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Where's The LED's?

N

N9WOS

Jan 1, 1970
0
Residential grade ballast are around 9 and 1/2 inches long.
EDIT......
Commercial grade ballast are around 9 and 1/2 inches long.
residential grade ones are around 6 inches.
 
B

Bob Adkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
that's conjecture. It's a semiconductor, a diode, and those things have an
intrinsic cost. the price does not change much.

Conjecture?

White LED prices have been in free fall for 2 years. Their price has dropped
from over $10 to under $1 in that time. When the industry gets geared up for
multiple LED lights, you will see them drop from over $75 to under $15 in no
time. Bet?

I can't believe the lack of vision about the future of white LED's I have
encountered. I think they will largely supplant other home lighting within
5-6 years, and will become even more efficient. Even a 20% efficiency
increase in LED's will spell the death of other lighting.

I met the same resistance on rec.photography a few years back on digital
cameras. The word "never" came up every day. Never is a long time, but has
come and gone.

Bottom line, most people are slow to adopt new technology. People can be
stubborn and dogmatic.

Bob
 
B

Bob Adkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
Funny,

The tubes just went in the 2-lamp 48" fixture overhead here in my
computer room, not 10 minutes ago. I put that fixture up shortly after
I moved here in 1998. Tubes were new then. I don't think I've changed
out one tube in my workshop since then, either. In my experience, a
5-year life span is closer to the mark.

Please give me the name brand, and I don't want to hear Sylvania or GE.

Bob
 
B

Bob Adkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
The ones I got are quiet as can be.
Even cheep bulbs will easily last 3 or 4 years.
They start every time.
And I haven't had one ballast die in the 5 years since I got them.
Even though some of them I am running is over 15 years old.

Now THAT is useful information N9!

Instead of saying "Fluorescent good, incandescent bad", you gave some real
information.

So, not having any ballasts at my local flea market, how much can I expect
to pay for high quality ballasts new? Would it affect the overall economy of
fluorescent on a cost per year basis? If a ballast cost over $60, it would
take a lot longer to pay you back than a $1 ballast.

Bob
 
B

Bob Adkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
Speaking of ballast, our church put in some fluoresent lights a while back
and some of them are 'buzzing'. How do you put a stop to that?
In my experience? A rifle would just about do it. :)

Bob
 
B

Bob Adkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
EDIT......
Commercial grade ballast are around 9 and 1/2 inches long.
residential grade ones are around 6 inches.

RATS! I already have big ballasts!

Looks like getting "commercial grade" is no guarantee they won't fail at a
high rate around my house. I have about 8 fixtures, and one is always on the
fritz. I'm fed up, frankly.

Bob
 
B

Bob Adkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
with an unbreakable white LED stick. He simply would not believe the LED specs
and my initial lab initial test results, and insisted that I build a few working
prototypes. The temp inside the stick went over 100 deg F from the LED (not
ballast) power dissipation, and an array of 100 LEDs was still no comparison to
the light from a 15 watt fluoro tube. A shame when reality bites you in the ass
like that, but hey, it was his money.

OK, so they degrade after a few thousand hours.

That's a couple of years of use. In 2 years, the replacement LED array will
be much more efficient and much cheaper. I'm sure the coating technology is
young, and custom made for many incremental improvements ahead.

When we squinted at our 13", 4 color computer monitors in 1985, we had
little idea that in 15 years they would be 10X better and actually cheap and
practical.

Despite the arguments here, I believe there is cheap, efficient LED lighting
in my future.

Bob
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
that calculator isn't made with discrete devices. it's a single chip. the
price of a single diode, or a single transistor hasn't changed in 10 years.
white led's are still a single discrete diode. it's the phospers that have
dropped in price. efficiency has not changed much in the last 10 years, and
the diode component has not either.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
sounds like you have bad power. get a power audit done.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
believe what you want, Bob. Some of us work with electronics and understand
how they are made.

Lumens / watt and $ / lumen, CF's are the current game in town. LED's are
useful for spot lighting and instrumentation, not area lighting.
 
M

mark Ransley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Adkins ,You dont like Sylvania , GE , Cfls, or Flourescents,
First you probably have a voltage problem you are not aware of , Surge,
over , under voltage causing your problems, CFLs have a warranty, use
it. T12 are 4 times more efficent than LEDs. T8 are 6 times more
efficent, aproaching 100 lumen per watt vs 17 to 22 for LEDs. New 110
lumen per watt are in the works as are more efficent electronic
ballasts. Flourescents last 10000 to 20000 hrs depending on bulb type.
And GE , and Sylvania are leaders in quality and technology. Leds
have a longway to go to compete and are more than 10 yrs behind.
Good balasts, good fixtures, proper voltage , GE , Sylvania last, so do
good CFLs. At 95 lumen- watt T8 , you are dreamin , to wait ,
Sylvania has good color rendition bulbs , Check your power, Ill bet
surges are killing your equipment. You need Proper main ground, and
surge protection . Id buy Leds today if they compared in cost , Long
life , only if power surges never occur. That will never happen
 
T

Tom Quackenbush

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Adkins wrote:

I can't believe the lack of vision about the future of white LED's I have
encountered. I think they will largely supplant other home lighting within
5-6 years, and will become even more efficient. Even a 20% efficiency
increase in LED's will spell the death of other lighting.

Geez, Bob, it really sounds like you're asking people to just tell
you what you want to hear. You didn't start off this thread asking for
speculation about the advantages of white LEDs in 5-6 years, you asked
why we don't hear more about their energy savings. When several people
point out that they aren't very energy efficient for many
applications, you change the parameters to include LED's long life.
Someone points out that their life might not be as long as you thought
and you change the question to "what about in the future?". It seems
to me that several people are making a good faith effort to tell you
of their current knowledge & experiences with white LEDs and your
response is to call them short-sighted.

I don't know about all the other folks that responded, but I told
you why I'm not replacing all my fluorescent fixtures/CFLs with LEDs
TODAY. If white LEDs are better, more efficient and longer lasting in
the future, then that's when I'll buy them - in the FUTURE.
I met the same resistance on rec.photography a few years back on digital
cameras. The word "never" came up every day. Never is a long time, but has
come and gone.

Bottom line, most people are slow to adopt new technology. People can be
stubborn and dogmatic.

Maybe. So how many LED fixtures are _you_ using in your house now?
You don't need our approval to buy them. I'm sure we'd all like to
hear of your experience with them (I'm not being sarcastic here).

BTW, it sure sounds like you've got a problem with your fluorescent
fixtures (poor ballasts?) or maybe a power/wiring issue. I'm no expert
& I don't have any hard numbers, but I'd expect the lamps to last
several years. We replaced all the fixtures at work with new T8
fixtures ~2 years ago; I'll ask the electricians how the lamps are
holding up. I did buy a couple of crappy Walmart ($15 ?) T40 fixtures
last year, but replaced the ballasts after a couple of weeks with
Advance electronic T8 ballasts - I couldn't put up with the buzzing
and poor starting. I don't know what effect the new ballasts will have
on the lamp lifetime, though.

R,
Tom Q.
 
M

mark Ransley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob adkins a 20 % increase in leds will do nada , T8 will still be 5x
more efficent even in present form , 110 lumen T8 will be out, and
in 6 years with better, more efficent ballasts who knows. Only time
will tell. For now , for years, its T 8 .
 
M

mark Ransley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob you are also ASSuming color rendition of Leds will be appealing. As
flourescents used to be terrible in living enviorments , they are now
fairly pleasant and will continue to improve. LEDs , will have to be
proven to be pleasing, not just advertised as such.
 
N

N9WOS

Jan 1, 1970
0
So, not having any ballasts at my local flea market, how much can I expect
to pay for high quality ballasts new? Would it affect the overall economy of
fluorescent on a cost per year basis? If a ballast cost over $60, it would
take a lot longer to pay you back than a $1 ballast.

Most places around here sell them for $10 to $12
The two brands they sell is Sylvania and Advance.
I have had no problems with the Sylvania brand either.
I have a few lights around here that came with Sylvania ballast.

And I run 40W Sylvania bulbs in them.
I have a few 32W GE energy saver bulbs around here.
The 32W ones will work, but their life is a tad shorter.
 
G

Gordon Richmond

Jan 1, 1970
0
Put new tubes in yesterday. They were a little slow warming up this
morning, so I think the ballast may be on its way out. The fixture was
used when I installed it. The new tubes are GE Wattmiser F40-CW-RS-WM,
made in USA, 34 watt.

Gordon Richmond
 
N

N9WOS

Jan 1, 1970
0
Put new tubes in yesterday. They were a little slow warming up this
morning, so I think the ballast may be on its way out. The fixture was
used when I installed it. The new tubes are GE Wattmiser F40-CW-RS-WM,
made in USA, 34 watt.

It's the bulbs, not the ballast.
Wall mart sells those 34W bulbs for their junky shop lights.
When I put them in any normal CF fixture, the bulbs are cranky.
They flicker and everything else before they warm up.
The warm up problem definitely happen when you have
a ballast that isn't designed to work with them.
And their life expectancy isn't the greatest.
Put in a good set of 40W bulbs and it will work fine.
 
B

Bob Adkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Adkins ,You dont like Sylvania , GE , Cfls, or Flourescents,
First you probably have a voltage problem you are not aware of , Surge,
over , under voltage causing your problems, CFLs have a warranty, use
it. T12 are 4 times more efficent than LEDs. T8 are 6 times more
efficent, aproaching 100 lumen per watt vs 17 to 22 for LEDs. New 110
lumen per watt are in the works as are more efficent electronic
ballasts. Flourescents last 10000 to 20000 hrs depending on bulb type.
And GE , and Sylvania are leaders in quality and technology. Leds
have a longway to go to compete and are more than 10 yrs behind.
Good balasts, good fixtures, proper voltage , GE , Sylvania last, so do
good CFLs. At 95 lumen- watt T8 , you are dreamin , to wait ,
Sylvania has good color rendition bulbs , Check your power, Ill bet
surges are killing your equipment. You need Proper main ground, and
surge protection . Id buy Leds today if they compared in cost , Long
life , only if power surges never occur. That will never happen

I've checked my voltage. I live in a new neighborhood with new wiring.

Within a few months of purchase, my tubes are black on the ends. I have a
surge indicator, and have only seen 1 surge in the past 4 years.

It may be crappy ballasts. I have changed most of them twice. They either
quit working or puff up and leak black dielectric goop.

Like it or not, you have LED's in your future. Lots and lots of LED's.

Bob
 
B

Bob Adkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
The warm up problem definitely happen when you have
a ballast that isn't designed to work with them.
And their life expectancy isn't the greatest.
Put in a good set of 40W bulbs and it will work fine.

Thanks N9. I'll give that a try.

Bob
 
B

Bob Adkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
Most places around here sell them for $10 to $12
The two brands they sell is Sylvania and Advance.
I have had no problems with the Sylvania brand either.
I have a few lights around here that came with Sylvania ballast.

Holy schmoly!

I paid over $30 per ballast! No wonder I'm mad! :)

Bob
 
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