message

"Hefty" solar panels don't come for cheap.

That's true, but they are about half the price that they were about ten
years ago. That said, a small Honda generator when you really need a couple
of kW and a few watts of solar panel to keep the aircraft battery batting
and the keepalives on the radios keeping may be the hybrid way to go.

Do you have regular enough winds to use for battery recharging?

Well, we are at 3000' on the west slope of the Sierra on the top of a small
hill with nothing (literally) between us and Japan except for a wire fence,
and it's down {;-) We get some decent winds, but nothing you can count on.
Today, for example, the peak wind was somewhere around 7 knots and the
average somewhere around 3 or 4 knots. Then again, last week we had a
howler come through here at 40 knots and last for a day. Nothing
dependable.

Jim

 

[RST Engineering]

With a small solar panel to keep the continuous load going, not a bad way to
go.

Jim

 

[Matt Whiting]

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.

I have no experience with solar so I can't comment. However, I'm
wondering if you have considered a small gas or diesel powered
generator? It would likely be cheaper initially and less maintance over
time, especially if you don't need the power all of the time.

Matt

 

[Newps]

I use Trojan T-105 6 volt batteries in my 5th wheel. They are far and
away better than any automotive or deep cycle 12 volt battery for even
several times the price. A friend not far from here has a solar setup
like you are contemplating at his hangar. I also have a solar panel on
my camper. Here's a couple of links to get you started. You don't have
to worry about hail, until it comes down the size of softballs they are
impervious to it. I don't know what problems you mean with paralleling
batteries but as long as all the batteries are the same they charge just
fine. Just make sure you have a charge controller. Mine is a 7 amp
because I only have a 75 watt panel. A few hundred watts and about six
6 volt batteries would take care of you.



http://www.trojan-battery.com/

http://www.solar-electric.com/

 

[Dave Stadt]

The generator can provide battery charging capability should the sun or wind
let you down.

 

[Charlie Edmondson]

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim

First, check on that price again. One thing I learned a while back is,
that while that is THEIR price, if you go to an electrical contractor
and get a quote for the same work for less, they have to match it! You
can save big bucks that way. The only part they HAVE to do is mount and
connect the meter. All the rest you can get your own electrician for.

If you want to go solar, make a single closet like room, with venting
directly outside. Don't use truck batteries, you need deep cycle types.
You still end up doing all the wiring from hangar to hangar, and the
solar cells and batteries aren't cheap. Neither is the inverter. There
might not be as much of a diffence as you would like.

Charlie

 

[Martin Riddle]

It could be done, but you'll spend about $8-9 a watt with no rebates cause your not grid connected.

Vist the homepower news groups. Or www.homepower.com

You'll need a generator backup, diesel preferred.

Calculations for Autonomy, days with out sun.

Calculations for collector plate angle, for winter months.

Possibly a licensed electrician to install. Depends on local codes.

All systems are only %70-74 of their actual panel ratings, So keep this in mind. (its an efficiency thing)

And probably a large 1000's of amp hours battery bank to meet the autonomy specs.
Assuming 8hrs for lighting, 2K @ 8hrs (24v) is 666AH, usually Autonomy is 4-5 days. So your looking at 2000-3000 of AH battery
capacity. (no cheep truck deep cycles here) Plus you'll need to charge them with the PV's ;D.



Cheers

 

[Vaughn]

Think about a modest solar system for lighting only and a generator for the
rest. I have 100 watts of solar panels and a small charge controller that
easily runs two 60 watt-equivalent compact fluorescent lamps that have been
lighting up my yard every night for the last several years. The battery bank
for that little solar system doubles as the starting battery for my generator.
One of those pad-mounted generators you see at Home Depot could easily handle
the machine shop tools and would probably only see a few hours of use per month.

To get an idea of solar prices, try here: http://www.sunelec.com/index.html

Vaughn

 

[Mike Rapoport]

The economics still aren't there for solar in most situations unless PG&E
has a high minimium monthly bill. The place to same money here in Sandpoint
is on sewer and water. The connection fees are high and the minimium bill
is about $40. One well and one leach field could serve numerous hangers.

Mike
MU-2

 

[Mike Rapoport]

Jim,

Check out http://www.realgoods.com/renew/index.cfm They have a store near
you and also catalog that is very informative on sustainable, off-grid
living and systems.

Mike
MU-2

 

[Don Tuite]

Jim,

Check out http://www.realgoods.com/renew/index.cfm They have a store near
you and also catalog that is very informative on sustainable, off-grid
living and systems.

I've had my reservations about RG ever since they endorsed those
piezoelectric washing-machine tablets.

More than anything though, CE/UL-approved grid-connect inverters (ok
AND EU subsidies, especially in Germany) are helping to increase cell
and panel manufacturing capacity. Which is essential to driving down
cost. I think off-the-grid is fine for hangars and folks in Idaho
with acres and acres of acres, but grid-connect is where the volume
is.

Don

 

[Nathan Young]

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

Comments appreciated.

Clever idea. Good luck with it.

Are the hangar doors electric? If so - make sure you have enough
surge current capability to get the motor started. I have a 120V /
1850W generator and it did not have enough juice to raise the door
during a power outage.

-Nathan

 

[Ross Richardson]

Hey Jim,

Try looking through this.

http://www.homepower.com/

My son has provide me some literature on renewable energy and I am
convinced with some up front spending you can survive anywere without
the power grid. You may need a 5KW generator at time when the wind,
solar, etc give out.

 

[RST Engineering]

The hangar doors have the Armstrong opening/closing mechanism.

Jim

 

[Denny]

Hey Jim,
Check the cruising boat and trawler chat groups... THey have off the
grid down to a science..
Solar cells to keep your battery set charged and a generator for surge
loads... Better yet, is a DC alternator on your truck for charging the
batteries adn doing welding on the side.. see here
http://www.ceniehoff.com/products/altDisplay.asp?searchtype=1&volt=&=&make_name=N1602-1&keyword=

denny

 

[Michelle P]

Jim,
Try alt.energy.homepower or alt.solar.photovoltaic. Lots of experts there.
Michelle

 

[[email protected]]

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

yes, thats when solar pv starts to look good.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter?
It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

There are 2 main invertor options, sine or modified sine, which is IRL
rectangular wave. IIRC, iron fl ballasts and motors can overheat on
MSW, so all your apps ideally want sine. However MSW is much cheaper,
and there are workarounds. Fl lights can be run at just slightly
reduced power, or heatsinks added to the ballasts, etc. Electronic
ballast lights would run happily on 150v dc. Motor driven tools would
be fine as is unless youre running them to where they already get
seriously hot, ie heavy use. There are ways round it if it proves to be
an issue.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

ok, first with those powers it would make more sense to run your
battery back at apx 150v (assuming you want 110v ac) and use a simple
chopper to produce the ac. Your output will then have unregulated
V_peak and regulated constant rms. That should work for all your loads.

You should add a parallel diode across each battery cell, so that one
cell going down has little effect on system performance, and enables
everything to continue running. Ditto with the panels, there its
particularly important to have a diode across every panel when youre
running them at HT.

This avoids parallelling batteries (not that thats needed anyway), plus
reduces cost of invertor and wiring. Also it means you can supply 150v
dc to mains CFL bulbs, electronic ballasted fl lights, and anything
else that rectifies the mains, again cutting down on system cost and
improving reliability. Use a different plug/socket type for the dc
supply.

One way to shave 10-20% off power consumption would be to up your
supply frequency slightly, this would work nicely with magentic ballast
lights and brushed motors, but not induction motors. FWIW brushed
motors can run on dc anyway - but not @ 150v.


Solar pv is cheaper than wind, and has less significantly issues, so
I'd stick to solar.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end,

Battery case is vented to the outside.

sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim

alt.solar.photovoltaic is the place to go.

Also dont overlook simple ways to cut cost. A minimal cost reflector
outside a window can be used to increase daylight levels, and delay
lighting dwitch on until later in the day, thus reducing system cost.
And of course a switchbank for your lighting will enable you to use the
lights only where theyre wanted at the time. No sense lighting the
whole place up bright when youre only working in one area.

And dont forget batteries dont last forever, you need to account for
future replacement. Beating your PG&E costs should not be difficult, as
long as its designed competently.


NT