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What's the deal with plumbing

C

Carl Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
So this morning, as someone decided that it would be a good idea
to run the dishwasher at the same time I wanted to take a
shower, the following thought hit me:

What's the deal with plumbing? It's like a circuit board with a
power supply that has no line or load regulation, no filter
capacitors, traces too small to handle the necessary current,
and no bypass capacitors.
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Carl Smith said:
What's the deal with plumbing? It's like a circuit board with a
power supply that has no line or load regulation, no filter
capacitors, traces too small to handle the necessary current,
and no bypass capacitors.

It's not quite as bad as you're saying... back at the pumping station, there's
certainly regulation, and there is a tiny amount of filtering (those water
hammer prevention tubes). I'd say it'd more like a board that has long leads
(inductance) going back to a reasonably good, regulated power supply... but no
point-of-load regulation (other than by you turning valves!). As for traces
too small to handle the current... this is often a historical problem, where
systems designed for small communities end up being overloaded when the
population explodes, or when the pipes become gummed up throughout your house
or start springing leaks. (There are cities where for every gallon put into
the system, a shocking small fraction comes out -- like 1/2! -- the rest being
lost to leakage.)

I believe there are plenty of fancy devices for plumbing to keep everything
kopesetic under varying conditions, but of course these devices cost money,
and in some cases are difficult to implement without control electronics as
well (and historically it seems that plumbers and electricians don't always
talk to each other than much!). It does seem that developed countries outside
the U.S. have slightly more sophisticated plumbing... some have incoming "high
pressure" lines that are used for things like washing machines, dishwashers,
sprinklers, etc., but then split off a regulated lower pressure line for
faucets; you have to be careful to buy the right faucet in stores, as many
can't be used directly off the high pressure line. Someone from overseas can
clue me in more here...
 
K

Keith

Jan 1, 1970
0
So this morning, as someone decided that it would be a good idea
to run the dishwasher at the same time I wanted to take a
shower, the following thought hit me:

What's the deal with plumbing? It's like a circuit board with a
power supply that has no line or load regulation, no filter
capacitors, traces too small to handle the necessary current,
and no bypass capacitors.
You can buy regulators (proportional control valves).
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Joel,
It's not quite as bad as you're saying... back at the pumping station, there's
certainly regulation, and there is a tiny amount of filtering (those water
hammer prevention tubes). I'd say it'd more like a board that has long leads
(inductance) going back to a reasonably good, regulated power supply... but no
point-of-load regulation (other than by you turning valves!). As for traces
too small to handle the current... this is often a historical problem, where
systems designed for small communities end up being overloaded when the
population explodes, ...


It's more on a local level in most cases. Lines into houses are puny in
the US, 1/2" or 3/4". So what Carl is seeing is that the advent of
modern appliances such as dishwashers did not come with a subsequent
upsizing of the pipes ("traces"). In the old days you poured water into
a kettle, heated it up and dumped it into a bathtub. Dishes were washed
in the sink, often the same location where that kettle was being filled.

... It does seem that developed countries outside
the U.S. have slightly more sophisticated plumbing... some have incoming "high
pressure" lines that are used for things like washing machines, dishwashers,
sprinklers, etc., but then split off a regulated lower pressure line for
faucets; you have to be careful to buy the right faucet in stores, as many
can't be used directly off the high pressure line. Someone from overseas can
clue me in more here...

Other countries do have better plumbing. I have lived in Europe and was
used to nary any pressure drops because the main line was 1" or more. We
could use toilets without tanks, something that is next to impossible in
the average US residence. This also meant no spills. We had a tank
quietly break a couple years ago while nobody was in the house. What a mess.

After moving to the US I was pretty amazed about the yard sprinkler
systems. Until the day when I took a shower and the first backyard
circuit came on. Then I looked at the tiny main line coming in and was
surprised. Bought a pressure gauge and voila: A drop from 50psi+ to
under 20psi when the sprinklers came on. Bought some more plumbing, a
bigger timer and split the circuit so it's better now.

Regards, Joerg
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
So this morning, as someone decided that it would be a good idea
to run the dishwasher at the same time I wanted to take a
shower, the following thought hit me:

What's the deal with plumbing? It's like a circuit board with a
power supply that has no line or load regulation, no filter
capacitors, traces too small to handle the necessary current,
and no bypass capacitors.

And wires that self-oscillate.

John
 
C

Carl Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's more on a local level in most cases. Lines into houses are puny in
the US, 1/2" or 3/4".

Yes, I was thinking more of the plumbing in my house than the
city water distribution system.
 
R

Richard Henry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Keith said:
You can buy regulators (proportional control valves).

What do you do if the pressure is already too low?
 
G

Glenn Gundlach

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard Henry wrote:
What do you do if the pressure is already too low?

When I called the city for that problem, they came out and measure the
pressure at the street at 100 psi. They measured it in the backyard and
found 85 psi and they wondered why. HEY GUYS, the house is up a
hill... The pressure was even lower on the second floor. duh. Later the
street regulator went bad and started oscillating. Pipes rattling is
not a happy sound. They were reluctant to fix that as well though they
finally sorted it out.

GG
 
G

Genome

Jan 1, 1970
0
Carl Smith said:
So this morning, as someone decided that it would be a good idea
to run the dishwasher at the same time I wanted to take a
shower, the following thought hit me:

What's the deal with plumbing? It's like a circuit board with a
power supply that has no line or load regulation, no filter
capacitors, traces too small to handle the necessary current,
and no bypass capacitors.

It's like Hi-Fi.....

You should install a separate spur from the main inlet to your shower.

DNA
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
What do you do if the pressure is already too low?

You fork out for a booster pump. Turn your shower into a pressure
washer.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Carl,
Yes, I was thinking more of the plumbing in my house than the
city water distribution system.


Upgrading that would be expensive. Also, I have heard that the base
charge from the water works is higher if you want a larger size main
into the house. Never understood why though.

Regards, Joerg
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Maybe they figure the cost of the water mains is determined by the
potential peak usage.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Part of it is the meter size.

...Jim Thompson
 
M

martin griffith

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's like Hi-Fi.....

You should install a separate spur from the main inlet to your shower.

DNA
Really nasty ground loops, maybe?


martin
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Carl,



Upgrading that would be expensive. Also, I have heard that the base
charge from the water works is higher if you want a larger size main
into the house. Never understood why though.
Regards, Joerg

Maybe they figure the cost of the water mains is determined by the
potential peak usage.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
G

Genome

Jan 1, 1970
0
martin griffith said:
Really nasty ground loops, maybe?


martin

Too bloody right!

Have to upgrade the shower drainage as well or at least remove the pubic
hair body grease soap scum white slimy stuff from the plug hole.

DNA
 
M

martin griffith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Too bloody right!

Have to upgrade the shower drainage as well or at least remove the pubic
hair body grease soap scum white slimy stuff from the plug hole.

DNA
Spanish Bogs.... Still got a limit of 4 sheets of toilet paper per
flush, and my house is less than 2 years old grrr........


martin
 
G

Genome

Jan 1, 1970
0
martin griffith said:
Spanish Bogs.... Still got a limit of 4 sheets of toilet paper per
flush, and my house is less than 2 years old grrr........


martin

Bloody Catholics.

You should become a Muslim, they have combined shower/bog/bidet systems as a
pre-requisite of their religion.

God makes us suffer whilst Allah plays cool dude.

DNA
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jan 1, 1970
0
martin said:
Spanish Bogs.... Still got a limit of 4 sheets of toilet paper per
flush, and my house is less than 2 years old grrr........

Do the drains clog if you use more ?

Graham
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's like Hi-Fi.....

You should install a separate spur from the main inlet to your shower.

Actually, I have seen bypass capacitors, or bypass capacitor analogues.
Maybe "decoupling" would be better - it's a vertical stub of pipe in the
wall just behind the valve. The stub is normally full of air, which
gets compressed as it tries to fill with water. Does wonders for
"water hammer".

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's not quite as bad as you're saying... back at the pumping station, there's
certainly regulation, and there is a tiny amount of filtering (those water
hammer prevention tubes). I'd say it'd more like a board that has long leads
(inductance) going back to a reasonably good, regulated power supply... but no
point-of-load regulation (other than by you turning valves!). As for traces
too small to handle the current... this is often a historical problem, where
systems designed for small communities end up being overloaded when the
population explodes, or when the pipes become gummed up throughout your house
or start springing leaks. (There are cities where for every gallon put into
the system, a shocking small fraction comes out -- like 1/2! -- the rest being
lost to leakage.)

Or to the watering of lawns. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
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