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Will IR Illuminator work with any CCD Camera?

B

Brian

Jan 1, 1970
0
Charles Sullivan wrote:
....
As I understand it, the reason for including an IR filter is that the
focal planes for IR and visible light are different enough that there's
a noticeable blur in the image if both sources are present, as in
sunlight.

There is a more serious problem, and that is the fact that silicon is
transmissive in the near infrared (it is opaque in the visible). That
means that the NIR radiation falling on one pixel will travel through
the detector material and light up adjacent pixels, degrading the MTF.
There is nothing a lens can do to fix that, you just have to filter it
out.

Brian
Ancient and Modern Optics
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't know to what extent this can be corrected by an achromatic
lens as is used to correct for chromatic aberation on quality visible
light cameras.

Probably not al all.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
 
L

Louis Boyd

Jan 1, 1970
0
Telephoto assemblies made of mirrors only such as Cassegrain designs
have no color aberrations and work well with silicon CCDs over their
full wavelength range for long focal lengths. Schmidt Cassegrain,
Maksutov, and Ritchie Chretien designs have with weak corrector lenses
little chromatic aberrations. Very fast (F/1.0) catadioptric designs
exist with wide spectral range and flat fields are used for night vision
devices. There are also fast zoom lenses (non mirror) specifically
designed to have good correction from 400 to 950 nm for night
surveillance cameras.
 
D

Dave Martindale

Jan 1, 1970
0
Brian said:
Charles Sullivan wrote:
...

There is a more serious problem, and that is the fact that silicon is
transmissive in the near infrared (it is opaque in the visible). That
means that the NIR radiation falling on one pixel will travel through
the detector material and light up adjacent pixels, degrading the MTF.
There is nothing a lens can do to fix that, you just have to filter it
out.

On top of all that, if the Bayer filter matrix uses organic dye filters
(not multilayer interference filters), they are probably transparent to
IR. That means that IR light passes through red, green, *and* blue
filters, and looks like white light to the sensor. This desaturates all
of the colours in the image. Blocking IR is necessary to avoid this.

If the camera did use interference filters (I don't know if any Bayer
matrix filters are actually done this way), the IR would likely pass
through only the red filter, and look like excess red light. This still
messes up colour reproduction, because objects look redder to the camera
than they do to the eye under IR-rich illumination.

Dave
 
M

MassiveProng

Jan 1, 1970
0
I want to setup some night surveillance cameras. I notice that some
CCD night cameras have the IR LEDS right on the camera. Do these
cameras have anything special about them that makes them work well with
IR illumination (do they have circuitry to switch to B/W etc).

IR illumination night vision cameras allow you to see objects the
illumination is cast on at night without being spotted yourself
(UNLESS IR IS USED by the other side as well)

IR imagery cameras observe the natural emissions from any object and
do not need or gain anything from IR illumination.

One is reflected IR light from surfaces which allow you to delineate
them from the reflections. The other is a quantitative thermal image
composed from the levels of IR all the objects in view emit on their
own.

The
reason I ask is that I would prefer to use standard CCD cameras and a
separate IR illuminator, and am wondering if they will work together
properly. Thanks.

CCDs that are not specifically for IR must be worked on to get
there. The baseline noise is higher so they typically like being
chilled. They also utilize a germanium or other IR only transmissive
window in them.

Regular cameras that claim to see in IR usually are pretty poor
examples of it.
 
M

MassiveProng

Jan 1, 1970
0
Unless...

Snipped top posted CRAP.

Top posting TOFU Usenet idiot.

Also, Usenet line lengths should be limited BY THE POSTER at 74
characters or less.

Bone up on the forums you invade. It matters not what you may or
may not know about a subject if you refuse to respect the conventions
of the forum.

This ain't your e-mail, and I would care if you claimed to have been
posting for years. You are still an utter dipshit if you can't learn
and follow conventions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
Oops. There's nothing left on which to comment.
[top posted for your reading pleasure]
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
IR illumination night vision cameras allow you to see objects the
illumination is cast on at night without being spotted yourself
(UNLESS IR IS USED by the other side as well)

IR imagery cameras observe the natural emissions from any object and
do not need or gain anything from IR illumination.

One is reflected IR light from surfaces which allow you to delineate
them from the reflections. The other is a quantitative thermal image
composed from the levels of IR all the objects in view emit on their
own.

I just want to mention that these two different IR camera types work
from very different IR wavelength ranges and use different sensors.

Cameras that work from IR illumination, with at most very few exceptions
(I can't name any), work from infrared wavelengths generally in the IR-A
range, which is .7 to 1.5 micrometers.
For that matter, most of such work with illuminators is done with a
narrower range, since silicon IR photodetectors don't do well with
wavelengths longer than about 1.2 or so micrometers, and wavelengths a bit
longer than .7 micrometer (up to .82 easily, maybe .9 or so) are visible
enough for one to see the light source in the dark.

As for thermal IR - keep in mind that a 3000 K halogen lamp filament has
peak close to 1 micrometer and at .4 micrometer (borderline violet-UV)
output is down to about 7% of peak. At 300 nm output is close to or a
little over 1% of peak.
Keep in mind that this translates to 300 Kelvin radiation peaking close
to 10 micrometers, 7% of peak at 4 micrometers, and 1% of peak at or
hardly below 3 micrometers. I have a non-contact thermometer and IIRC
it works from the 7-14 micrometer range according to its documentation.

Please know that "room temperature thermal IR" is generally absorbed by
glass, water and most other transparent objects. A non-contact IR
thermometer will not see through these objects but read the temperature of
these objects.

Further digressing, many materials that absorb 10 micrometer ballpark
IR, even if transparent in the visible, are transparent at microwave and
radio frequencies. IIRC, Hertz managed some determination of an index of
refraction of some material for radio waves from some kind of spark
transmiter (presumably of frequency high enough to do this with) before
Tesla and Marconi, before there was electronics.
There are some materials with more limited rages of failing to be
transparent to medium/long IR wavelengths. What comes to my mind now are
some halides (such as potassium chloride - hygroscopic!) and (probably not
all) non-metallic elements and non-metallic isotropes of elements in the 4
and 5 column of the periodic table (where 3-8 are the last 6 and 1,2 are
the first 2), in periods/rows at least 4. Germanium and silicon come to
my mind as being mentioned as transparent to "mid-IR"/"far-IR", and
probably not transparent to all wavelengths in these ranges.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Snipped top posted CRAP.

Top posting TOFU Usenet idiot.

Also, Usenet line lengths should be limited BY THE POSTER at 74
characters or less.

Bone up on the forums you invade.

(I snip after that to edit for space)

So now it appears to me that someone that has drawn a lot of complaints,
and often done so badly as used derogatory words employed mainly by people
of age 9-15, and who has changed handles here a few times in the past
decade, just got a new one.

In my experience, the biggest complainers of top posting tend to be
those trying to establish themselves as not the very bottom of lower
levels of the heap.

Do I need to mention past handles and some nicknames for one of them for
what I think profiles well as authoring
<[email protected]>?

I would advise getting another new handle, and not peck on others in
ways done in lower levels of some pecking order. Peck on 2nd or 3rd from
bottom - if you succeed, that gets you 3rd-4th from bottom. (And I say
this at my risk of being pecked on by 5th-from-bottom and attempts from
steps lower as opposed to avoiding some pecking order that the lowlifes
all too often need to establish).

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
I

I use solid wire

Jan 1, 1970
0
You are a real piece of work. I bet your eyes are crosseyed from all
that cut and paste, huh?

To anyone reading this, dismiss this idiot's composition on cameras.
If you want to know which camera to use post on ASA or cctvfourm.com.







Cameras that work from IR illumination, with at most very few exceptions
(I can't name any), work from infrared wavelengths generally in the IR-A
range, which is .7 to 1.5 micrometers.
For that matter, most of such work with illuminators is done with a
narrower range, since silicon IR photodetectors don't do well with
wavelengths longer than about 1.2 or so micrometers, and wavelengths a bit
longer than .7 micrometer (up to .82 easily, maybe .9 or so) are visible
enough for one to see the light source in the dark.

As for thermal IR - keep in mind that a 3000 K halogen lamp filament has
peak close to 1 micrometer and at .4 micrometer (borderline violet-UV)
output is down to about 7% of peak. At 300 nm output is close to or a
little over 1% of peak.
Keep in mind that this translates to 300 Kelvin radiation peaking close
to 10 micrometers, 7% of peak at 4 micrometers, and 1% of peak at or
hardly below 3 micrometers. I have a non-contact thermometer and IIRC
it works from the 7-14 micrometer range according to its documentation.

Please know that "room temperature thermal IR" is generally absorbed by
glass, water and most other transparent objects. A non-contact IR
thermometer will not see through these objects but read the temperature of
these objects.

Further digressing, many materials that absorb 10 micrometer ballpark
IR, even if transparent in the visible, are transparent at microwave and
radio frequencies. IIRC, Hertz managed some determination of an index of
refraction of some material for radio waves from some kind of spark
transmiter (presumably of frequency high enough to do this with) before
Tesla and Marconi, before there was electronics.
There are some materials with more limited rages of failing to be
transparent to medium/long IR wavelengths. What comes to my mind now are
some halides (such as potassium chloride - hygroscopic!) and (probably not
all) non-metallic elements and non-metallic isotropes of elements in the 4
and 5 column of the periodic table (where 3-8 are the last 6 and 1,2 are
the first 2), in periods/rows at least 4. Germanium and silicon come to
my mind as being mentioned as transparent to "mid-IR"/"far-IR", and
probably not transparent to all wavelengths in these ranges.
--
"As we know, there are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns.
That is to say we know there are some things
We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know we don't know."

Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing - (Donald Rumsfeld)
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just want to mention that these
two different IR camera types work
from very different IR wavelength
ranges and use different sensors...

Since the OP is clearly interested in CCTV surveillance cameras, it is highly unlikely that he needs information on thermal imaging
cameras. I doubt he'll be helped further along the path to CCTV enlightenment by a lengthy dissertation on IR absorption and more
than the typical home audio user needs a course in waveform propagation.

Someone else already noted that IR illuminators will work with any CCTV camera that doesn't have an IR filter.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
 
J

John McWilliams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
Since the OP is clearly interested in CCTV surveillance cameras, it is highly unlikely that he needs information on thermal imaging
cameras. I doubt he'll be helped further along the path to CCTV enlightenment by a lengthy dissertation on IR absorption and more
than the typical home audio user needs a course in waveform propagation.

Someone else already noted that IR illuminators will work with any CCTV camera that doesn't have an IR filter.

sdl
 
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