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Who Killed the Electric Car?

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David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
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I just saw the movie Who Killed the Electric Car?:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/

Fantastic!
Everyone should watch this one.
The IMDB user comment is spot on - " This film WILL frustrate you greatly"
In fact, it's enough to make you want to cry.

Can't believe I had never heard of the movie before the other day.

Dave.
 
W

What The

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yeh i saw this on foxtel only about 1 month ago. I was amazed at GM's blind
approach to taking back the EV1 and crushing it despite having customers
willing to pay for them with no wish for support ! utterly amazing.
 
P

pom

Jan 1, 1970
0
David L. Jones a écrit :
I just saw the movie Who Killed the Electric Car?:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/

Fantastic!
Everyone should watch this one.
The IMDB user comment is spot on - " This film WILL frustrate you greatly"
In fact, it's enough to make you want to cry.

Can't believe I had never heard of the movie before the other day.

Dave.
Hello,
I wondered about its disappearance too!
But I knew some thirty years ago about the existence of electric cars :
I read Truman Capotes "other voices other rooms" or was it "The Grassharp?.
At least I hope my memory is reliable (anyway it was T. C.) He tells
about his aunts driving around with it and causing a near accident, or
so they imagined...
Peter
 
S

Simon S Aysdie

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just saw the movie Who Killed the Electric Car?:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/

Fantastic!
Everyone should watch this one.
The IMDB user comment is spot on - " This film WILL frustrate you greatly"
In fact, it's enough to make you want to cry.

Can't believe I had never heard of the movie before the other day.


The electric car killed the electric car.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
pom said:
David L. Jones a écrit :
Hello,
I wondered about its disappearance too!
But I knew some thirty years ago about the existence of electric cars :
I read Truman Capotes "other voices other rooms" or was it "The Grassharp?.
At least I hope my memory is reliable (anyway it was T. C.) He tells
about his aunts driving around with it and causing a near accident, or
so they imagined...
Peter


The concept of electric cars is a whole lot older than 30 years:

http://www.thoroughbred-cars.com/electric.htm
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
In 1999, GM planned to produce only 465 EV1 cars. There was a 1000+
unofficial waiting list in case someone changed their mind or GM
decided to increase production. When GM refused to extend the leases,
many EV-1 owners send GM lease payment checks anyway (which GM did not
deposit). When GM discontinued the EV-1 in 2003, the unofficial
waiting list was over 2000+ names. Lack of interest was never a
problem.

The first major problem was liability issues due to a fire started
while charging in the Gen 1 models. Some interesting reading from
Phil Karn:
<http://www.ka9q.net/ev/>
<http://www.ka9q.net/ev/ev1fire.html>
Leaky electrolyte from a failed capacitor in the charging port.

GM setup the EV-1 to fail. They were very surprised when it became
quite popular and very much in demand, despite the high price, lousy
GM support, and leasing requirements.
<http://www.cleanup-gm.com/>


I wonder when car manufacturers (including European ones) will finally
wake up. Sometimes I wonder whether they'll wake up at all. A brief look
at Japan might help ...
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Damon said:
http:/www.teslamotors.com

Seems to be very real.

And really expensive.

I'm waiting to see if they survive long enough to roll out their
"economy" concepts. Are Elon Musk's pockets deep enough?

http://www.commutercars.com/

Here's one that seems more practical, but the company isn't
going anywhere fast after years of publicity.

Battery technology is critical. I think a deep hybrid would
be more practical and affordable, but an all-electric with a
reliable 100 mile range would meet nearly all of my needs.


--Damon, wondering if his electric service would be adequate


There is a major stumbling block in areas like ours: Monopoly, plus
baseline usage rules the monopoly imposes. The millisecond you exceed
baseline by IIRC as little as 30% electricity becomes painfully
expensive. Anyone who dared to use their A/C in summer knows that.
Unless this changes or one can line up a sweet and most of all longterm
night-time deal there won't be a realistic future for electric cars.
 
R

Richard Henry

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just saw the movie Who Killed the Electric Car?:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/

Fantastic!
Everyone should watch this one.
The IMDB user comment is spot on - " This film WILL frustrate you greatly"
In fact, it's enough to make you want to cry.

Can't believe I had never heard of the movie before the other day.

Dave.

The EV-1 is GM's Edsel. Except that it worked and they couldn't make
enough to satisfy demand.

Beancounters killed it. And they took away a marketing advantage GM
could still be milking.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
I have a repair manual for an electric delivery vehicle made prior to
WWI. It was used for delivering milk to homes (no refridgeration) in
the pre-dawn hours. Since noise was then considered a serious
problem, electric delivery vehicles were the only option.

When I was young they didn't have noise qualms. Clippy-clop, clippy-clop
.... a horse-drawn wagon brought the milk.

Note that there are several Li-Ion conversions for Prius hybrids
effectively making them electric cars.
<http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34422/113/>
The new battery and plug-in charger extends the battery only range of
the Prius from about 7 miles to about 20 miles.


But those extra miles can cost you. This month's IEEE spectrum has a
story of a guy who spent another $32k (!) on top of the Prius price tag
to get his Li-Ion conversion. That's a bit steep.

However, gas, electric, and such will soon be out of fashion. What we
need is a nuclear powered automobile.:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon>

:)

Right now Priuses are being bought in California as if it was the best
thing since sliced bread. The big three are in for another round of
hardship. Don't know if they can afford another round ...
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Joerg,

How much of your electricity cost is actually California taxes?

A coarse peek shows about 20% fees, charges, bond measures. A.k.a taxes.

How come electricity is dramatically cheaper in AZ than CA when you
have (or should have) lots of water-generated electricity?

It probably is but since deregulation prices have skyrocketed. There is
a hockeystick effect in that up to a limit it stays a bit under 15c/kWh,
then shoots up sky-high. This stifles start-up business in the area but
politicians seem to fail to understand that.

In muni-supplied areas it's much better. I am not much for
gov-involvement but for electricity the fact is that people like us who
are served by private sector utilities must pay through the nose.
Because they gave them a monopoly and monopolies never work. With
monopolies they usually sock it to you.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Damon said:
Yeah, that's a gotcha I've been wondering about. Seems like a
smart charger would have to monitor total household current and
toe the baseline--especially during peak use hours. Result: no
quick charge when one might need it most. Hence the thought about
a deep hybrid...

Smart charging won't help. Baseline is counted over one month, no matter
when you used it. Night-reduction deals are available but then the cost
of running my biz will skyrocket because that has to be during the day.
At least it used to be that you only get the deal when you accept very
high "peak time" charges. For us that never made any sense.

Should electric vehicles start to appear in significant numbers, this
and electric grid capacity issues will pop up like red flags. The
electricity infrastructure will have to adapt, which will not be
inexpensive.

Yep. But more important are longterm utility deals. In Europe we were
able to negotiate a 10-year deal before deciding to invest in a heat
pump system. Still, only a handful of people in town did, some hesitated
because 10 years wasn't enough planning security.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
The EV-1 is GM's Edsel. Except that it worked and they couldn't make
enough to satisfy demand.

Beancounters killed it. And they took away a marketing advantage GM
could still be milking.

And the result is that they now produce a lot of Silverados 1/2-tons
that nobody wants to buy. Deju vu :-(
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Damon Hill said:
p-B11 fusion had better work, and be scalable down to that level.
Aneutronic fusion might indeed be about to happen, but the scalability
seems to be in the other direction.

Maybe a home reactor. Not likely either, at least in my lifetime.

If Charles Cagle is right, there's a good chance:

http://www.singtech.com/

I think Big Oil had a lot to do with influencing GM to abandon and sabotage
their own EV program, just as they have tried to reverse any trend toward
greater fuel economy by encouraging the glorification of horsepower, size,
weight, speed, and competitive driving.

There are a lot of options for efficient vehicles:

http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/electriccarnews.html

Paul
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael A. Terrell said:
Reality. There isn't enough generating capacity to convert to electric
cars.

It may not exist at the moment, but the switch to electric (as well as
other more efficient vehicles) must be accompanied by an overall reduction
in our total per-capita energy consumption. Even if new electric power
plants would be built, using the same fossil fuels that now power
automobiles, they would be much more efficient and cleaner than millions of
individual cars and trucks being driven in stop-and-go traffic. But the
ultimate resolution to this problem will involve people changing their
lifestyles, using more public transportation, living closer to jobs (or
telecommuting), and generally becoming a more cooperative society living
and working closely with other people, rather than isolationism, needless
competition, and broken families.

Paul
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
It may not exist at the moment, but the switch to electric (as well as
other more efficient vehicles) must be accompanied by an overall reduction
in our total per-capita energy consumption. Even if new electric power
plants would be built, using the same fossil fuels that now power
automobiles, they would be much more efficient and cleaner than millions of
individual cars and trucks being driven in stop-and-go traffic. But the
ultimate resolution to this problem will involve people changing their
lifestyles, using more public transportation, living closer to jobs (or
telecommuting), and generally becoming a more cooperative society living
and working closely with other people, rather than isolationism, needless
competition, and broken families.

Amen! Well said.
 
C

Clint Sharp

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff Liebermann said:
I have a repair manual for an electric delivery vehicle made prior to
WWI. It was used for delivering milk to homes (no refridgeration) in
the pre-dawn hours. Since noise was then considered a serious
problem, electric delivery vehicles were the only option.
Our milk and much of the doorstep delivered milk in the UK is still
delivered on electric vehicles with no refrigeration. I suspect the
design of the vehicle hasn't changed much at all in the last 50 years,
some of the 'floats' I see have registration letters that indicate they
are over 40 years old.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Heavens, Yes! Let's squash competition... and no more bellyaching...
Windows Vista for everyone ;-)

Oh, there'll be competition, has to be. But there shouldn't be a
needless one, such as umpteen shuttle services going to the airport but
none to the local industry parks around here. We can't keep on
pretending that it's ok to keep tooling around in big trucks just to go
to the grocery store. Guess what, people around here have come to their
senses about that. The number of flights leaving our local airstrip is
down to about half, when walking the dogs we see lots of trucks for
sale, lots of brand new Priuses showing up in driveways. Fact is, Toyota
has recognized the signs of the time and GM has not. They'll better get
cracking on it, and soon.

As for Vista: I was even contemplating removing the sign at the end of
the driveway because it reads "Casa de la Vista" (we have a great view
and a previous owner put it up).
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Oh, there'll be competition, has to be. But there shouldn't be a needless
one, such as umpteen shuttle services going to the airport but none to
the local industry parks around here. We can't keep on pretending that
it's ok to keep tooling around in big trucks just to go to the grocery
store. Guess what, people around here have come to their senses about
that. The number of flights leaving our local airstrip is down to about
half, when walking the dogs we see lots of trucks for sale, lots of brand
new Priuses showing up in driveways. Fact is, Toyota has recognized the
signs of the time and GM has not. They'll better get cracking on it, and
soon.

As for Vista: I was even contemplating removing the sign at the end of
the driveway because it reads "Casa de la Vista" (we have a great view
and a previous owner put it up).

The competition I was referring to is the sort that makes drivers do stupid
maneuvers to get one or two cars ahead in traffic, or resorting to
cutthroat tactics to get advancement in the business world. There is good
competition, and as long as it is fair, it results in better products and
better people. It's OK for people to engage in sports and games to
outmuscle and outsmart each other, but when they buy extra horsepower and
bigger vehicles and use them in a deadly real-life game on the roads, it
becomes a problem. That is where cooperation is really needed.

I sure don't want Vista. XP is the first OS (since maybe MSDOS6.22) that
seems to be stable and reliable. But at least there is Linux that I would
consider if XP were no longer available. I use the automatic update
feature, and I dread the day that I get a particularly lengthy update, and
a reboot screen that reads:

"Welcome to Windows Vista! Microsoft has generously updated your old XP
system to our latest wonderful product at absolutely no charge to you!
Since you were a little short of disk space, we have removed those old
files so you will have more room for the colorful multimedia presentations
we have loaded there for your entertainment!"

Paul
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
(1) Any product you have in the public's hands exposes you to
liability suits.

Good old capitalist's rule: He who takes no risks will not win.

I have taken quite some risks in my career and I am sure you did. I
expect the same from our corporate leadership, else there won't be progress.

(2) In the automotive industry you have to provide parts for 7 years
after introduction.

A good company ups that to 15 or 20 years, at least. Else the reputation
is toast and in automotive a loos of reputation is nearly a permanent thing.

My guess is that the battery technology wasn't ready for prime time
and they had some accidental "events" they didn't publish.

Maybe they should send their engineers to a Japanese university then?

Sorry for being so sarcastic but sometimes the excuses the big three
come up with are almost sickening. And they should stop calling 32mpg
for a mid-size passenger car an achievement when my wife's 1995 Toyota
regularly nets >35mpg.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
The competition I was referring to is the sort that makes drivers do stupid
maneuvers to get one or two cars ahead in traffic, or resorting to
cutthroat tactics to get advancement in the business world. There is good
competition, and as long as it is fair, it results in better products and
better people. It's OK for people to engage in sports and games to
outmuscle and outsmart each other, but when they buy extra horsepower and
bigger vehicles and use them in a deadly real-life game on the roads, it
becomes a problem. That is where cooperation is really needed.

I sure don't want Vista. XP is the first OS (since maybe MSDOS6.22) that
seems to be stable and reliable. But at least there is Linux that I would
consider if XP were no longer available. I use the automatic update
feature, ...


Only over my dead body.

... and I dread the day that I get a particularly lengthy update, and
a reboot screen that reads:

"Welcome to Windows Vista! Microsoft has generously updated your old XP
system to our latest wonderful product at absolutely no charge to you!
Since you were a little short of disk space, we have removed those old
files so you will have more room for the colorful multimedia presentations
we have loaded there for your entertainment!"

Or you want to finish that one design that the client needs on Monday
and you realize that your CAD now only produces "An unknown error has
occurred and the application is being debugged", followed by 10 minutes
of trundling and a blue screen.
 
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