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What would you call this?

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by Dave, Mar 13, 2008.

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  1. Dave

    Dave Guest

    I am in need of a solid state relay that latches upon reception of a
    positive-going pulse, and holds that state until the power to it is removed.
    Actually something that will provide either a logic 1 or a logic 0 for
    another device upon reception of said pulse, and hold that state until power
    is removed. What would that be called, and where should I look for it? Can
    it build it out of OR/AND gates, like a Johnson Counter? Or can it just
    buy it like I can buy a CD4017? (I think that's a 0-9 counter...)

    Thanks for any help.

    Dave
     
  2. Guest


    Transistor?
     
  3. Jamie

    Jamie Guest

    RS flip flop.
    or,
    if you're trying to power up something with a control lock relay..
    you can use a double pole relay. 1 pole is used to power the device for
    example and the other is used to latch it self on.

    But I don't know what you're trying to control?



    http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"
     
  4. Dave

    Dave Guest

    Well, a transistor will change if the input to it changes. I'm looking for
    something that locks on until the power to it is cut.

    Thanks,

    Dave
     
  5. Dave

    Dave Guest

    Hey Jamie,

    An RS flip-flop. Will have to check that out. I am already working with
    4027 JK flip-flops, so maybe I am missing the obvious...

    What I am trying to control is a 74HC4053, and whether it connects the A and
    B outputs to a logic 0 (a0/b0) or a logic 1 (a1/b1). Basically, whether it
    connects the J and K of a 4027 JK flip flop to ground or 5V. This would
    lock it into it's current state, or allow it to continue responding to the
    clock input.

    Thanks for the input. Much appreciated.

    Dave
     
  6. An SCR. Apply a control voltage, the "diode" conducts and stays in
    conduction until power is removed from the "diode". The control voltage
    can disappear as soon as it triggers the SCR, the SCR will continue
    to conduct until voltage is removed from the "diode" portion.

    If I recall properly, you can synthesize them with a pair of transistors.

    Michael
     
  7. Dave

    Dave Guest

    Aaahhh. Yes, I remember this from school. A circuit that stays on even you
    try to turn it off... That's what I need. An SCR. Will look into that.
    *Thank you, Michael.*

    Much appreciated.

    Dave
     
  8. Varactor

    Varactor Guest

    Look at this one shot:
    http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/4013oneshots.htm

    If you want it to accept just one trigger pulse only try a JK flip
    flop with k=0 and your trigger to J. If it powers up in an undermined
    state (I'm not sure if this is the case), hold k high temporarily with
    a capacitor to power and a resistor to ground, the power on reset time
    will be about RC.

    At least that's my first guess.

    Cheers
     
  9. Hammy

    Hammy Guest

    The thing about an SCR is it needs an intiateing current even the
    2n5060 needs about 20mA .I found it to be higher on the ones I have
    anyway.Then it will hold on as little as 5mA.If all thats okay then
    fine.

    I have a similiar dilema only for a zero crossing detector.I want it
    to latch when the detector senses the zero crossing. I'm looking at
    something like this.

    http://rocky.digikey.com/weblib/ST Micro/Web Data/74V1T77.pdf

    Cheap and tiny low power consumption.If you look you can probably find
    cheaper and lower power versions.

    Search for D-type transparent latches.

    Or depending on your application and what your willing to spend there
    are latching relays a little pricey though.
     
  10. Dave

    Dave Guest

    Aaah, yes. Very interesting, but I think what I am going to do is build the
    equivalant of an SCR out of transistors, as my electronics textbook
    describes. This will allow me (I think) to select the parameters I want and
    tailer them to my exact needs. Or at least that's the present idea. Thank
    you for this pointer however. I may yet end up using it.

    Take it easy...

    Dave
     
  11. Sam

    Sam Guest

    You can achieve that with a double pole relay, wiring the second switch
    into the coils path.
     
  12. ehsjr

    ehsjr Guest

    Gate current is no problem, at all. You can get sensitive gate
    SCRs that will trigger well below 1 mA. For example, the 2N5060
    mentioned in Hammy's post triggers at .2 mA (not 20 mA!)

    By all means, experiment with making your own from transistors.
    You can have fun, and learn that way. But there is no problem
    in getting one that will trigger at low current.

    Ed
     
  13. Hammy

    Hammy Guest

    Hi Ed

    I didnt say that the 2n5060 needs 20mA gate trigger .What I said is
    that it needs an intial 20mA AK current.This is written in the
    datasheet.From my experience with them they usually need a bit more.

    Maybe I should have been clearer the intiating current I'm refering to
    is the Anode Cathode current,not gate current.You have to look for it
    in the datasheet but its there.
     
  14. Dave

    Dave Guest

    Hmmm. What about a sensitive gate that triggers at (lets say) .2mA, with an
    AK current of similar proportions? What I am wanting to do is switch a
    couple of leads from +5V (very low current) to ground (essentially NO
    current) on a JK flip-flop, so that the clock is thereafter ignored and the
    Q and not-Q outputs remain unchanged. Any suggestions? Oh, and I need to
    do this with solid-state devices, not a coil-of-wire relay.

    Thanks,

    Dave
     
  15. ehsjr

    ehsjr Guest

    Hi Hammy,

    Well, that entry that has the words "initiating current"
    does not mean you *must* have 20 mA AK current. What it
    says is that *if* you had 20 mA AK current (and 7V) during
    the gate pulse, the device is guaranteed to turn on and
    hold at 5 mA (at 25C). It is sort of like a car manufacturer
    guaranteeing that the car you just bought will do at least
    20 miles per hour. :) The SCR will latch on with AK
    "initiating current" way below 20 mA.

    Do a test to see: put the 2N5060 in an LED circuit with
    a limiting resistor that guarantees sufficient holding
    current, and also guarantees well below 20 mA:

    +12---+---[1K]---[LED]---+
    | _|_
    [47K] \ /
    | ---
    | _|_ /|
    +------o o-------+ |
    |
    Gnd ----------------------+

    The pushbutton will send a ~255 uA pulse to the gate,
    and the 1K will limit the current to roughly 10 mA. You
    can substitute a 5K pot for the 1K to see how low you
    can make the AK current and still trigger the SCR. Find
    the point where it just starts to trigger, then measure
    the voltage across the pot & the pot resistance, and
    compute the current.

    What is far more important is the length of Dave's
    pulse. If it is too short, an SCR "solution" is not
    a solution at all. That may be influencing your
    observations, as well. You mentioned you were working
    with 0 crossing, so you are talking about small slices
    of time. The ap note referenced below discusses dv/dt,
    and a whole bunch of other stuff related to SCRs:

    http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Product_Catalogs/PowerThyristorApplicationNotes.pdf

    (Watch out for line wrap in the above.)
    There's more complexity to an SCR than meets the eye!

    Ed
     
  16. Bob Monsen

    Bob Monsen Guest


    You could build your own flip-flop out of two NPN transistors. Actually a
    'flop', because you'll never 'flip' it...

    5V ------------------o------.
    | |
    .-. .-.
    | | | |
    | | | |
    10k '-' '-' 10k
    | |
    | |
    .------------)------o------------------- out
    | o------)------------.
    IN | ___ |/ \| ___ |
    ---->|-o-|___|-o--| |--|___|---'
    100k | |> <| 100k
    --- | |
    --- '--o---'
    1nF | |
    | .-.
    | | | 1k
    | | |
    | '-'
    GND | |
    -----------------o-------'
    (created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)

    Just use a positive voltage spike on IN, and OUT will go from LOW to HIGH.

    You may not need the 1k resistor.

    Regards,
    Bob Monsen
     
  17. Hammy

    Hammy Guest

    I don't use SCR's that often.What I usually do is use NPN and PNP
    single die like the MBT3946 bias the NPN that bias's the PNP and
    latches the NPN.Cheap and small.

    I had some(2N5060) left over in my parts kit from school so I tried
    one in a Piezo buzzer cct. with some LED's. I found it wouldnt latch
    reliablily unless I had about 22mA load. The gate single was more then
    adequate 5V from an " AND" gate 20mA source/sink through a small RC
    low pass filter. No problem fireing it but it wouldnt latch without an
    addtional load.

    Heres the schematic

    http://i30.tinypic.com/s3n4hj.png

    I had to adjust R4 and add R5 for the SCR to latch. M1 IRF034 is
    really a Piezo buzzer,to lazy to make a proper part in capture.

    Oddily enough SCR's arent given that much coverage both in my school
    text's as well as the majority of other books I've found on the
    net.The appnote link you provided is exellent thank you.

    I'm considering the latch I mentioned earlier for the zero crossing
    detector, because it gives you the options of resetting without
    removing power.

    Sorry Dave didnt mean to hijack your thread.
     
  18. But what kind of current is the 2N5060 good for? I'm too lazy to look.
    One reason I suggested the original poster "synthesize" an scr is because
    it seems easier to find high current SCRs, indeed that tends to be
    where they are used, but for the original purpose it would be overkill.
    I wasn't thinking of their usefulness at low currents, but rather that
    their size would be more than desired.

    A device intended for lower current handling would presumably be more
    inclined to handle lower current levels. After all, if you normally
    want an SCR because it can switch high current levels, you aren't
    concerned about any "minimum" load that would be nearly invisible compared
    to the load you want to handle.

    Michael
     
  19. ehsjr

    ehsjr Guest

    Having seen the circuit, I'm not surprised. Try the simple
    circuit I posted. Then see if you can figure out what the
    essential difference is. Then, modify your circuit and enjoy
    it triggering and holding at well below 20 mA. The discovery
    is worth the effort!

    Ed
     
  20. ehsjr

    ehsjr Guest

    Not likely to find an SCR with a 200 uA holding current.
    The one we are discussing - 2N5060 - needs a minimum of
    5 mA to hold.
    You can use an SCR as long as you provide a path that
    will allow it to hold, like a resistor from SCR anode
    to the + rail.

    +5 -------[1K]-----------+----> To flip-flop
    _|_
    \ /
    ---
    /|
    Signal---[1K]-----+ |
    |
    Gnd ----------------------+


    But if you are already using flip flops,
    is there a reason not to use another ff?

    Ed
     
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