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Wayne and the amazing Variable Load

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George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
What is a variable load.

This is a load which varies and can describe a light globe.

The load of a light globe is varied by turning it on or off.

It is a large variation as it goes from 0 to 100 %.

In fact all loads in a system will have the same parameters, 0 to 100 %.

Now Wayne says that to design a system you need to measure what is used
today to build a system for tomorrow.

Well let¹s see what can happen with such a system.

One house...Two people...total load 5kWh/day

Appliances in the house have a total potential of 10kWh/day under normal
use conditions.

Things run just fine for several weeks.

Auntie Agnes shows up with her three kids, the twins still in diapers,
and yes she still uses real diapers. Four loads of laundry a day, every
day for the four weeks of her visit.

Little Wayne who is four is parked in front of the TV for hours of
entertainment every morning and afternoon. When he is not watching
cartoons on Sky TV he is in and out of the house every five minutes,
leaving the door open every time.

Bottles of formula are in the microwave, morning, noon and twice over
night. Little Wayne won¹t sleep without a light on as well as leaving
lights on in every room he enters, day or night.

Impossible? Not by any means.

The chances of the system working for the four weeks?

I know which way I would bet.

Variable loads? Yep. They vary right up to 100%.

Design for 50% of the potential load and you will have 50% of the system
you need.

What to do, eh?

Well if you want a system that works you need to size it fo the load
that is possible. This means if the dishwasher has a max rating of X
watts and you know that it will run for an hour then the figure you use
for your sizing is X times one hour (X Whs) for that appliance.

There are people who will say ³But I never run it at its maximum². This
can be translated as ³I bought the wrong one².

Anyone can design a system for the wishful.

The thing is anyone can design a system (except Wayne apparently) to
handle the extras that crop up with a total disregard for wishes.

You only have to decide what sort of system you want.

This means that you have to know what you want to run.

And that means you have to be honest with yourself at every stage of the
project.

If you can¹t afford to run an appliance at its maximum the chances are
that you can¹t afford to run it at half either.

I know that a lot of you don¹t want to hear this sort of thing. Thing is
though, that when people start telling other people what they want to
hear you get a war over Weapons of Mass Destruction.

If you can¹t afford to run that dishwasher at its maximum buy a pair of
rubber gloves honestly rather than lie to yourself about only using the
air dry setting on the DW.

There is nothing more embarissing than a blackout during Christmas
dinner while bragging to the whole family about your solar power system.

This has been a public service announcment from that bastard in the bush.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well if you want a system that works you need to size it fo the load
that is possible. This means if the dishwasher has a max rating of X
watts and you know that it will run for an hour then the figure you use
for your sizing is X times one hour (X Whs) for that appliance.

There are people who will say ³But I never run it at its maximum². This
can be translated as ³I bought the wrong one².

Hmm... so in the case of say, a washer/dryer, you would multiply the
max load rating (dryer elements, drum motor, pump motor, and blower
motor all on) times the cycle time (perhaps two hours), even though
the dryer elements total on-time might only be 15 minutes, and the
draw for the other 105 minutes was only a fraction of the max? Sounds
very, uh, intuitive <snorf>. And should a normal person actually use
the correct figure taken by direct measurement, then that person
bought the wrong machine? Umm umm umm.
If you can¹t afford to run an appliance at its maximum the chances are
that you can¹t afford to run it at half either.

So if you own a computer with a 350W power supply, and can't afford to
run it at 350 Watts, then chances are that you can't afford to run at
175 Watts? I guess it follows that you wouldn't be able to run it at
its normal load of say, 70 Watts either then, right? No wonder you
don't own an energy meter. Hell, you don't need any tools at all with
that "design" strategy.
I know that a lot of you don¹t want to hear this sort of thing. Thing is
though, that when people start telling other people what they want to
hear you get a war over Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Well, in this thread several people have told you a whole bunch of
stuff you *didn't* want to hear. So if your logic holds, that should
be the end of these WMD wars.
This has been a public service announcment from that bastard in the bush.

The bush!!! With a telephone line and an ISP? LOL At least you got
the bastard part right, although pigheaded nitwit is the more
appropriate term IMO.

Wayne
 
M

Mel

Jan 1, 1970
0
All this ignores the poor sod who ONLY EVER washes their clothes at
40°C - but can only find washing machines that propose cycles at 90°,
60°, 40°, 30° and cold water.


So what do you do - not wash? Plan your system for a capcaity that will
never be used?

Sometimes the buyer is way ahead of the manufacturer.

Mel

George Ghio a écrit :
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Variable loads? Yep. They vary right up to 100%.

Design for 50% of the potential load and you will have 50% of the system
you need.

What to do, eh?

Well if you want a system that works you need to size it fo the load
that is possible. This means if the dishwasher has a max rating of X
watts and you know that it will run for an hour then the figure you use
for your sizing is X times one hour (X Whs) for that appliance.

And just how many hours a day do you figure the dishwasher is run in your
design's George? It's beginning to sound as if you are assuming one hour.
Or one load per day.
There are people who will say ³But I never run it at its maximum². This
can be translated as ³I bought the wrong one².

Are you even *suggesting* that the 'maximum' of an appliance like a
dishwasher is to have it run 24/7?? If not, then how do you determine the
'maximum' for a dishwasher, laundry, or TV?? You are either assuming 24/7
and sizing *way* too big, or you are *assuming* some number of hours per
day.

What do you base your *assumption* on?? The manufacturer's label of
'typical'? The government compliance label that is based on a standardized
test? Your 'intuition'??

Just tell us exactly what you use to determine the number of loads run in a
dishwasher or clothes washing machine in a fixed time period such as a week.
If not customer's direct measurement, then what? intuition?

This means that you have to know what you want to run.

And how exactly do you determine this? An inciteful interview with the
customer? Asking the customer to keep detailed logs of each appliance's
usage and then multiply by a 'safety factor' for the unexpected arrival of
'aunt Agnes'??

I'm sure the number of hours that a particular customer uses an appliance is
*not* found on the compliance label or the manufacturer's web site. Yet
this is your story??
And that means you have to be honest with yourself at every stage of the
project.

If you can¹t afford to run an appliance at its maximum the chances are
that you can¹t afford to run it at half either.

Just what is 'maximum' for an intermittent duty appliance such as
refrigerator or dishwasher? Surely you don't assume the nameplate power
level for 24/7. So you must have some estimate of the number of loads run
in the dishwasher at its highest setting. How do you arrive at your
estimated number of loads per week?

If you can¹t afford to run that dishwasher at its maximum buy a pair of
rubber gloves honestly rather than lie to yourself about only using the
air dry setting on the DW.

The label will tell you the maximum *power* a dishwasher will draw, but that
tells you very little about how much *energy* is needed to wash dishes for a
week. The dishwasher doesn't draw 'maximium' power throught the whole cycle
either. And the number of loads per week?

Oh, wait, according to you, if the customer doesn't need to run it exactly
once each day, 'they bought the wrong appliance'. Nothing wrong with your
system design, the customer bought the wrong appliance. Until 'Aunt Agnes'
shows up. Now the customer needs to go out and buy a new dishwasher because
otherwise they would need to run their old one one and a half times a day.
And of course, your system isn't 'designed' for the new appliance so again
you are blameless.

It seems you take the label plate rating of appliances and *guess* at how
many hours a week they run. That sort of 'design' just begs to have a big
fat safety margin thrown in to avoid mistakes in your guesses. And you call
that part of your expertise, 'intuition'.

daestrom
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Why. If your whatever draws a maximum of a thousand watts then that is
the number used in your sizing.

Anything else is just sizing for yesterday. Tommorow may be the same and
quite often is. OTOH it is just as often not the same. When you design
for yesterday you really notice when today is different.

I am not telling you that you have to follow this design philosophy. You
get to choose.

Your system, your choice.

Now the next post in answer to mine is Waynes. He will have a lot of
nonsense to say. This is ok when you realise that he copied a system
that he thought woulld work for him. Then had to double it to make it
work.

He claims to have two days autonomy. A a reduced rate, but cannot tell
us what that rate is because he has mystical variable loads.

I have already pointed out that the very most he could support for two
days of autonomy is 11.5 kWhs/day and still avoid damage to his
batteries.

Even at this rate I supect that the inverter would shut down from loe
voltage after a day and a half due to voltage drop at that level of
discharge and system inefficiences.

Any way, if you think I am wrong just ignore what I said.

After all it is your choice, your system.

George
 
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George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
Hmm... so in the case of say, a washer/dryer, you would multiply the
max load rating (dryer elements, drum motor, pump motor, and blower
motor all on) times the cycle time (perhaps two hours), even though
the dryer elements total on-time might only be 15 minutes, and the
draw for the other 105 minutes was only a fraction of the max? Sounds
very, uh, intuitive <snorf>. And should a normal person actually use
the correct figure taken by direct measurement, then that person
bought the wrong machine? Umm umm umm.

No wayne. If you want ot measure theuse with a meter, measure the
appliance on its highest setting.
So if you own a computer with a 350W power supply, and can't afford to
run it at 350 Watts, then chances are that you can't afford to run at
175 Watts? I guess it follows that you wouldn't be able to run it at
its normal load of say, 70 Watts either then, right? No wonder you
don't own an energy meter. Hell, you don't need any tools at all with
that "design" strategy.

Well my first iMac drew 150 watts max. and drew in excess of 450 watts
to start.

I replaced it with a new iMac which uses 130 watts max. to run.

This is a variable load in that as a word processor it uses a bit less
than 60 W. I use my computer between one and six hours a day. This might
involve the burning of CDs for the afternoon or just writing. I don't
think about the energy use much because my ystem was designed for this
type of use from the beginning.
Well, in this thread several people have told you a whole bunch of
stuff you *didn't* want to hear. So if your logic holds, that should
be the end of these WMD wars.

How many of the nations children have died for that lie, just to keep
oil in your car.
The bush!!! With a telephone line and an ISP? LOL At least you got
the bastard part right, although pigheaded nitwit is the more
appropriate term IMO.

I told you before that I have it on good athority that I am in fact a
"dead set ****"

Even we who live in the bush can have a phone and ISP. The land line is
shit as would be expected and no hope as yet for broadband. But then my
ISP is a good and reliable provider and I manage.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
You suprise me daestrom. I had no idea that you were such a pedent.

Most people know how often they do their dishes, laundry or watch the TV.

Although you do have to be careful to ask the right question. One person
when asked how many hours he watched the TV said two - three hours a day.

When asked how many hours a day the TV was on he said between eight and
twelve hours.

He liked to listen to it.

As for your comments, well what can I say? Total drivel comes to mind.

Every customer is different, has different habits and lifestyles.

I talk to them. For as much as five hours for a typical interview.

And if all else fails I email the manufacturer. It really is astounding
what they know about their products.

In the end I design them a system that works.

Maybe you need to develope your people skills.
 
A

Anthony Matonak

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio wrote:
....
Maybe you need to develope your people skills.

George, didn't you start this thread, unprovoked, simply to bash
someone? Is that a good example of people skills?

Anthony
 
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George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anthony Matonak said:
George Ghio wrote:
...

George, didn't you start this thread, unprovoked, simply to bash
someone? Is that a good example of people skills?

Anthony

In the post you have quoted me from, who did I bash please?

Which part do you object to?

While I admit to a tendancy to the dark side of the force I thought this
was quite a restrained answer to what was seemed to be a deliberate
mis-understanding of what I said with the intent to provoke.




You suprise me daestrom. I had no idea that you were such a pedent.

Most people know how often they do their dishes, laundry or watch the TV.

Although you do have to be careful to ask the right question. One person
when asked how many hours he watched the TV said two - three hours a day.

When asked how many hours a day the TV was on he said between eight and
twelve hours.

He liked to listen to it.

As for your comments, well what can I say? Total drivel comes to mind.

Every customer is different, has different habits and lifestyles.

I talk to them. For as much as five hours for a typical interview.

And if all else fails I email the manufacturer. It really is astounding
what they know about their products.

In the end I design them a system that works.

Maybe you need to develope your people skills.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
No wayne. If you want ot measure theuse with a meter, measure the
appliance on its highest setting.

What rubbish. Many appliances have settings for extreme cases - for
instance, pot scrubber cycles on dishwashers, and long drying time on
dryers. You would have people pretend that every load of dishes is a
batch of calcified pots, and every load of underwear needs as much
drying time as blankets.
Well my first iMac drew 150 watts max. and drew in excess of 450 watts
to start.

I replaced it with a new iMac which uses 130 watts max. to run.

This is a variable load in that as a word processor it uses a bit less
than 60 W. I use my computer between one and six hours a day. This might
involve the burning of CDs for the afternoon or just writing. I don't
think about the energy use much because my ystem was designed for this
type of use from the beginning.

Congratulations for writing an argument against your own position. You
have claimed that one needs to design according to max load, in which
case your own setup would have been sized to supply 450W for 6 hours a
day, for the computer alone. That's about 3 times your total
production. You might also take note that things cannot draw 150W max,
*and* "450W to start". Not to mention that you could have purchased a
case of Kill a Watts for less than the premium you paid to be a
Macsnob.
How many of the nations children have died for that lie, just to keep
oil in your car.

I don't know, but one was too many. On that point we agree, and even
though it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand,
should any protest group be looking for a volunteer to spend weeks in
a treetop or chained to railway tracks, I'll be happy to recommend
you. There's your green light to finally claim earning a referral from
your newsgroup shenanigans.
I told you before that I have it on good athority that I am in fact a
"dead set ****"

It's refreshing see you being forthright for a change. Your PR
strategist might consider something easier for his next career...
septic tank pumping perhaps.
Even we who live in the bush can have a phone and ISP. The land line is
shit as would be expected and no hope as yet for broadband. But then my
ISP is a good and reliable provider and I manage.

In Oz, doesn't "the bush" denote a remote area? Yet I'm picturing you
in what we call a subdivision of ranchettes. Another pioneer,
disgruntled about suffering the dual hardships of cold pizza
deliveries and slow dialup apparently.

Wayne
 
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wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
You suprise me daestrom. I had no idea that you were such a pedent.


Maybe you need to develope your people skills.

Parhaps you could write a booke on that subjact as well. It might be a
hot seller in some alternate dimensione.

Wayne
 
A

Anthony Matonak

Jan 1, 1970
0
George said:
In the post you have quoted me from, who did I bash please?

How about Wayne? Do you see the Subject line?
Were you not the author of the subject line?
Which part do you object to?

The part I quoted. Where you wrote...
"Maybe you need to develope your people skills."

Ok, since you make a point of asking, I do object to the "technical"
part of the original message as well since it was complete blithering
drivel. I didn't feel the need to point this out at the time because
a-it's blatantly drivel, b-others have already pointed out this out.
Since the insults and "technical" part, combined, make the entire of the
original message, I therefore object to the entire original message.
While I admit to a tendancy to the dark side of the force I thought this
was quite a restrained answer to what was seemed to be a deliberate
mis-understanding of what I said with the intent to provoke.

George,
Didn't you start this thread?
Were you provoked into writing that original message?
Didn't you insult Wayne more than once in that original post?
Wasn't the purpose of the original post to simply bash Wayne?
Do you feel that message, and the ones that follow, are a good examples
of people skills?

Maybe I could sum up those questions in a couple of lines... Something
like, "George, didn't you start this thread, unprovoked, simply to bash
someone? Is that a good example of people skills?"

Then again, why repeat myself?

Anthony
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
You suprise me daestrom. I had no idea that you were such a pedent.

Not to be pedantic, but the correct spelling is 'pedant'. ;-)
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pedant&x=14&y=11
Most people know how often they do their dishes, laundry or watch the TV.

And some will say things like, "Oh, about two to three hours a day, except
on Thursdays, that's bowling night. Oh, and on Wednesday I try to catch
'xx', unless it's a re-run. Then if there's a good movie to watch on HBO, I
might stay up late on Saturday......"

Real accurate that. Might as well just stick with your own guess and
multiply by a safety factor of two. That way you can over-size the system
and claim it works because of 'proper' design.
As for your comments, well what can I say? Total drivel comes to mind.

I notice that whenever someone catches you in some obvious mistakes, you
revert to insults and changing the subject. Tells us more about you than
your post's actual content.
Every customer is different, has different habits and lifestyles.

I talk to them. For as much as five hours for a typical interview.

And if they still don't know the answers to your questions? Just 'grill'
them some more and break out the 'rubber hose'?? Or just drag out the
interview and bill them for the time? Why not install a few logging
meters (such as KAW), and come back in two weeks or a month? Saves them
time, saves you time. More accurate results.
And if all else fails I email the manufacturer. It really is astounding
what they know about their products.

Of course, after all, they built them. Now, if they could tell you all the
ways and frequencies their products are used, you would have the second half
of the equation. You know the one I'm talking about, "Energy used = Power *
Time".

daestrom
 
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George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
[QUOTE="Anthony Matonak said:
In the post you have quoted me from, who did I bash please?

How about Wayne? Do you see the Subject line?
Were you not the author of the subject line?[/QUOTE]

Ok. The suject line is correct. It is in response to Waynes assertions
about vairiable loads. Which are of course poppycock.

All loads are variable. Even if they only vary between on and off.

All loads also vary in length of time used.

These are two different paramaters and should not be confused.

The first should be noted in the energy audit at the maximum draw
possible.(Watts)

The second as the customers use.(Time)

The combination of the two gives us Watt hours.

The load may be used for 6 hours hours a week acording to the customer.
It may be used ten hours next week or for the next ten weeks. This is a
variable load after all. Circumstances change.

IF the appliance was entered into the audit at its maximum draw then you
have a good chance that the system will handle the possable variations.

The system will also handle incedentle loads that were not accounted for.
As an example a friend shows up for a visit. His son needs the use of a
ventalator for a health problem. This runs for several hours a day. Was
never accounted for in the audit. The system still copes.

It happens. Family and friends who live in a mains connected house in
the city come and visit. We get overseas visitors who come and stay for
weeks.

My system hndles the lot. I did not have to double it at any time. All
my loads are variable and I know the load used for my five days autonomy.
The part I quoted. Where you wrote...
"Maybe you need to develope your people skills."

It could just be that this is true as well.

When I go to a potential customer I spend three quarters or so of an
hour asking he expected questions. These are the black and white sort of
questions about what they run, for how long, what do they want.

This is the point most designers seem to stop. This leads to poor design
standards and a black nd white system.

It is at this point that I start my real design work. It is invariabl
that the customer will offer a cup uf what ever brown liquid is on offer.

So as we sit sipping I talk about lifestyle and what I do, what others
have done, what is possible. Hopes and wishes for the future. Children
and pets. Momentous events in our lives.

This adds a glorious amount of colour to the black and white picture.

It also separates what the custome thinks is a correct answer to the
black and white questions from what they really want.

The result is a system that fits like a glove. With out, I might add,
having to be doubled.
Ok, since you make a point of asking, I do object to the "technical"
part of the original message as well since it was complete blithering
drivel. I didn't feel the need to point this out at the time because
a-it's blatantly drivel, b-others have already pointed out this out.
Since the insults and "technical" part, combined, make the entire of the
original message, I therefore object to the entire original message.

If you object to the technical part you can of course try to prove it
wrong.
George,
Didn't you start this thread?
Yes

Were you provoked into writing that original message?
Yes

Didn't you insult Wayne more than once in that original post?
No

Wasn't the purpose of the original post to simply bash Wayne?
No

Do you feel that message, and the ones that follow, are a good examples
of people skills?

Oh yes. It tells the truth about design. I don't lie to people. I spend
a lot of time breaking bad news to people who have problems designed and
installed by nit-wits. I hate it. Some fool designs a system that has no
hope of working to the expectations of the consumer. Then I get called
and have to tell some poor bastard that they need to virtually scrap
what they have and start over. Oh we salvage what we can, sure. But it
is never a lot.
Maybe I could sum up those questions in a couple of lines... Something
like, "George, didn't you start this thread, unprovoked, simply to bash
someone? Is that a good example of people skills?"

You could. OF course it would be incorrect
Then again, why repeat myself?

You did.


George
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Snip the drivel
In Oz, doesn't "the bush" denote a remote area? Yet I'm picturing you
in what we call a subdivision of ranchettes. Another pioneer,
disgruntled about suffering the dual hardships of cold pizza
deliveries and slow dialup apparently.

In your dreams mate. If I want a pizza I either have to make it myself
or drive two hours to meet the delivery guy on the road.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
Parhaps you could write a booke on that subjact as well. It might be a
hot seller in some alternate dimensione.

Wayne

I did. It was.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
In your dreams mate. If I want a pizza I either have to make it myself
or drive two hours to meet the delivery guy on the road.

I notice you didn't say how far you are from town. What a surprise.
Let's see, two hours, at say, 40 mph, 80 miles or more to the road,
much farther to civilization. Yet they ran a phone line all that way
into the remote bush for you? Makes as much sense as anything else
you've written in this thread I suppose.

I'm thinking a whole bunch of Ghios and Murphys, perhaps 5 acre
parcels, each place named rancho-somethingorother, probably less than
a couple of miles to the power line. Out in the bush indeed.

Wayne
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
The first should be noted in the energy audit at the maximum draw
possible.(Watts)

An audit is the part where you *measure* the consumption. An estimate
is something made up of (ideally) direct measurements where possible,
and best guesses for the rest. Bullshit is when you can't or won't
make the direct measurements, yet call the result an "audit" in order
to make it sound better than it is.
My system hndles the lot.

For starters, the bulk of your loads are on propane. With ~1 kWh per
day on the electrical side, should you be willing to forgo all your
normal loads in favor of supplying visiting relatives with the use of
TV and computer, they may indulge all of about 8 hours per day. That
assumes they're OK with hanging clothes on the line, can do without
hair dryers, and that they don't mind firing up the generator for
*anything* over a few hundred Watts. Any houseful of relatives who'd
considers that a "handled" situation for weeks at a time, is a patient
lot. And masochists if they go the duration without earplugs.
Oh yes. It tells the truth about design.

The thread is only useful because of other contributors' corrections
to your nonsense.

Wayne
 
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George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Charles Foot said:
Haahaha, good on ya George.... like you if I want a pizza I either have
to make it myself, or jump on a boat and spend 4 hours getting to
Auckland or catch a plane which is only 20 minutes or so. Either way,
it's a bloody expensive pizza! Yes, we do actually have phone lines here
on Great Barrier Island, via a radio link to the mainland; there's a two
to three year waiting list for a connection in spite of the fact that
there are only 300 address on the island, and if you can connect at
better than 21kbps you're one of the lucky ones.
However, the mere fact of living here in Paradise more than makes up for
the lack of facilities. (I don't complain)

Hell, it took us three years to get a phone and the exchange is only 5
Km away.

But as you say the location makes up for it.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
I notice you didn't say how far you are from town. What a surprise.
Let's see, two hours, at say, 40 mph, 80 miles or more to the road,
much farther to civilization. Yet they ran a phone line all that way
into the remote bush for you? Makes as much sense as anything else
you've written in this thread I suppose.

I'm thinking a whole bunch of Ghios and Murphys, perhaps 5 acre
parcels, each place named rancho-somethingorother, probably less than
a couple of miles to the power line. Out in the bush indeed.

Wayne

Well Wayne I pick up my mail in Bealiba. Thats 8K. Big town though Pub.
Post Office and Milk Bar. Real shopping, well thats 70K.

Trouble is that you are just ignorant. I said "Bush" you read "Outback".

There is a difference. The bush is on one side of the Black Stump and
the Outback is on the other. Then you have the Never Never.

My place is on the edge of the Mallee, Sheep and wheat for the most
part. And a couple of K away is where the larggest gold nugget in the
world was found. The weather alternates between drought, bad drought and
flood.

Love it here.
 
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