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Why are there countless attempts to make magnets power generators..

Woo-Woo Discussion in 'Twilight Zone' started by Moha99, Apr 17, 2012.

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  1. Moha99

    Moha99

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    Why?!

    I mean seriously I've been looking around magnets and studying about them then go on youtube to find some very amazing demonstrations.

    Then stumble upon other videos of someone making a "motor" or "generator" powered by magnets? What supports that idea? I mean so far the logic of a the matter is you can't spin a roter with multiple Neo. magnets or if you can it will eventually stop due to loss(multiple ones) and due to polarity issues from magnets...

    I keep finding theses videos I understand people are attempting to make "energy efficient machines" But magnets? Im lost with this idea does anyone has an input to this?

    I mean possibly their could be an increase of something or supper decrease of something by using the force of a magnets... But generators? motors? :confused:
     
  2. Harald Kapp

    Harald Kapp Moderator Moderator

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    A generator operates by moving a wire (or coil) within a magnetic field.
    A motor operates by sending current through a wire (or coil) that is within a magnetic field.
    In both cases the magentic field has to come from some source. Simply said: the stornger the magnetic field, the more power. And the stronger the magents, the smaller the motor/generator can be.

    Could you be more specific about what you don't understand?

    Harald
     
  3. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    There are always people trying to separate fools and their money.

    Sometimes people are misguided and think they've almost got an "over unity" device.

    But "almost" doesn't count. Until to reach or exceed 100% efficiency you're in the realm of normal physics. And you can get closer and closer, but mean old Mr. Thermodynamics is never going to let you sneak past.
     
  4. Moha99

    Moha99

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    Nov 18, 2011
    I'm complaining not asking how things work.
    Just saying so many people are trying to do stupid things.
     
  5. Moha99

    Moha99

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    Nov 18, 2011
    Are there ay useful ways to use the repel force of a magnet anyways? In a rotating sphere for example? Could a magnet be useful to increase speed generally by repelling? In these videos I look at a specific model that is looking specifically at the magnets for example this video here. Ignore the title and everything just look at the magnets if I were for example to do the same design on a bicycle wheel where I'm adding mechanical energy for it to move with a few strong magnets placed on good areas could you think they'd give a boost? Generally saying? Is their a good use of repelling force to increase speed?
     
  6. KrisBlueNZ

    KrisBlueNZ Sadly passed away in 2015

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    Nov 28, 2011
    I think perhaps the fact that magnets seem to be "magical", or at least inexplicable, encourages people to think (a) that magnets can do things that seem to be impossible, and/or (b) that gullible folks are more likely to believe their claims of perpetual motion, >100% efficiency, and so on, if magnets are involved, for the same reason.
    As (*steve*) has already pointed out, if there was any reality to their claims, they would be working on top secret projects with NASA and the government, not trying to win investors using dodgy demonstrations on YouTube.
     
  7. Moha99

    Moha99

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    Nov 18, 2011
    I understand that perfectly but it puzzles me why they keep doing the same thing over and over again... I guess why they fail to reach a successful point is they don't really understand what their working with. Before coming into this forums I thought its possibile because my lack of understanding but I came here discussed with countless members on many things and got to a point of understanding.

    Anyways my goal now since this kinda interests me lately are magnetic repel force can it enhance a certain thing or not or maybe the other way. One man proves the use of supermagnets for brakes which is a pretty good idea seen here.
    Maybe if i can slow something by using magnets I could speed it up :D?
     
  8. KrisBlueNZ

    KrisBlueNZ Sadly passed away in 2015

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    I think the trick is that magnetic attraction and repulsion seem, at first glance, to contain some kind of energy source, and it seems like it should be possible to extract that energy. But as you say, a bit of education soon makes it clear that this is an illusion.
    Everyone who doesn't understand this is likely to start from the same point, and become obsessed with trying to extract this magical energy.
    I also think that some of these snake oil chemists actually do understand that they can't get energy from magnets, but realise that many other people don't, and are ripe for fleecing, if the appropriate pseudo-scientific bamboozling is used.
     
  9. Moha99

    Moha99

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    Nov 18, 2011
    yea... sadly we have a lot of people who see this as magic
     
  10. Moha99

    Moha99

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    Nov 18, 2011
    here is a nice demonstration of what im talking about! a good example of magnetic repulsion and attraction!

    Now this is kinda fun. Is it possibile? But if it was going for example clockwise would it go counterclockwise as well? this is much fun I'd like to make on of those!

    But what I would ask is: The force that magnets generate is it a kind of energy?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  11. KrisBlueNZ

    KrisBlueNZ Sadly passed away in 2015

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    I'm afraid I can't view that video at the moment, I'm limited to dial-up speed because I've used up my monthly data allocation :-/
    Regarding magnetic attraction or repulsion as a kind of ENERGY... think of a compression or tension spring. When you squeeze a compression spring, you feel a force, like the force you feel when you push two repelling magnets together. Would you say that the spring is giving you ENERGY? The only difference that I see is that magnets operate through thin air (and even through a vacuum).
     
  12. Moha99

    Moha99

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    Nov 18, 2011
    It could be giving me energy from the force I applied to it to repel! then the push back from that forced repel pushing my hand away could be energy as well?
     
  13. Moha99

    Moha99

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    Nov 18, 2011
    [​IMG]

    Looking at this image constantly and imagining the repel force and attract.

    is this applied as a general schematic of magnetic fields?

    [​IMG]

    Interesting this truly is.
     
  14. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Watch this.

    What is the difference?

    Hint: only one wants you to believe it's not a trick.
     
  15. timothy48342

    timothy48342

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    Nov 28, 2011
    You have 2 magnets positioned so that they repel each other. (Yup, just like a spring.)

    (Keep in mind that "force" is not "energy". Remember the formula for Work? Force times Distance? W=F*D.)

    I apply a force with my hand. (That alone does nothing.)
    I apply a force with my hand and push the 2 repelling magnets closer together.
    I have added some energy.
    (The energy is stored as Potential Energy and it is the same type as a compressed spring and also the same as when a weight is lifted above the earth. "Adding Potential Energy" means they move from a lower Potential Energy state to a higher one.)
    The magnets push back at me, but I don't let them move. (This alone is just force, not energy.)
    The magnets push back at me and I allow then to move. As they move apart they give up some Potential Energy. ("They give up Potential energy" means they move from a higher Potential Energy state to a lower Potential Energy state.)
    The energy provided by the magnets as they move away is the same as they energy they gained as I pushed then together. The energy released can be used for something. It can even be used to push another pair of mangets closer together. (Without the help of my hand.) But the total energy released is never more than the total energy supplied at the start.


    Now in a different set-up, I have a bunch of magnets arranged in a circle and a spinning wheel and some more magets that are stationary. Some are pushing and some are pulling. The Potential Energy between any 2 magnets chages as the distance between them changes. (The Potential Energy between each pair might be increasing or decreasing) There is some (Rotary) Kinetic Energy of the spinning wheel. (It has mass and is moving.) It might be speeding up or slowing down.

    How do you calculate all that to prove that something special is happening or to prove that nothing special is happening???

    From watching a video? You can't prove anything. if you build it yourself, you'll know for sure. If you had the exact design, you could do a whole lot of calculas and know for sure, but that's a lot of work.

    You have a tool that will disprove every questionable device that you see. That tool you have is simply the knowledge that it can not be. It not that we don't want those devices to work, it's just that we have learned enough about the universe to know that they don't.

    No overunity device can exist. This follows directly from the Laws of Thermodynamics. Those laws were not invented, they were discovered. And so far they hold. (And I know this has been said before, but.....) "If they are ever found to be in error, it likely won't be by some guy spinning wheels in his garage."

    Feel free to watch the videos and enjoy the show. Some are lame. Some are quite entertaining. Steve posted a link to something entertaining. It's all tricks. Sometime you can figure out the trick. Sometimes you can't figure out the trick, but you still know that it is a trick, simply because it can not be.

    -timothy48342

    Oh. And those pictures with the magnets and the lines? It's a visual aid to help imagine that shape of the magnetic field. Nothing is traveling or being transfered along those lines. If you added a picture of a compass, you could draw the compass with it's north-south beam alligned with those magnetic field lines and that would not be too far off from real life.
     
    hevans1944 likes this.
  16. KrisBlueNZ

    KrisBlueNZ Sadly passed away in 2015

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    Nice explanation, timothy48342!
     
  17. Moha99

    Moha99

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    What causes it to speed is both forces right?
    Whats also causes them to slow down other than friction is that repel and attraction as well right?

    But their could be a possibility for it to spin faster if I'd postion some magnets in good postions.

    I'd like to build one of these I find them very very interesting.
     
  18. BobK

    BobK

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    Jan 5, 2010
    Any magnets you place neer a spinning wheel might give an added force to speed it up at some point in the rotation, but they will give a force to slow it down in another position. One rotation of the wheel and they all add up to zero. Read up on "conservative force". The rule is that no matter how you move a magnet around in a magnetic field or a mass around in a gravitational field, or a change in an electric field, when you come back to the initial position (which is required if you want the machine to keep operating) the field has done no net work.

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  19. Moha99

    Moha99

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    Nov 18, 2011
    an eq?
    that speed could it increase to a high high measure or just a slightly increase? or does that depend on the design?
     
  20. BobK

    BobK

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    Jan 5, 2010
    Sorry I somehow sent the message before I finished. I have edited it to complete it now.
     
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