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Which uController to learn?

J

John E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
PIC is king, I'm sure. But I'd like to hear from those who are using all
brands. Whichever you use, what do you like about it? What don't you like
about others? Suggestions re. learning?

I've programmed 68000 assembly and some higher-level languages (FORTRAN; some
BASIC; COBOL if forced to admit it), so no stranger to programming, per se.

Thanks,
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
John E. said:
PIC is king, I'm sure. But I'd like to hear from those who are using all
brands. Whichever you use, what do you like about it?

8051 family. You can't keep a good chip down. It's been going since 1981 IIRC.
NXP's (formerly Philips) variants do all sorts of useful stuff with the 8051 core
plus their RAM is static now so you can reduce the clock to zero to save power.
And the 8051 is multi-sourced !

What don't you like about others?

PICs are indifferently documented so I've heard. I also heard something about
dodgy compilers.

Graham
 
I

Ian Bell

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
PIC is king, I'm sure. But I'd like to hear from those who are using all
brands. Whichever you use, what do you like about it? What don't you like
about others? Suggestions re. learning?

I've programmed 68000 assembly and some higher-level languages (FORTRAN;
some BASIC; COBOL if forced to admit it), so no stranger to programming,
per se.

Thanks,

The answer is strongly application dependent.

Ian
 
M

martin griffith

Jan 1, 1970
0
PIC is king, I'm sure. But I'd like to hear from those who are using all
brands. Whichever you use, what do you like about it? What don't you like
about others? Suggestions re. learning?

I've programmed 68000 assembly and some higher-level languages (FORTRAN; some
BASIC; COBOL if forced to admit it), so no stranger to programming, per se.

Thanks,

I'd start with lurking the usergroups, such as 8052.com and avrfreaks,
dont't know about a group for the MSP430. See what they are doing,
then pic(k) one. Lots of cheap eval boards. Some of the ARM micros
look amazing, but beyond my comprehension

Comp.arch.embedded NG usually has a "my micro is better than your
micro" thread going.
Also checkout GCC compilers, Winavr etc. as you seem to be qualified
for the dreaded makefile.

And be sure to practice your soldering skills/ interfacing techniques,
this is very important compared with the Windoze World


martin
 
J

jetq88

Jan 1, 1970
0
PIC is king, I'm sure. But I'd like to hear from those who are using all
brands. Whichever you use, what do you like about it? What don't you like
about others? Suggestions re. learning?

I've programmed 68000 assembly and some higher-level languages (FORTRAN; some
BASIC; COBOL if forced to admit it), so no stranger to programming, per se.

Thanks,

AVR, M68HC, PIC, pick either one, find a C compiler, go with it, some
chips have free compiler out there, like winavr for avr.
 
D

Don McKenzie

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
PIC is king, I'm sure. But I'd like to hear from those who are using all
brands. Whichever you use, what do you like about it? What don't you like
about others? Suggestions re. learning?

I've programmed 68000 assembly and some higher-level languages (FORTRAN; some
BASIC; COBOL if forced to admit it), so no stranger to programming, per se.

Thanks,


http://www.dontronics-shop.com/pages.php?pageid=23
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/pages.php?pageid=58

should provide a few pointers
Don...


--
Don McKenzie
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/e-mail.html

Crystal clear, super bright OLED LCD (128x128) for your microcontroller.
Simple serial RX/TX interface. Many memory sizes.
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/product.php?productid=16460

No More Damn Spam: http://www.wizard-of-oz.com
 
J

John E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks for your comments, Martin.
And be sure to practice your soldering skills/ interfacing techniques,
this is very important compared with the Windoze World

That's really why I'm interested in getting into the u-controller world. To
interface hardware to the "real world".

Soldering iron warmed up and at the ready...
 
B

Brendan Gillatt

Jan 1, 1970
0
PIC is king, I'm sure. But I'd like to hear from those who are using all
brands. Whichever you use, what do you like about it? What don't you like
about others? Suggestions re. learning?

I've programmed 68000 assembly and some higher-level languages (FORTRAN; some
BASIC; COBOL if forced to admit it), so no stranger to programming, per se.

Thanks,

You can't really say what one is 'best' - it depends on what you
really want to do.

Even with PICs it's hard to say which is best - from tiny 8 pin
controllers to massive 44 pin processing beasts with hundreds in
between.

PIC assembly is tiresome at the least. The instruction set is tiny
which means that they take considerably more coding than, say, x86
assembly.

Atmel micros are becoming popular too - though I haven't had any
experience with them.

Depending on what you want, you may look at *gasp* Basic Stamps, made
by Parralax (sp?) if you know BASIC well - just don't count on amazing
performance.
 
M

martin griffith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks for your comments, Martin.


That's really why I'm interested in getting into the u-controller world. To
interface hardware to the "real world".

Soldering iron warmed up and at the ready...

<sticking neck out>
checkout:
SPI interface, (realtime clocks, external eeproms etc.)
I2C, the uberversal philips interface, same as SPI, but different, and
pain in the neck IMHO
logic fets
H bridge
opto isolators
Reset and brownout detectors/ TL77xx etc from TI

and the universal "why doesn't my 2*8 LCD work"
Cos it takes many milliseconds to initialise, check the Fuckin* busy
flag

</sticking neck out>

and get a decent bench/lab power supply with adjustable current
limiting, and a scope


martin
 
A

Anthony Fremont

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
8051 family. You can't keep a good chip down. It's been going since
1981 IIRC. NXP's (formerly Philips) variants do all sorts of useful
stuff with the 8051 core plus their RAM is static now so you can
reduce the clock to zero to save power. And the 8051 is multi-sourced
!



PICs are indifferently documented so I've heard. I also heard
something about dodgy compilers.

Oh gawd. The biggest problem I've seen with PIC documentation is that
people won't read it. Almost every quirk and pitfall now gets fancy shaded
background balloons complete with code examples.

The only "dodgy" compiler I ever dealt with was SDCC for the 8052, what a
POS. It may be better now, but a few years ago it sucked bad. Of course I
don't even bother trying to use C on a PIC, it's just not desiged for it.
The 18Fs are different though, they do C ok. FWICT, everyone seems happy
with Microchip's ever-lasting "trial" C compiler for the 18Fs.

Multisourced, that's another misrepresentation. For the most part, chips
from different vendors are just similar archetectures, not "compatible"
chips insofar as actually being able to drop one in place of another. Not
to mention how vastly incompatible the code internals are for anything but
the most basic peripherals.

But that's just my opinion. ;-)
 
J

John E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
and get a decent bench/lab power supply with adjustable current
limiting, and a scope

Still looking into the former (many decent PS models coming out of Asia,
recently); got a couple of scopes.

Thanks,
 
P

petrus bitbyter

Jan 1, 1970
0
John E. said:
PIC is king, I'm sure. But I'd like to hear from those who are using all
brands. Whichever you use, what do you like about it? What don't you like
about others? Suggestions re. learning?

I've programmed 68000 assembly and some higher-level languages (FORTRAN;
some
BASIC; COBOL if forced to admit it), so no stranger to programming, per
se.

Thanks,


I often point to
http://www.voti.nl/swp/n_index.html
for an intro in PIC micro's.

If you have experience in 68000 then AVR may suit you better.

petrus bitbyter
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
PIC is king, I'm sure. But I'd like to hear from those who are using all
brands. Whichever you use, what do you like about it? What don't you like
about others? Suggestions re. learning?

I've programmed 68000 assembly and some higher-level languages (FORTRAN; some
BASIC; COBOL if forced to admit it), so no stranger to programming, per se.

PIC and Atmel AVR battle it out for the top spot in the entry level
market, you will get tons of beginner support (hardware, software, and
sample code) for either platform, arguably more than any other
platfrom.

Which is the "best" is dependant upon your application. For example,
if you do *really* low power stuff then the MSP430 series is very
popular. If you want seamless migration from Flash to OTP to Mask ROM
then PIC might be the way to go. If you want fast processing with a
reasonable number of options then AVR might be the best bet. The list
is endless...

For starting out, stick with AVR or PIC, and use a high level language
like C. Both platforms have free C compiler suites, but IMHO the AVR
GNU compiler is a PITA to get up and running, and the worst problem
you can have when starting out is having to fight your tools. Also, I
think the AVR STK500 programmer is (or was) a complete dog, horrible
for a beginner. PICs have their quirks too, but I had a *lot* more
trouble when starting out with the AVR's. But no doubt the AVR crowd
will shoot me down in flames...

The PIC 18 series C compiler is essentially free from Microchip, and
that combined with an MPLAB compatible programmer would be a very good
and powerful starting platform if you don't want to play with the
kiddie kits. However there are tons of good PIC starter kits and demo
boards around, just look at the Farnell catalog or any of the
multitude of PIC supplier website for starters.

Dave.
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Oh gawd. The biggest problem I've seen with PIC documentation is that
people won't read it. Almost every quirk and pitfall now gets fancy shaded
background balloons complete with code examples.

The only "dodgy" compiler I ever dealt with was SDCC for the 8052, what a
POS. It may be better now, but a few years ago it sucked bad. Of course I
don't even bother trying to use C on a PIC, it's just not desiged for it.

If you use a good C compiler like HI-TECH PIC-C then it works just
fine on any 16series (or even smaller) PIC. You can do heaps with C on
only 1K memory devices with a good compiler.
The 18Fs are different though, they do C ok. FWICT, everyone seems happy
with Microchip's ever-lasting "trial" C compiler for the 18Fs.

Yeah, very few limitations by the looks of it. I don't know why they
don't just make it free and be done with it. It would put a lot of the
other tool companies noses out of joint though I guess...

Dave.
 
T

TT_Man

Jan 1, 1970
0
John E. said:
PIC is king, I'm sure. But I'd like to hear from those who are using all
brands. Whichever you use, what do you like about it? What don't you like
about others? Suggestions re. learning?

I've programmed 68000 assembly and some higher-level languages (FORTRAN;
some
BASIC; COBOL if forced to admit it), so no stranger to programming, per
se.

Thanks,
For a no frills easy to understand and get going, I'd say 8051 series.
The Dallas 89c450 and Atmel 89c51ED2 both have hardware boot loaders so you
can get code into them very quickly and see whats going on with your code.
I hate C
 
A

Anthony Fremont

Jan 1, 1970
0
martin said:
<sticking neck out>
checkout:
SPI interface, (realtime clocks, external eeproms etc.)
I2C, the uberversal philips interface, same as SPI, but different, and
pain in the neck IMHO
logic fets
H bridge
opto isolators
Reset and brownout detectors/ TL77xx etc from TI

and the universal "why doesn't my 2*8 LCD work"
Cos it takes many milliseconds to initialise, check the Fuckin* busy
flag

Ah grasshopper, but that's the whole problem. You can't check the busy flag
when your doing initialization. At least it used to be that way. Most
circuits I've seen hard-wire the R/W pin so that they can't even read the
busy flag, they just do the delays. So sad, cuz some displays really haul
ass if you do the busy flag thing.

</sticking neck out>

and get a decent bench/lab power supply with adjustable current
limiting, and a scope

Most definitely gots to have that scope. Speaking of which, I just got my
very first DSO today. Ahhhhhhhhh..... this is the coolest thing ever.
;-)
 
A

Anthony Fremont

Jan 1, 1970
0
David said:
If you use a good C compiler like HI-TECH PIC-C then it works just
fine on any 16series (or even smaller) PIC. You can do heaps with C on
only 1K memory devices with a good compiler.

I've never used it, but I've heard good things about it. I always use
assembler on the PIC. I've used the Keil compiler on the 8052, sweet. It
really generates dense code. Never done anything with an 18F yet, but I
plan to whenever I need that much horsepower. I have to admit that there
have been times that I've longed to be writing something for the PIC in
other than assembler.
Yeah, very few limitations by the looks of it. I don't know why they
don't just make it free and be done with it. It would put a lot of the
other tool companies noses out of joint though I guess...

I'll have to order some 18Fs and give it a try. I got my Rigol scope today.
Oh man this is just way too cool. :)))
 
J

John E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Which is the "best" is dependant upon your application.

Well, to be fair, I didn't ask for "best". That's always a dead-end (or
open-end) discussion.

I'm really interested in my options for assembly programming for interfacing
with sensors, switches, etc., and controlling relays, LEDs, maybe the odd
7-segment or serial display. I don't think I'll need networking, or such, nor
that I'll get back into learning a high-level language (never tackled 'C' - I
think that would be a show-stopper, re. getting started with u-controllers).

So, I guess I'm asking for the the product line with the most supporting
(good) documentation and examples and which has the potential for easing me
toward my goal (ie, my previous para.) with the least hair-pulling.

Thanks,
 
J

john jardine

Jan 1, 1970
0
martin griffith said:
<sticking neck out>
checkout:
SPI interface, (realtime clocks, external eeproms etc.)
I2C, the uberversal philips interface, same as SPI, but different, and
pain in the neck IMHO
logic fets
H bridge
opto isolators
Reset and brownout detectors/ TL77xx etc from TI

and the universal "why doesn't my 2*8 LCD work"
Cos it takes many milliseconds to initialise, check the Fuckin* busy
flag

</sticking neck out>

and get a decent bench/lab power supply with adjustable current
limiting, and a scope


martin

And the 1 by 16 LCD, is electrically still a 2 by 8.
 
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