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What are you really asking for? What do you really want?

Y

Yzordderex

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and have come to the
conclusion (over and over again) that the people posting here asking
for help just don't give enough information to solve the problem.
What I usually see is one post generating many different solutions to
as many problems. I think what most would like to see here is a
well-defined problem, with one or two good solutions. And yes, if you
look at some of my old posts you may find me guilty as well.

When asking for design ideas I think it might help for you to assume
that you are the design guy and a customer is coming to you for the
design. Or vise- verse maybe. Imagine the types of questions that
you are going to ask your customer in order for you to complete the
design. These are the same questions that we would ask if we were
eyeball to eyeball with you.

I'd like to post a few questions here and perhaps others might like to
add to the list. I hope in the end this becomes a worthwhile
investment of time. There are bright engineers that hang here and I
hope this may help them to get the best information out. It takes a
little time and energy to answer the posts. More if they're
ill-defined. If the people asking make it easier to answer, we're all
better off.


1) Is this a homework assignment? (I don't really care, just like to
know.)

2) Is this design one-up for perhaps a piece of equiptment for your
lab, an experiment of some sort, or going to be mass produced?



regards,
Bob
N9NEO
 
W

Walter Harley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yzordderex said:
I'd like to post a few questions here and perhaps others might like to
add to the list.

Yes! Here's one I'd like to see added:

3) Do you intend sticking around long enough to read the responses to your
posting, and answer any follow-up questions?

It's aggravating to see how much time we spend speculating aimlessly about
what posters really meant, when the posters themselves seem to have long
since disappeared.
 
J

John Jardine

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yzordderex said:
I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and have come to the
conclusion (over and over again) that the people posting here asking
for help just don't give enough information to solve the problem.
What I usually see is one post generating many different solutions to
as many problems. I think what most would like to see here is a
well-defined problem, with one or two good solutions. And yes, if you
look at some of my old posts you may find me guilty as well.

When asking for design ideas I think it might help for you to assume
that you are the design guy and a customer is coming to you for the
design. Or vise- verse maybe. Imagine the types of questions that
you are going to ask your customer in order for you to complete the
design. These are the same questions that we would ask if we were
eyeball to eyeball with you.

I'd like to post a few questions here and perhaps others might like to
add to the list. I hope in the end this becomes a worthwhile
investment of time. There are bright engineers that hang here and I
hope this may help them to get the best information out. It takes a
little time and energy to answer the posts. More if they're
ill-defined. If the people asking make it easier to answer, we're all
better off.


1) Is this a homework assignment? (I don't really care, just like to
know.)

2) Is this design one-up for perhaps a piece of equiptment for your
lab, an experiment of some sort, or going to be mass produced?



regards,
Bob
N9NEO

N) For helping to home-in on level of any reply, please grade existing
knowledge on a 0-5 scale.

Personally I have an (aquired!) taste for the ill defined questions. (The
kind of thing that has been elevated to a surreal art form by Boki :).
They appeal to some kind of low level hunting instinct and it's interesting
to also see how others sniff the clues out and offer in response a diversity
of useful 'takes' on the subject matter. Hopefully the original OP gets
something out of the somewhat (inevitably) wide ranging answers but more
selfishly I get something out of them as well.
The 100.0% on-topic questions and answers tend to be a little bit stifling.

As Walter says though, many of the OP's don't appear to hang around. It's as
if they're a bit embarrassed at the level of response to their question and
feel they may be bogged down in a technical quagmire if they try and clarify
the original question or respond to points raised. If they just dropped a
line in such as, "thanks ... a lot to digest ... " it would be enough to let
the responders know the effort had been worthwhile yet allow them to freely
ruminate on the now burgeoning OT discussions.
regards
john-
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and have come to the
conclusion (over and over again) that the people posting here asking
for help just don't give enough information to solve the problem.

I suspect that many actually don't understand the problem, and many
others can't express it meaningfully.

It would be nice, too, if people would give a bit of context... tell
us what they're actually working on.

A lot of questions don't have short answers, like "how can I build my
own cheap, simple communications satellite?"

We could standardize on a few stock initial replies, and save a lot of
time:

a) DETAILS!

b) CONTEXT!

c) NUMBERS!

d) USE GOOGLE!

e) GO TO ENGINEERING SCHOOL!


John
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Walter Harley said:
It's aggravating to see how much time we spend speculating aimlessly about
what posters really meant, when the posters themselves seem to have long
since disappeared.

Absolutely right. IMO not ony aggravating but rude too.

Here's one of many examples, from two years ago in
alt.binaries.schematics.electronic, illustrating both the definition
and courtesy issues:

OP
--
Please could someone send me a circuit diagram for a simple car
alarm/immobilizer?

MY REPLY (1 of several same day)
--------------------------------
You'll need to be more specific about your requirements. One man's
'simple' is another's 'complex'. For example:

1. What output? Horn pulsing? Siren? With/without headlights flashing?
Tape recording ("Help! Help! This car is being broken into!")

2. Is on/off switch to be inside? (Outside is simpler, but obviously
less secure and exposed to weather.) If you want to switch it on while
still inside the car, presumably you want an exit delay?

3. Should it protect boot and bonnet (trunk and hood?) as well as all
doors?

4. What form should legitimate entry take: short delay, to allow you
to switch off before output alarm starts? or hidden switch outside? or
remote control via IR/ultrasonics/RC?

5. Should intrusion be detected only by any door (trunk or hood)
openeing? (I assume you definitely don't want internal ultrasonic
movement detection?)

6. If so, are there existing microswitches fitted? Do they operate an
indoor courtesy light? (And can you get access to its wiring?)

7. How long should alarm output last?

8. What do you want to do in event that a door (or trunk or hood) is
left open by an intruder? Should alarm immediately sound again, or
what?

Never heard another thing from poster. (Small print: That *could* have
been my ISP, or down to me in some way. So abject apologies to poster
if that proves to be so. I checked as exhaustively as I could before
sending this...)

And I've frequently posted a complete schematic and never been sure
the OP has even seen it.

OK, there's pleasure in responding anyway, and in discussing and
digressing with other contributors. But, hey, unlike audio amps, this
is one place where FEEDBACK is good!
 
W

Walter Harley

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin said:
We could standardize on a few stock initial replies, and save a lot of
time:

a) DETAILS!

b) CONTEXT!

c) NUMBERS!

d) USE GOOGLE!

e) GO TO ENGINEERING SCHOOL!

Hey, there it is, the s.e.d FAQ, all done and ready to post! :)
 
N

N. Thornton

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin said:
On 17 Sep 2003 14:16:26 -0700, [email protected] (Yzordderex)
wrote:
I suspect that many actually don't understand the problem, and many
others can't express it meaningfully.

It would be nice, too, if people would give a bit of context... tell
us what they're actually working on.

A lot of questions don't have short answers, like "how can I build my
own cheap, simple communications satellite?"

We could standardize on a few stock initial replies, and save a lot of
time:

a) DETAILS!

b) CONTEXT!

c) NUMBERS!

d) USE GOOGLE!

e) GO TO ENGINEERING SCHOOL!


John


Hi

Probably my most common question at a guess is 'whats your app?'. This
really does make all the difference in most cases.

But /why/ dont folk give the necessary info? I think its usually
because they have no idea what the necessary info is. They know so
little about the subject that they can't put themselves in the
designers shoes. I have the same experience when I ask about things in
ngs I know nothing about: only when the qs are asked do I know what
info to give. This is why I tend to often give the simplest solution
here: suggesting building a SMPS tends to fall on unable ears. After
all, if they knew how to make an SMPS, they wouldn't be needing to
find out that they needed an SMPS. Hence I rarely suggest them.

I get teh feeling I'm echoing whats already been said.

Is there an FAQ with these point in? One we could point folks to for
the sort of info required.

What makes me mildly curious is those questions that dont make any
sense. I wonder who posts them, why, and why they think they'll get a
response.


Regards, NT
 
G

Gary Peek

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yzordderex said:
I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and have come to the
conclusion (over and over again) that the people posting here asking
for help just don't give enough information to solve the problem.

I don't recall seeing a sci.electronics.design FAQ, but could
have missed it. In any case, a FAQ needs to be posted often
enough that the casual reader of the newsgroup has a chance
to see it and make use of it.

I don't know much of the history of this NG and its FAQ.
Anyone know anyhting about it?

Gary Peek mailto:p[email protected]
Industrologic, Inc. http://www.industrologic.com
Phone: (636) 723-4000 Fax: (636) 724-2288
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Terry said:
Absolutely right. IMO not ony aggravating but rude too.

Right- you should check some of the other forums where some clueless
third world type will write: send me everything you have on HDTV
electronics, circuit schematics, construction drawings, and explanations
of all theory involved.
The only people worth taking seriously are the ones who have developed a
working knowledge of some other applied discipline and are crossing into
electronics for some kind of assist. The others are mostly rejects
looking for a "free lunch"- it's up to you whether to answer or not. The
Australians are not worth answering under any circumstance, they have
their own newsgroup, let them stay there.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't recall seeing a sci.electronics.design FAQ, but could
have missed it. In any case, a FAQ needs to be posted often
enough that the casual reader of the newsgroup has a chance
to see it and make use of it.

I don't know much of the history of this NG and its FAQ.
Anyone know anyhting about it?

Gary Peek mailto:p[email protected]
Industrologic, Inc. http://www.industrologic.com
Phone: (636) 723-4000 Fax: (636) 724-2288


Who controls FAQs in an unmoderated group anyhow?

John
 
R

Roy McCammon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yzordderex said:
hope this may help them to get the best information out. It takes a
little time and energy to answer the posts.

a lot of time and energy
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Who controls FAQs in an unmoderated group anyhow?

John

Whosoever writes them- effectively the copyright holder. In another
n.g. I'm familar with there is a FAQ, which has not been updated since
1997, and addendums to that FAQ (the original author retains ownership
and has not passed the torch to anyone else). Of course anyone can
write a competing FAQ, but once it gets up into to dozens (or
hundreds) of pages, few to none will bother.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Whosoever writes them- effectively the copyright holder. In another
n.g. I'm familar with there is a FAQ, which has not been updated since
1997, and addendums to that FAQ (the original author retains ownership
and has not passed the torch to anyone else). Of course anyone can
write a competing FAQ, but once it gets up into to dozens (or
hundreds) of pages, few to none will bother.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Cool. Should I write one, and submit it for comments?

John
 
I

Ian Stirling

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yzordderex said:
I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and have come to the
conclusion (over and over again) that the people posting here asking
for help just don't give enough information to solve the problem.
1) Is this a homework assignment? (I don't really care, just like to
know.)
I'd alter this.
1) Why? Homework; I need one; I want to learn how to build; ...
2) Is this design one-up for perhaps a piece of equiptment for your
lab, an experiment of some sort, or going to be mass produced?

3) How much can you spend?
4) Can you Solder, Etch, do deep submicron UV photolithography.

--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:[email protected] | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
<Squawk> Pieces of eight!
<Squawk> Pieces of eight!
<Squawk> Pieces of eight!
<Squawk> Pieces of eight!
<Squawk> Pieces of eight!
<Squawk> Pieces of nine!
<SYSTEM HALTED: parroty error!>
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yzordderex said:
I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and have come to the
conclusion (over and over again) that the people posting here asking
for help just don't give enough information to solve the problem.

Or they have an idea about what they want but not skill in formulating a
coherent set of requirements. Maybe they think we're mind readers.

This problem isn't confined to this newsgroup. At an outfit I used to
work for, I one received a request to develop a piece of test equipment
described as an "AC-DC power system tester". What the customer wanted
was a half million dollar piece of automated test equipment. I was
toying with the idea of delivering a test lamp attached to a pair of
probes.

Quite often, a customer doesn't know what questions need answering. In
this case, an engineer needs to respond with the appropriate questions.
As others have observed, the original poster often disappears, probably
lurking in anticipation of the delivery of a completed design.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cool. Should I write one, and submit it for comments?
John

Sure, if you're in an industrious mood...

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
G

Gary Peek

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote (about sci.electronics.design FAQ):
Cool. Should I write one, and submit it for comments?

John, if you want the work involved, please do! (I must admit
to having an ever-so-slight urge to do this myself, but I'd
rather let you.) :)

From: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/sci/sci.electronics.design.html
"sci/electronics-search-faq
Subject: Electronics Search FAQ - Pointer
Maintainer: [email protected]"

I have an email out to Jason to see if he is still doing this
work. I'll let you know what I find out.

Now, the real question is whether this should be a FAQ for
this newsgroup only, or for the other sci.electronics groups.
Here is a list, but you probably already know this:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/Newspages/sci.electronics.html

(If you do this I already have a few LED FAQ links for you,
since LEDs provoke often asked questions.)

FYI
The Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ has its own web site:
http://www.repairfaq.org/


Gary Peek mailto:p[email protected]
Industrologic, Inc. http://www.industrologic.com
Phone: (636) 723-4000 Fax: (636) 724-2288
 
B

Ben Pope

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
As others have observed, the original poster often disappears, probably
lurking in anticipation of the delivery of a completed design.

....quite often to their mailbox.

When the poster is too lazy to even be bothered to check back here, and
often outright says so, that annoys me. People here spend hours of their
time helping others, for free, and they can't even be bothered to check
back. Grrr...

:p

Ben
 
N

N. Thornton

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul Hovnanian P.E. said:
Quite often, a customer doesn't know what questions need answering. In
this case, an engineer needs to respond with the appropriate questions.
As others have observed, the original poster often disappears, probably
lurking in anticipation of the delivery of a completed design.


Or possibly recoiling in horror at the mind swamping complexity of
answers to what they thought was really quite a simple question. Maybe
they just very quickly realise they haven't got a hope in hell.


Imagine it, Joe Average comes in and wants to know how to make an LED
bikelight. The unstated questions in JA's mind are: where do I get the
LEDs, which way round do I put them, and do I have to have a fuse or
something in there.

Our first response begins with calculations of Vf, If, mcds, beam
angle, battery life, and the law relating to LEd lights.

Our second reply says a SMPSU is needed, here are some of the basic
calculations you need to design one, and here's the link to a good
circuit, which of course you'll need to tweak.

Reply 3 argues with reply 2 and so on. I can see why they dont reply
:)


Regards, NT
 
M

Mark Zenier

Jan 1, 1970
0
Whosoever writes them- effectively the copyright holder. In another
n.g. I'm familar with there is a FAQ, which has not been updated since
1997, and addendums to that FAQ (the original author retains ownership
and has not passed the torch to anyone else). Of course anyone can
write a competing FAQ, but once it gets up into to dozens (or
hundreds) of pages, few to none will bother.

TAKE MY FAQ. PLEEEEEESSSSSEEEEEE.

ftp://u/m/mzenier/seguide9706.txt

(Also, the creation discussions are in sercreate.txt and segcreate.txt
at the same site).

Mark Zenier [email protected] Washington State resident
 
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