What's a GOOD color, low cost, flat panel TV ...reliably work for awhile?

[Anthony Stewart]

I remember when LG were 1st at Comdex to offer huge wide screen LCD's for ten grand.

It all depends how many people need to watch TV. If myself, I prefer the low noise, high contrast, high dpi, accurate colour of a good PC monitor.

My LG 25" 96 dpi 1080p looks much better at arm's length than my 43" LCD at any distance.
the LG has had 170deg viewing angle and low reflectance glass coating.


Techy Stuff...
If you ever experience dead pixels , they may be intermittent charge trap issues which can be erased with charge cycles of alternating contrast and colours using a free windows program called DPT.exe. I use it to tweak the gamma error, which is often the poorest feature and never spec'd in monitors.
Gamma error is responsible for the color errors at different brightness levels as the LCD is not a perfect linear display. It controls the curve of saturation vs intensity for each colour so the gary scale is perfect white tothe eye at all levels of luminance from black to white. The standby mode of TVs and LCD's often causes bad pixels which can be corrected with many power cycles or simply use DPT in the zone with the bad pixel. Fortunately these flaws are much less frequent and shorted transistors won't e fixed with this , just marginal trapped charge leakage issues that cause stuck pixels On.

Also consider that unless your theatre is pitch black... 2million:1 contrast ratio is lost with >>1% reflectance of clear glass TV's with the room lights still on.

.... although frosted glass anti-reflective glass is cheap and reduces roomlighting reflectance it adds diffusion or blur to small fonts on hi-res, optical anti-reflective coatings are best, like those used in camera lenses but too expensive for big screens but not so for smaller 25" LCDs.


Depends on your budget but, I don't use Netflix and get all my media from OTA HD antenna with HomeRun digital tuner on router and Ice Fils addon to XBMC
For DVD quality.

I can get same quality on my VGA at 1080p as HDMI with DPT.exe tuning to video card controls toTV with a good cable.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Jeff,

Auto Lip Sync is suppose to be automatic with HDMI 1.3 and above.
However, if the original broadcast is screwed up, it stays that way.

There are various lip sync correction boxes ranging from crude:
<http://www.avtoolbox.com/ap411.shtml>
to less crude:
<http://www.felston.com/dd740/>
If you're recording, VLC has built in lip sync correction:
<http://lifehacker.com/367558/fix-desynchronized-video-and-audio-with-vlc>
<http://lifehacker.com/5910943/fix-out+of+sync-audio-in-vlc-with-a-keyboard-shortcut>

I was thinking of something for "post processing". E.g., just a piece
of software.

Imagine previewing an existing "video" in something like Premiere,
Pinnacle/Avid, etc. Identifying some "percussive" video event in the
video stream. Finding the corresponding percussive audio event in the
audio stream. Tagging them "together". Then, moving on to other
points in the two streams and repeating the exercise.

Once done (and previewed), let the software tweek the REsampling rates
so the audio and video events "line up" -- distributing any error
gradually, over time (or not, depending on the nature of the sync
failure).

I.e., all of the "time" required to do this would be user-bound
(how long it takes to find suitable synchronization events in the
two streams) -- the actual "rerecording" would happen at CPU speed.

Somewhere in my collection of old books on "radio physics" is the
story of how the original 1936 RMA/NTSC video standard was contrived.
The major issues were occupied RF bandwidth versus number of lines.
Various configurations were tested based upon how far away from the
then tiny 9(?) inch round screen could the picture be viewed
comfortably. The winning compromise was the 525 line, interlaced, 30
fps, and 6 MHz standard. With todays monstrously large screen LCD
displays, the issue is not how far away one can see the screen, but
how close one can get.

Yup. Even with upsampling.

But this was also true of large CRT's At some point, the "illusion"
of a continuous color/intensity surface falls apart.

Many (many!) years ago, Sony (?) had a display built out of
umpteen bajillion small "CRT's". Each had three large rectangular
phosphors painted on it -- just like a greatly enlarged version of
their trinitron mask. These were arranged side-by-side, row-by-row
to build up a large "display". Which was then driven AS IF a
monolithic display.

"Up close" (i.e., 20 ft away), it just looked like lots of large
green, red, etc. blobs. Just like a trinitron CRT does, "up close"
(i.e., a few inches away) :>

 

[Don Y]

Hi Anthony,

It all depends how many people need to watch TV. If myself, I prefer
the low noise, high contrast, high dpi, accurate colour of a good PC
monitor.

Most monitors aren't "calibrated" for accurate color reproduction
(I use a Spyder Tm when proofing for publication. Similarly, calibrate
the printers and scanners).

My LG 25" 96 dpi 1080p looks much better at arm's length than my 43"
LCD at any distance.

I *loathe* doing anything other than "work" on a "PC". E.g., reading
anything of length usually requires me to print (paper) the material
and then take it elsewhere to read. "TV" (videos) I'd prefer to watch
sitting comfortably on the floor instead of "bolt upright" in my desk
chair.

the LG has had 170deg viewing angle and low reflectance glass coating.

Depends on your budget but, I don't use Netflix and get all my media
from OTA HD antenna with HomeRun digital tuner on router and Ice Fils
addon to XBMC
For DVD quality.

Most of our video is consumed from DVD's retrieved from the local
public library. The balance from (typically live) OTA broadcasts.
*Nothing* from "internet sources"

 

[Charlie E.]

Hi Charlie,



<frown> Then you get older and are more concerned with how visible
the SUBTITLES are! :-/

(Given the prevalence of the audio/video sync problems, it's almost
easier to *read* the dialogue -- and avoid noticing the annoying
"lips moving without sound coming out" issue!)

I wonder if there is an easy way to resync the audio and video
(at least in recorded material?)

An A/V amp I was working with this morning actually has the ability to
add a delay to the sound to allow for delays in the signal processing
of the video...

 

[Don Y]

Hi Charlie,

An A/V amp I was working with this morning actually has the ability to
add a delay to the sound to allow for delays in the signal processing
of the video...

I'd have to start being more observant to see if the delay is
constant and present *throughout* the presentation; if it
creeps in gradually; or if some "event" causes the delay to
be introduced.

I just can't imagine how this can happen. I.e., "since the beginning",
film has used, e.g., clapperboards to address the audio/video sync
issue ("percussive event"). Suddenly, withthe advent of digital
coding, they decide to FORGET all of this history???

 

[RobertMacy]

Hi Charlie,



I'd have to start being more observant to see if the delay is
constant and present *throughout* the presentation; if it
creeps in gradually; or if some "event" causes the delay to
be introduced.

I just can't imagine how this can happen. I.e., "since the beginning",
film has used, e.g., clapperboards to address the audio/video sync
issue ("percussive event"). Suddenly, withthe advent of digital
coding, they decide to FORGET all of this history???

Shouldn't need clapers and such now with powerful software and huge
quantites of memory. just do some image processing and correlate to sound
entropy.

Where do you get the 'Spyder' color qualifier? How much?

 

[Don Y]

Hi RObert,

Shouldn't need clapers and such now with powerful software and huge
quantites of memory. just do some image processing and correlate to
sound entropy.

How does software know what "visual activities" correspond with
sounds? :<

Where do you get the 'Spyder' color qualifier? How much?

Long time ago -- I doubt *it* is still manufactured (though
probably other similar devices now exist -- with accompanying
software).

At the time, (~10 years ago?) IIRC, about $300-400.

 

[RobertMacy]

Hi RObert,



How does software know what "visual activities" correspond with
sounds? :<


Long time ago -- I doubt *it* is still manufactured (though
probably other similar devices now exist -- with accompanying
software).

At the time, (~10 years ago?) IIRC, about $300-400.

Long time ago?! Ten years ago is YESTERDAY! I have clothes older than you.

so doing a search for IIRC, I found a Korean Research Institute, Impedance
Institute Color Research, so thought they made your meter. ...until wiki
points out that iirc is an acronym for internet abbreviations!

can't find anything, but then again, I never could. I always ask Jeff
Liebermann, and somehow he does 'magic' searches. Finds EVERYTHING! for
example the free pixel recovery software website.

Right now leaning toward LG for its technical 'depth' plus made in Korea,
products made there I tend to trust a bit.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Robert,

On 9/22/2013 10:06 AM, RobertMacy wrote:

[attrs elided]

Long time ago?! Ten years ago is YESTERDAY!

For electronics -- esp PC-related -- it's the Stone Age! :>

I have clothes older than you.

Dunno. I remember where I was when JFK was shot, when the NBC
peacock got colored plumage, etc. ;-)

so doing a search for IIRC, I found a Korean Research Institute,
Impedance Institute Color Research, so thought they made your meter.
...until wiki points out that iirc is an acronym for internet
abbreviations!

Yes, sorry. If I Recall Correctly.

can't find anything, but then again, I never could. I always ask Jeff
Liebermann, and somehow he does 'magic' searches. Finds EVERYTHING! for
example the free pixel recovery software website.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2001/10/27/lcdcrtspyder

Article is dated 2001? So, I'm in the right ballpark.

Basically, it's just a large/diffuse "photocell" that sits
against the display (there are some mechanical changes that you
make to the sensor depending on whether you are using it with
a CRT or an LCD).

"Calibration software" then draws a big square (on which you position
the detector). Displays solid red for a while (10-15 seconds) while
it integrates light output striking the sensor. Then blue. White,
etc. Thereafter, uses these observations to tweek the drive to
the display for your application(s).

Without it (or something like it), you have to rely on proofs from
the "printer" (i.e., the print *shop*) to see what the actual colors
look like.

Printing "proofs" on your own color printer would require your
color printer to have known/calibrated characteristics. Scanning
photos to be included in print productions requires your *scanner*
to be "color corrected", etc.

I.e., for anything but a casual "neighborhood newsletter", you have
to take extra steps to ensure what you see *is* what you get!

Right now leaning toward LG for its technical 'depth' plus made in
Korea, products made there I tend to trust a bit.

As with everything, you can "get lucky" or "get screwed" -- regardless
of vendor, model, etc.

Find something (TV) that "fits your eyes" (and ears) and ignore all
the "technical reviews". I also distrust the "user reviews" -- a bunch
of generic Joe User's are going to give *me* advice? How do I know
what their qualifications, critical skills, etc. are??

I've also been unable to conclude whether comments tend to be
biased in favor or against (i.e., do more "happy customers"
leave comments? or, just the ones who are sufficiently pissed
off??)

We were lamenting how hard it was to find "good help" (around the
house), here. He (& wife) made an exuberant recommendation (which
startled us). No less than 10 minutes later, they were recounting
some of the screw ups THE FOLKS THEY HAD RECOMMENDED had made.

"WTF? You are *recommending* these people to me after all these
problems you experienced FIRST HAND?? Are you even LISTENING to
yourself??"

 

[Don Y]

On 9/22/2013 10:45 AM, Don Y wrote:

[Spyder calibrator]

Basically, it's just a large/diffuse "photocell" that sits
against the display (there are some mechanical changes that you
make to the sensor depending on whether you are using it with
a CRT or an LCD).

"Calibration software" then draws a big square (on which you position
the detector). Displays solid red for a while (10-15 seconds) while
it integrates light output striking the sensor. Then blue. White,
etc. Thereafter, uses these observations to tweek the drive to
the display for your application(s).

There is a more detailed review of an earlier model linked to that
page, as well:

<http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/colorvisionmonitorspyder/>

It has more detailed specifications along with examples of
how it is used, etc.

The Pantone color samples that come with it (like the "paint chips"
you bring home from a paint store when trying to decide on a color
to paint the living room walls) are actually useful in themselves
as you can flip through them to get an idea as to "which red"
you want to use for a title, etc. Instead of trying to adjust
a color dynamically, on the screen (with no idea of where you
ultimately want to "end up": brighter? darker? more bluish? etc)