Maker Pro
Maker Pro

War on Short yellow lights.

J

Jim Yanik

Jan 1, 1970
0
We solved that problem here in Oregon, by dictating that you have to
stop at a yellow light if you safely can do it.

But WHO gets to make that decision? "if you safely can do it"
You or the cop who writes you a ticket?
Once the cop writes the ticket,it's just about certain you will have a
RLrunning charge on your license,costing you.
Essentially,Oregon has declared a Yellow to be a Red.
With a HUGE gray area,that only the cop onsite gets to determine.
In other words, in most cases a yellow light means you have to stop,
unless doing so would create a hazard to the drivers behind you.

Jon

Properly,a yellow is a -warning- the light is going to turn red,and as long
as you are in the intersection before it turns red,you have not "ran a RL".
If it's red before you cross the stop bar,you've run the RL.

I've seen yellows as short as 2 sec.
I believe there's a standard for duration of the yellow.
 
J

Jim Yanik

Jan 1, 1970
0
Scottsdale used to have a radar unit that they would loan out to
neighborhood groups. Citizens wrote down date, time, license plate
numbers and speed. The city mailed letters (no tickets), warning the
drivers. Speeds dropped.

...Jim Thompson

Speed is not the cause of RL running;it's purely a decision on the driver's
part TO NOT STOP FOR THE RED.
A properly timed yellow gives plenty of time to decide to stop.
 
J

Jim Yanik

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yep, even leftist weenies don't like *their* ox Gored. They sure
don't mind Goreing others.

My main beef with RLCameras is that the driver does not usually get points
on their license(IOW,revenue collection).
With REAL tickets,a bad driver would accrue enough points and have their
license suspended or revoked,as is proper.

Also that other people don't get to see a RL Runner get pulled over by a
cop with flashing lights and written a REAL ticket.
That does modify other drivers behavior.

Last problem is that the FIRST RLC ticket comes weeks AFTER the
violation;no instant feedback of "run RL,cop pulls you over,get ticket".
A person could run many RLs before the first one arrives in the mail.

(if the USPS doesn't lose it..anf you get your license suspended
unknowingly.)
 
A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Thompson said:
Why is that? Why do you think I should pay more?

...Jim Thompson

Jim,
I responded to a facetious comment with another facetious comment.
Guess ya had to be there!
*Anyway the money in your matress is safe.

*Facitious comment
Mike:)
 
R

Richard Henry

Jan 1, 1970
0
This is a complex issue. People do run red lights - I've seen it happen
often enough. Lengthening the yellow reduces this only where the time
left before the light goes red, allowing for reaction times, means that
drivers are otherwise too close to the junction to feel comfortable
about stopping.

Other drivers will simply respond to longer yellow periods by being
willing to run lights from further back - "if the light goes yellow, put
your foot down". Indeed, one might even anticipate increasing accident
rates caused by such drivers' inaccurate judgement about when the light
will actually go red.

Accidents caused by the latter group can only be reduced by increasing
the delay between a light going red and the conflicting light going
green. Or by disuading such people from running red lights be camera
based enforcement. The latter is preferable, because the former reduces
traffic throughput.

Maybe the situation in the USA is different, but here in NSW, Australia,
I haven't heard of a single convincing case, documented with video,
showing a red-light camera connected to lights with an unreasonably
short yellow period.

Sylvia.

The first contract for red-light cameras in San Diego some years ago
gave complete control of the signal light timing to the contracting
companies. Eventually, a judge threw out ALL the tickets issued when
it became apparent that the company was adjusting the yellow light
timing for what appeared to be revenue-enhancing reasons.
 
S

Sylvia Else

Jan 1, 1970
0
amdx said:
Here's a little info on how crooked local government can be.
Quote from the bottom url.
"This one traffic camera earned the county $1 million in fines over 14
months."
This one light was shortened from 4 seconds ("when every other yellow light
on the stretch of road was four seconds long.") to 2.7 seconds.

6 Cities That were Caught Shortening Yellow Lights For Profit
http://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/

Short Yellow Lights Are Dangerous
http://www.shortyellowlights.com/

Cities Upset That Increasing Yellow Light Time Length Reduces 'Revenue'
http://techdirt.com/articles/20090324/0944474235.shtml

Tale of the three second yellow light.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/12/eveningnews/main558431.shtml
"This one traffic camera earned the county $1 million in fines over 14
months."

I heard Dennis Prager talk about a yellow light study last night, but I
can't locate it. If
anyone does, please post it.
Mike

Hmm....

There's a general principle that says that if conduct can be explained
either by a conspiracy, or by incompetence, you should err on the side
of incompetence, because it's much more likely.

Clearly anyone who feels aggrieved about a red light camera ticket
should immediately go back to the junction in question armed with a
video camera to get solid evidence about the yellow period.

In NSW, red light camera pictures include information that is, or at
least purports to be, the time since the light turned red.

Sylvia.
 
S

Sylvia Else

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Speed is not the cause of RL running;it's purely a decision on the driver's
part TO NOT STOP FOR THE RED.
A properly timed yellow gives plenty of time to decide to stop.

It seems reasonably obvious that for any given yellow period there is a
maximum speed at which it is always possible either to stop before the
line, or cross it before the light goes red.

Exceed that speed, and sometimes you'll run the light.

Sylvia.
 
J

Jon Danniken

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Yanik said:
But WHO gets to make that decision? "if you safely can do it"

A jury of your peers, if you are cited and choose a jury trial.

The statute is given literally as follows:

"A driver facing a steady circular yellow signal
light is thereby warned that the related right
of way is being terminated and that a red or
flashing red light will be shown immediately.
A driver facing the light shall stop at a
clearly marked stop line, but if none, shall
stop before entering the marked crosswalk
on the near side of the intersection, or if
there is no marked crosswalk, then before
entering the intersection. If a driver cannot
stop in safety, the driver may drive cautiously
through the intersection."

Source:
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/docs/vcb/VCB811.pdf

Jon
 
J

Jim Yanik

Jan 1, 1970
0
A jury of your peers, if you are cited and choose a jury trial.

If it gets that far,you're screwed.
It comes down to your word vs the officers.
Guess who wins?
 
G

GregS

Jan 1, 1970
0
This is a complex issue. People do run red lights - I've seen it happen
often enough. Lengthening the yellow reduces this only where the time
left before the light goes red, allowing for reaction times, means that
drivers are otherwise too close to the junction to feel comfortable
about stopping.

The rule around here is the rear end at least half way through the intersection on red
to be legal.

They also just added a law, headlights must be on when windshield wipers
are on. Thats for those who don't understand, headlights must be on in bad weather conditions.

greg
 
J

Jon Danniken

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Yanik said:
If it gets that far,you're screwed.
It comes down to your word vs the officers.
Guess who wins?

The alternative is to flood our society with cameras recording our every
move.

Personally, I'd rather continue to ensure that most cops are doing their job
properly, and are out there to enforce vehicle ordinances for everyone's
safety.

Jon
 
J

Jim Yanik

Jan 1, 1970
0
The alternative is to flood our society with cameras recording our
every move.

Personally, I'd rather continue to ensure that most cops are doing
their job properly, and are out there to enforce vehicle ordinances
for everyone's safety.

Jon


I'm anti-RLC,too.
But I've also been tagged for running a "Red" while it was still yellow,in
MA,a LONG time ago;it was yellow while I was UNDER the light itself.
The dishonest cop claimed it was a high-accident intersection.

I've also been rear-ended several times stopping for RED lights,and had
people far behind me,in other lanes,go thru the RL when I stopped.
If I can stop,so can they. They just CHOSE to NOT stop.

the problem is not running YELLOW lights,it's running RED lights.
And that problem's cause is that police just don't enforce RLRunning with
any regularity. That's why cities want RLCs,so they can have their cops on
radar collecting revenue,and the RLCs bringing in MORE revenue.

allowing ticketing on Yellows is wrong,and it is just to bring in more
revenue.It also increases the uncertainty of the drivers behind;"Is the guy
in front going to stop,or not?" for a YELLOW that they -could- go thru the
intersection.

Make the yellow the proper duration,and have cops enforce the RLs,writing
REAL tickets with REAL points,and other people see the violators getting
written up and learn from it.Then it becomes well known to not run RLs.

and then the worst RLRunners will get their licenses suspended or
revoked,as is proper.

Under RLC regimes,no chronic RLR's will have their licenses suspended or
revoked.
 
J

Jim Yanik

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] (GregS) wrote in
The rule around here is the rear end at least half way through the
intersection on red to be legal.

They also just added a law, headlights must be on when windshield
wipers are on. Thats for those who don't understand, headlights must
be on in bad weather conditions.

greg

Rule in FL is that if front wheels are past the Stop Line when light turns
red,then they have not run the RL.
(you were already "in the intersection" when the light turned red.)

Here in FL,running red lights is mainly a conscious CHOICE,not any lack of
attention or "going too fast" situation.

But we're still getting RLCs. :-(
 
G

GregS

Jan 1, 1970
0
weather conditions.


That has been the law in Florida for decades.


Wonder why...
Are you really allowed to drive in the rain ??

greg
 
A

att

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sylvia Else said:
It seems reasonably obvious that for any given yellow period there is a
maximum speed at which it is always possible either to stop before the
line, or cross it before the light goes red.

Exceed that speed, and sometimes you'll run the light.

Sylvia.
True, and for any given speed limit there is a duration of yellow that will
create an automatic ticket zone, an area of road that if any part of your
car is inside that zone when the light turns yellow you are getting a
ticket. That's how they make the money.
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
amdx wrote in said:
This one light was shortened from 4 seconds ("when every other yellow
light on the stretch of road was four seconds long.") to 2.7 seconds.
Tale of the three second yellow light.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/12/eveningnews/main558431.shtml
"This one traffic camera earned the county $1 million in fines over 14 =
months."

Shortening the yellow is evil, and should be banned by state law. The
voters should ask everyone running to get elected or re-elected to their
statehouses where they stand and what they will do.

Meanwhile, my experience in Pennsylvania is that on roads where the
speed limit is 35 MPH or less, yellow lasts 3 seconds and the next 2
seconds all lights are red. I did not see yellow shorten at a
Philadelphia intersection that got a camera. It appears to me in
Philadelphia, that the cameras are a badly needed tool being used
properly.

My biggest complaint was a PA state law mandating that the cameras
be "wet film" rather than digital, which I suspect to have resulted from
campaign contributions by a manufacturer of "wet film" traffic enforcement
cameras.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
amdx wrote in part: said:
The story I heard was about the poor elderly widow that got caught by one
of these short yellows and received a $485 ticket, she has to pay this
out of her monthly social security check.

In PA, the penalty for being caught running a red light by a camera is a
$100 fine and no points - as of a few years ago. The reasoning for lack
of points is that the cdamera does not identify the driver, only the
vehicle.

In PA, being ticketed by a live police officer for running a red light
was about $80 3 years ago and is probably about $100 now - plus 3 points.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
But WHO gets to make that decision? "if you safely can do it"
You or the cop who writes you a ticket?
Once the cop writes the ticket,it's just about certain you will have a
RLrunning charge on your license,costing you.

In PA, I think it is legally required to stop for a yellow if safe to do
so. The online version of PA's "Driver's manual" currently does not work
for me - probably too old an operating system and version of Acrobat, so I
can't see for sure just yet.

Meanwhile, if it is a legal offense in PA to fail to stop for a yellow
light when able to do so, points are not incurred. And I never see anyone
getting pulled over for blowing yellow lights.

Same for speeding by 5 MPH or less in PA - no points, and I never see
anyone getting pulled over.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
The alternative is to flood our society with cameras recording our every
move.

Personally, I'd rather continue to ensure that most cops are doing their job
properly, and are out there to enforce vehicle ordinances for everyone's
safety.

In Philadelphia, there is too much work for the cops, and the city is in
poor financial shape and has high taxes paying for a large police force
(among other things including pork). And occaisionally, if a Philadelphia
driver is pulled over by the cops, especially a "bad-ass" type driver who
most deserves to be pulled over, then the driver starts shooting, and the
driver's family and neighbors screech about the cops being murderers for
shooting back (or shooting first).

So, traffic enforcement in Philadelphia is excessively lax - especially
for use of turning lanes as passing lanes. (Philly's cops do seem to have
almost adequate intolerance for red-light-running in recent years at
least.)

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
Top