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what's wrong with this circuit?

M

Michael Robinson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello fellas

I breadboarded the circuit in this magazine article:
http://electronicdesign.com/article/power/single-solar-cell-trickle-charges-3-to-16-v-batter.aspx
and eventuallly figured out how it works.
In the text, the author never zeros in on what actually makes the circuit
switch.
All that's really happening is that the draw from the inductor sucks charge
out of C2, turning off Q2 which flips the inverter U1a, turning Q4 off, then
C2 charges up, the mosfet turns back on etc. I found this out because I
tried to drive the circuit from a low impedance power supply set to .65
volts and it didn't work, but with a little resistance in series with the
..65 volts it ran. I also found out that C4 has very little effect; I simply
yanked it out of the breadboard. The circuit kept running, and the
frequency changed less than 10%.
The circuit below is a lot simpler than what's in the article and does
exactly the same thing (view in monospaced font):

,------+------------------------------------------,
| | |
| 1R )
| | ) 160uH
| --- solar )
| - 0.65v
| ---
,--------+--------------------------|------------------+------,
| - | | | BAT54 |
|
| | | ,-------, +-->|--+--2R--+----+
|
| | +---|1 14 \ 1N4148 | | | |
|
| gnd | | \ |--' | | |
|
| 1M | 3 )o---+-->|----+--|| 100uF |
---
| | | / | | |--, | | |
batt -
| +---|2 7 / | < |IRF530| |
---
| | '-------' '------| | | 100uF
-
| / | \ | | | |
|
+---100k-+--| PN2222 | CD4093 2N3906 | | | | |
|
| | > | | | | | zener
|
| | | | | | | | |
|
10uF 1M | | | | | | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
|
'--------+----+--------+-------------------+------+------+------+----+------'
|
gnd

What's funny is that I'm in a college EE class where the professor assigned
us this circuit to build in the lab and do a report on. He posted the
diagram but not where it came from. The professor repeated the explanation
from the electronics design article. Everybody went in the lab, built the
circuit and did reports on it, including me. It was actually our final
project of the semester, and each lab group had to work up a power point
presentation and give it in front of the class. While we were in the lab
building the circuit, I figured out that C4 was pretty much pointless, the
timing was done at C2 and said so during our presentation, but it was only
last nigh that I twigged to the fact that three of the gates and a bunch of
passives are useless as well.
So this morning I got on the computer and was able to find where our prof
got that circuit. I think I also located the author. There's a George
Woolcott living in Harrodsburg KY, near Lexington, which is where the
author's employer Lexmark has its headquarters. I'm considering contacting
him and telling him our college class built his circuit as an assignment and
ask if he would like to comment on it.
But the semester is ending in just a few days. I don't have hiis email and
would have to call him on the land-line number I found. I suppose I should
just talk to the professor instead.
 
W

Winston

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael said:
Hello fellas

I breadboarded the circuit in this magazine article:
http://electronicdesign.com/article/power/single-solar-cell-trickle-charges-3-to-16-v-batter.aspx
and eventuallly figured out how it works.
In the text, the author never zeros in on what actually makes the circuit
switch.
All that's really happening is that the draw from the inductor sucks charge
out of C2, turning off Q2 which flips the inverter U1a, turning Q4 off, then
C2 charges up, the mosfet turns back on etc. I found this out because I
tried to drive the circuit from a low impedance power supply set to .65
volts and it didn't work, but with a little resistance in series with the
.65 volts it ran. I also found out that C4 has very little effect; I simply
yanked it out of the breadboard. The circuit kept running, and the
frequency changed less than 10%.
The circuit below is a lot simpler than what's in the article and does
exactly the same thing (view in monospaced font):

,------+------------------------------------------,
| | |
| 1R )
| | ) 160uH
| --- solar )
| - 0.65v
| ---
,--------+--------------------------|------------------+------,
| - | | | BAT54 |
|
| | | ,-------, +-->|--+--2R--+----+
|
| | +---|1 14 \ 1N4148 | | | |
|
| gnd | | \ |--' | | |
|
| 1M | 3 )o---+-->|----+--|| 100uF |
---
| | | / | | |--, | | |
batt -
| +---|2 7 / |< |IRF530| |
---
| | '-------' '------| | | 100uF
-
| / | \ | | | |
|
+---100k-+--| PN2222 | CD4093 2N3906 | | | | |
|
| |> | | | | | zener
|
| | | | | | | | |
|
10uF 1M | | | | | | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
|
'--------+----+--------+-------------------+------+------+------+----+------'
|
gnd

What's funny is that I'm in a college EE class where the professor assigned
us this circuit to build in the lab and do a report on. He posted the
diagram but not where it came from. The professor repeated the explanation
from the electronics design article. Everybody went in the lab, built the
circuit and did reports on it, including me. It was actually our final
project of the semester, and each lab group had to work up a power point
presentation and give it in front of the class. While we were in the lab
building the circuit, I figured out that C4 was pretty much pointless, the
timing was done at C2 and said so during our presentation, but it was only
last nigh that I twigged to the fact that three of the gates and a bunch of
passives are useless as well.
So this morning I got on the computer and was able to find where our prof
got that circuit. I think I also located the author. There's a George
Woolcott living in Harrodsburg KY, near Lexington, which is where the
author's employer Lexmark has its headquarters. I'm considering contacting
him and telling him our college class built his circuit as an assignment and
ask if he would like to comment on it.
But the semester is ending in just a few days. I don't have hiis email and
would have to call him on the land-line number I found. I suppose I should
just talk to the professor instead.

This's simpler still:
http://www.bigclive.com/joule.htm

--Winston
 
J

John KD5YI

Jan 1, 1970
0
Good point. It's hard to beat a blocking oscillator.

John

Here is one I did for a solar cell which I had on hand to charge a 6V
(or 12V) SLA. What is not shown is the microcontroller that measures the
battery voltage and discontinues charging if the float voltage exceeds a
threshold. It has been working since spring of 2007 as a stand-alone
supply for my weather station. The extra components surrounding the
transformer are measured strays, etc, for simulation. The transformer
was a dual-winding inductor whose part number I do not have before me at
the moment.

5 components not including the solar cell and battery.

Version 4
SHEET 1 1092 852
WIRE 128 144 -160 144
WIRE 384 144 192 144
WIRE -688 224 -784 224
WIRE -592 224 -688 224
WIRE -368 224 -592 224
WIRE -160 224 -160 144
WIRE -160 224 -368 224
WIRE -112 224 -160 224
WIRE 112 224 -32 224
WIRE 256 224 208 224
WIRE 384 224 384 144
WIRE 384 224 336 224
WIRE 560 224 384 224
WIRE 112 240 112 224
WIRE 208 240 208 224
WIRE -784 256 -784 224
WIRE -592 256 -592 224
WIRE -160 304 -160 224
WIRE 384 304 384 224
WIRE -688 320 -688 224
WIRE -784 352 -784 336
WIRE 112 368 112 320
WIRE 208 368 208 320
WIRE -688 400 -688 384
WIRE -592 432 -592 320
WIRE -160 480 -160 368
WIRE 112 480 112 448
WIRE 112 480 -160 480
WIRE 208 480 208 448
WIRE 384 480 384 368
WIRE 384 480 208 480
WIRE -592 528 -592 512
WIRE -368 560 -368 224
WIRE -304 560 -368 560
WIRE 208 560 208 480
WIRE 208 560 -224 560
WIRE 112 592 112 480
WIRE 112 592 -32 592
WIRE 112 640 112 592
WIRE -32 656 -272 656
WIRE -272 688 -272 656
WIRE -32 720 -32 656
WIRE 560 720 560 224
WIRE 560 720 160 720
WIRE -272 768 -272 752
WIRE 112 768 112 736
WIRE -32 816 -32 800
FLAG 112 768 0
FLAG -784 352 0
FLAG -592 528 0
FLAG -688 400 0
FLAG -32 816 0
FLAG -272 768 0
SYMBOL ind2 96 224 R0
SYMATTR InstName Lp
SYMATTR Value 100µ
SYMATTR Type ind
SYMBOL ind2 192 224 R0
SYMATTR InstName Ls
SYMATTR Value 100µ
SYMATTR Type ind
SYMBOL ind -128 240 R270
WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 0
WINDOW 3 5 56 VBottom 0
SYMATTR InstName Llp
SYMATTR Value 1.5µ
SYMBOL ind 240 240 R270
WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 0
WINDOW 3 5 56 VBottom 0
SYMATTR InstName Lls
SYMATTR Value 1.5µ
SYMBOL res 96 352 R0
SYMATTR InstName Rp
SYMATTR Value .343
SYMBOL res 192 352 R0
SYMATTR InstName Rs
SYMATTR Value .343
SYMBOL cap 368 304 R0
SYMATTR InstName Cs
SYMATTR Value 4p
SYMBOL cap -176 304 R0
SYMATTR InstName Cp
SYMATTR Value 4p
SYMBOL res -208 544 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 47
SYMBOL current -784 336 R180
WINDOW 0 24 88 Left 0
WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName I1
SYMATTR Value .4
SYMBOL cap -704 320 R0
SYMATTR InstName C2
SYMATTR Value .1µ
SYMBOL schottky -48 592 R0
WINDOW 3 -94 16 Left 0
WINDOW 0 -50 -14 Left 0
SYMATTR Value 1N5817
SYMATTR InstName D5
SYMATTR Description Diode
SYMATTR Type diode
SYMBOL voltage -32 704 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 0 -45 5 Left 0
WINDOW 3 -51 96 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 6
SYMBOL schottky -608 256 R0
SYMATTR InstName D2
SYMATTR Value BAT54
SYMATTR Description Diode
SYMATTR Type diode
SYMBOL voltage -592 416 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName V2
SYMATTR Value .72
SYMBOL nmos 160 640 M0
WINDOW 0 5 -10 Left 0
WINDOW 3 -126 31 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName M1
SYMATTR Value IRF7343N
SYMBOL cap 192 128 R90
WINDOW 0 10 70 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 -18 -7 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName Ct
SYMATTR Value 14p
SYMBOL cap -288 688 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value .1µ
TEXT 104 192 Left 0 !K1 Lp Ls 1
TEXT -552 728 Left 0 !.tran 0 .002 0 1u
TEXT -744 128 Left 0 ;Solar cell
TEXT -152 760 Left 0 ;Battery
TEXT -64 80 Left 0 ;Transformer
TEXT 688 256 Left 0 !;.step temp -25 75 100
TEXT 704 344 Left 0 !;.temp 75
TEXT 176 640 Left 0 ;Actually, Fairchild FDN335N
TEXT 160 672 Left 0 ;-----------------------
TEXT 96 528 Left 0 ;1
TEXT -224 208 Left 0 ;3
TEXT 216 528 Left 0 ;4
TEXT 472 208 Left 0 ;6
RECTANGLE Normal -464 592 -880 144
RECTANGLE Normal 32 848 -160 688
RECTANGLE Normal 464 512 -208 96
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
What's funny is that I'm in a college EE class where the professor assigned
us this circuit to build in the lab and do a report on.


Then the error is deliberate, and you should not rely on others to
determine what it is.
 
J

John KD5YI

Jan 1, 1970
0
Good point. It's hard to beat a blocking oscillator.

John

Here is one I did for a solar cell which I had on hand to charge a 6V
(or 12V) SLA. What is not shown is the microcontroller that measures the
battery voltage and discontinues charging if the float voltage exceeds a
threshold. It has been working since spring of 2007 as a stand-alone
supply for my weather station. The extra components surrounding the
transformer are measured strays, etc, for simulation. The transformer
was a dual-winding inductor whose part number I do not have before me at
the moment.

Breadboard looks like:

http://sophisticatedsolutions.us/mypics/index.php
 
W

Winston

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Here is one I did for a solar cell which I had on hand to charge a 6V
(or 12V) SLA. What is not shown is the microcontroller that measures the
battery voltage and discontinues charging if the float voltage exceeds a
threshold. It has been working since spring of 2007 as a stand-alone
supply for my weather station. The extra components surrounding the
transformer are measured strays, etc, for simulation. The transformer
was a dual-winding inductor whose part number I do not have before me at
the moment.

5 components not including the solar cell and battery.
(...)


Very cool John!

Nifty circuit!

--Winston
 
J

John KD5YI

Jan 1, 1970
0
(...)


Very cool John!

Nifty circuit!

--Winston

Hey, thanks. I didn't spend much time on it to make it efficient because
I figured solar power is free. No need to worry about it.

Cheers,
John
 
J

John KD5YI

Jan 1, 1970
0
Good point. It's hard to beat a blocking oscillator.

John

Here is one I did for a solar cell which I had on hand to charge a 6V
(or 12V) SLA. What is not shown is the microcontroller that measures the
battery voltage and discontinues charging if the float voltage exceeds a
threshold. It has been working since spring of 2007 as a stand-alone
supply for my weather station. The extra components surrounding the
transformer are measured strays, etc, for simulation. The transformer
was a dual-winding inductor whose part number I do not have before me at
the moment.

Breadboard looks like:

http://sophisticatedsolutions.us/mypics/index.php


And here it is under a little florescent lamp. Yes, I know the current
is low. So is the influx:

http://sophisticatedsolutions.us/mypics/index.php
 
M

Michael Robinson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello fellas
I breadboarded the circuit in this magazine
article:http://electronicdesign.com/article/power/single-solar-cell-trickle-c...
and eventuallly figured out how it works.
In the text, the author never zeros in on what actually makes the
circuit
switch.
All that's really happening is that the draw from the inductor sucks
charge
out of C2, turning off Q2 which flips the inverter U1a, turning Q4 off,
then
C2 charges up, the mosfet turns back on etc.
[snip]
There is a subtlety to the ED circuit you and the others are missing-
apparently differential equations are beyond most EEs in this day and
time- there is much more to this circuit than merely getting it to
oscillate. Your experiment with placing a resistor in series with the
power supply simulating the PV making it work is a clue ....To make a
short story shorter- your circuit is a low performance joke ,and the
original circuit is in a different league, the league of circuits that
are useful and productive.

I mentioned above that the frequency of oscillation of the "improved"
circuit is going to change with the amount of light falling on the cell.
Lots of light will cause the IRF530 to stay on for shorter and shorter
periods of time, and since the boost converter is running open loop it
means the output voltage at the battery terminal will fall with
increasing light to the cell. Perhaps you have a different issue in mind.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes- my issue relates to 1/2 C V^2= 1/2 L I^2 and the fact that the PV
goes into photocurrent mode with a much smaller current than that
supplied by the capacitor. So PV trickle charges C2 up to VBE(ON) of
Q2, the latch swtches , discharging C2 through the boost L, and the R4-
C4 is timed to switch everything off (via the latch and overriding the
Q2 input because it is High) just when I=Ipk. Turning off sooner or
later means less energy transfer to the battery per cycle. This is
what the description of R4-C4 time constant being 1/4 x 1/sqrt(LC) is
all about- it's not perfect but at least it tries. Allowing the
voltage across C2 to determine switch off time by dropping below the
VBE threshold of Q2 almost certainly does not fully discharge the
available energy.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm going to have to chew on it for while.
At this point what I understand is: there was indeed a rationale for the
desiign.
Whether it works great or only so-so isn't really all that important to me
at this point.
 
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