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Voter Criteria

A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
Since my healthcare topic seems to have run its course.

I think we need a new rule for voting.
If you don't pay any federal income taxes, you can't vote.
If you have no skin in the game, you can't vote.
If you don't pay any federal income taxes and you vote,
all you can do is transfer my labor into dollars in your pocket.

Mikek

PS. SS taxes are not federal income taxes, it's a forced payment into
your retirement fund. Even if you call it payroll taxes.
 
H

hamilton

Jan 1, 1970
0
Since my healthcare topic seems to have run its course.

I think we need a new rule for voting.
If you don't pay any federal income taxes, you can't vote.
If you have no skin in the game, you can't vote.
If you don't pay any federal income taxes and you vote,
all you can do is transfer my labor into dollars in your pocket.

Mikek

PS. SS taxes are not federal income taxes, it's a forced payment into
your retirement fund. Even if you call it payroll taxes.

Define "skin in the game"

Or are you talking about chickens and pigs ?

hamilton
 
A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
Define "skin in the game"

Or are you talking about chickens and pigs ?

hamilton

"To have "skin in the game" is to have incurred monetary risk by being
invested in achieving a goal."

From Wikipedia, and says exactly what I wanted the term to convey.
Mikek
 
W

Wond

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've always opined that government employees should not be able to vote
on any ballot that would affect their employment status or income. For
instance, teachers should not be able to vote on local bond issues.

...Jim Thompson

For balance, _everyone's_ opinion is important, not just those with a
dollar at stake.
 
R

Richard Henry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Since my healthcare topic seems to have run its course.



I think we need a new rule for voting.

If you don't pay any federal income taxes, you can't vote.

If you have no skin in the game, you can't vote.

If you don't pay any federal income taxes and you vote,

all you can do is transfer my labor into dollars in your pocket.



Mikek



PS. SS taxes are not federal income taxes, it's a forced payment into

your retirement fund. Even if you call it payroll taxes.

I have always felt that prospective voters should be required to pass an intelligence test at least every 4 years.

No further comment.
 
A

Artemus

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Thompson said:
I've always opined that government employees should not be able to
vote on any ballot that would affect their employment status or
income. For instance, teachers should not be able to vote on local
bond issues.

...Jim Thompson

Nor should anyone who is not a propery tax payer vote on issues which effect
property taxes, like school bonds.
Nor should city folk vote on issues which only effect rural areas.
Art
 
A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
For balance, _everyone's_ opinion is important, not just those with a
dollar at stake.

And you think we have balance now?
Oh maybe, about 50% don't pay taxes and about 50% do.
Mikek
 
A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
So, active duty and retired military lose their franchise in federal
elections? *That's* gonna go over well ...

No problem, "I'll create and exception".
I'll probably exempt most people on SS but not SSI.
Anything else?
Mikek
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
"To have "skin in the game" is to have incurred monetary risk by being
invested in achieving a goal."

Since it takes wealth to incur monetary risk, you are simply
saying you have to have some wealth to vote. That's been done
before. And it was argued about quite vigorously before
writing our Constitution.

Jon
 
A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've always opined that government employees should not be able to
vote on any ballot that would affect their employment status or
income. For instance, teachers should not be able to vote on local
bond issues.

...Jim Thompson

Can we start with government Unions?
That's a circle jerk if there ever was one!
Mikek
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Or get conscripted to fight to keep invaders from getting their hands on your dollars (and your daughters).

This just another variation of the property holder franchise, which used toapply in more or less every English-speaking country. Now that you know this, you might want to find out why they broadened the electorate. You couldfind the reasoning educational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_Shilling_Freeholders

So what. Federal income taxes are - in large part - forced payments into a defence fund to pay for a standing army, whihc is another way of minimisinglife's uncertainties.
I have always felt that prospective voters should be required to pass an intelligence test at least every 4 years.

No further comment.

It might also be good if they also demonstrated that they had some idea of why their system of government works the way it does now, which does require some knowledge of the way it used to work in earlier times. Those who don't understand history are condemned to recapitulate it.
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Since my healthcare topic seems to have run its course.

Since you seem to want to re-invigorate it, I'll add
something and then walk away and just watch. No longer care
to convince anyone, one way or the other. But I don't mind
stirring pots.
I think we need a new rule for voting.
If you don't pay any federal income taxes, you can't vote.
If you have no skin in the game, you can't vote.
If you don't pay any federal income taxes and you vote,
all you can do is transfer my labor into dollars in your pocket.

I almost like Heinlein's approach -- if you haven't served a
part of your life in __volunteer__ Federal service, you don't
have the full rights of citizenship (ability to vote or hold
office.) Starship Troupers is his story about showing what he
felt it took to create a citizen worthy of the right to vote
or hold office. Heinlein's approach doesn't require wealth.
It asks the same personal time investment from rich and poor,
alike.

All this stuff was argued vociferously during the early and
mid parts of 1787, before finishing the writing of the US
Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Since then, things have
changed (we vote for Senators now, but didn't back then.)

Making voting based upon wealth is an old question. During
the US Constitutional Convention in Philidelphia, Gouverneur
Morris said (you can find Bancroft's books on this topic
[it's a 2-volume set] on Google Books, by the way):

"The ignorant and the dependent can be as little trusted with
the public interest as children."

On the same day, James Madison said:

"In future times, a great majority of the people will not
only be without property in land, but property of any sort.
These will either combine under the influence of their common
situation, in which case the rights of property and the
public liberty will not be secure in their hands, or, what is
more probable, they will become the tools of opulence and
ambition; in which case, there will be equal danger on
another side."

You would, I suppose, find little difficulty with the above
world view.

Ben Franklin said, just 3 days later, on August 10th of 1787:

"I dislike everything that tends to debase the spirit of the
common people. If honesty is often the companion of wealth,
and if poverty is exposed to peculiar temptation, the
possession of property increases the desire for more. Some
of the greatest rogues I was ever acquainted with were the
richest rogues. Remember, the scripture requires in rulers
that they should be men hating covetousness. If this
constitution should betray a great partiality to the rich, it
will not only hurt us in the esteem of the most liberal and
enlightened men in Europe, but discourage the common people
from removing to this country."

In the end, Ben Franklin's opinion and that of others who
agreed with him, together with the opinions of Madison and
Morris and others, were cobbled together into what we have
today. There is NO wealth test, but the States were left to
devise methods of selecting their Senators, for example,
leaving significant power in the hands of those wealthy
enough to have regular access to education and power.

That week in early to mid August was quite a week, by the
way. A lot of world views about wealth and poor and their
various peculiarities were exposed in plain view. And there
wasn't much agreement. Enough to get things done, but not a
lot. There was a divide and significant prejudices all around
about those who they understand poorly and that division of
perspectives continues to this day and is just as incorrect
and false today as it was then. (And I'm speaking about the
views that each have of the other; both are false and born
from a lack of understanding.)

Jon
 
A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
Or get conscripted to fight to keep invaders from getting their hands on your dollars (and your daughters).

This just another variation of the property holder franchise, which used to apply in more or less every English-speaking country. Now that you know this, you might want to find out why they broadened the electorate.

You could find the reasoning educational.

I'm aware of what has preceded us. But I like the argument and if "we"
could have just 40 years, maybe we could get back closer to where we
started, and save the country.
So what. Federal income taxes are - in large part - forced payments into a defense fund to pay for a standing army, which is another way of minimizing life's uncertainties.

I wish that was all we paid for, Entitlements take 90% of all the tax
money that is collected. Look it up, never mind I'll do it, I found some
data here,

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/10/federal-spending-by-the-numbers-2012
If you don't trust Heritage, the government source page is listed.

In 2012 tax revenue collected was 2.435 Trillion and entitlement
spending was 2.053 Trillion, that's 84% of tax revenue. Sorry I was a
little off, back when I constructed my total for entitlements I think
included military retirement costs, the numbers on this page don't.
Also note: Defense spending is 27.4% of tax revenue.

84% + 27.4% is 111.4%, How does that work? We borrowed 1.13 Trillion.

Mikek
 
A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
Since you seem to want to re-invigorate it, I'll add
something and then walk away and just watch. No longer care
to convince anyone, one way or the other.
But I don't mind stirring pots.

Yea, me to, me to. LOL

I think we need a new rule for voting.
If you don't pay any federal income taxes, you can't vote.
If you have no skin in the game, you can't vote.
If you don't pay any federal income taxes and you vote,
all you can do is transfer my labor into dollars in your pocket.

I almost like Heinlein's approach -- if you haven't served a
part of your life in __volunteer__ Federal service, you don't
have the full rights of citizenship (ability to vote or hold
office.) Starship Troupers is his story about showing what he
felt it took to create a citizen worthy of the right to vote
or hold office. Heinlein's approach doesn't require wealth.
It asks the same personal time investment from rich and poor,
alike.

All this stuff was argued vociferously during the early and
mid parts of 1787, before finishing the writing of the US
Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Since then, things have
changed (we vote for Senators now, but didn't back then.)

Making voting based upon wealth is an old question. During
the US Constitutional Convention in Philidelphia, Gouverneur
Morris said (you can find Bancroft's books on this topic
[it's a 2-volume set] on Google Books, by the way):

"The ignorant and the dependent can be as little trusted with
the public interest as children."

On the same day, James Madison said:

"In future times, a great majority of the people will not
only be without property in land, but property of any sort.
These will either combine under the influence of their common
situation, in which case the rights of property and the
public liberty will not be secure in their hands, or, what is
more probable, they will become the tools of opulence and
ambition; in which case, there will be equal danger on
another side."

You would, I suppose, find little difficulty with the above
world view.

Ben Franklin said, just 3 days later, on August 10th of 1787:

"I dislike everything that tends to debase the spirit of the
common people. If honesty is often the companion of wealth,
and if poverty is exposed to peculiar temptation, the
possession of property increases the desire for more. Some
of the greatest rogues I was ever acquainted with were the
richest rogues. Remember, the scripture requires in rulers
that they should be men hating covetousness. If this
constitution should betray a great partiality to the rich, it
will not only hurt us in the esteem of the most liberal and
enlightened men in Europe, but discourage the common people
from removing to this country."

In the end, Ben Franklin's opinion and that of others who
agreed with him, together with the opinions of Madison and
Morris and others, were cobbled together into what we have
today. There is NO wealth test, but the States were left to
devise methods of selecting their Senators, for example,
leaving significant power in the hands of those wealthy
enough to have regular access to education and power.

That week in early to mid August was quite a week, by the
way. A lot of world views about wealth and poor and their
various peculiarities were exposed in plain view. And there
wasn't much agreement. Enough to get things done, but not a
lot. There was a divide and significant prejudices all around
about those who they understand poorly and that division of
perspectives continues to this day and is just as incorrect
and false today as it was then. (And I'm speaking about the
views that each have of the other; both are false and born
from a lack of understanding.)

Jon
 
A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
Since it takes wealth to incur monetary risk, you are simply
saying you have to have some wealth to vote. That's been done
before. And it was argued about quite vigorously before
writing our Constitution.

Jon
Not necessarily wealth, I just want you to pay some federal taxes.
Lots of people make good money pay taxes and a have negative net worth.
Some countries live that way. Not sure how long they survive though.
Mikek
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Not necessarily wealth, I just want you to pay some federal taxes.

You pay federal taxes if your income is sufficient. If your
income is that sufficient, you are probably also in
possession of wealth in this country.
Lots of people make good money pay taxes and a have negative net worth.

If their parents were poor and they are young, yes.
Some countries live that way. Not sure how long they survive though.

.....

Jon
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm aware of what has preceded us.

In fact, what you had in 1776 and for a quite few years after that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_States
But I like the argument and if "we"
could have just 40 years, maybe we could get back closer to where we
started, and save the country.

What you had was Tammany Hall - amongst many similar organisations - and yoir country is a long way from being saved from them and their heirs and successors. Your constitution was a fairly early attempt at moderately representative democracy. More modern constitutions - like the one Germany got in 1948 - work a whole lot better. What France has got was written later - 1958 - but it was heavily influenced de Gaulle and reflect his particular interests and prejudices.
I wish that was all we paid for, Entitlements take 90% of all the tax
money that is collected. Look it up, never mind I'll do it, I found some
data here,

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/10/federal-spending
-by-the-numbers-2012

If you don't trust Heritage, the government source page is listed.

The Heritage Foundation is right wing think tank. If you trust their propaganda, you probably think that James Arthur can think straight.
In 2012 tax revenue collected was 2.435 Trillion and entitlement
spending was 2.053 Trillion, that's 84% of tax revenue. Sorry I was a
little off, back when I constructed my total for entitlements I think
included military retirement costs, the numbers on this page don't.
Also note: Defense spending is 27.4% of tax revenue.

84% + 27.4% is 111.4%, How does that work? We borrowed 1.13 Trillion.

With the very sensible aim of avoiding a rerun of The Great Depression. Sadly, you didn't borrow enough at the start, so you stayed in recession longer than you should have done, and had to keep on borrowing for longer beforethe economy got going again.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Since you seem to want to re-invigorate it, I'll add
something and then walk away and just watch. No longer care
to convince anyone, one way or the other. But I don't mind
stirring pots.



I almost like Heinlein's approach -- if you haven't served a
part of your life in __volunteer__ Federal service, you don't
have the full rights of citizenship (ability to vote or hold
office.) Starship Troupers is his story about showing what he
felt it took to create a citizen worthy of the right to vote
or hold office. Heinlein's approach doesn't require wealth.
It asks the same personal time investment from rich and poor,
alike.

Heinlein could write, but he couldn't think.
All this stuff was argued vociferously during the early and
mid parts of 1787, before finishing the writing of the US
Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Since then, things have
changed (we vote for Senators now, but didn't back then.)

Making voting based upon wealth is an old question. During
the US Constitutional Convention in Philidelphia, Gouverneur
Morris said (you can find Bancroft's books on this topic

[it's a 2-volume set] on Google Books, by the way):

"The ignorant and the dependent can be as little trusted with
the public interest as children."

On the same day, James Madison said:

"In future times, a great majority of the people will not
only be without property in land, but property of any sort.

These will either combine under the influence of their common
situation, in which case the rights of property and the
public liberty will not be secure in their hands, or, what is
more probable, they will become the tools of opulence and
ambition; in which case, there will be equal danger on
another side."

You would, I suppose, find little difficulty with the above
world view.

Ben Franklin said, just 3 days later, on August 10th of 1787:

"I dislike everything that tends to debase the spirit of the
common people. If honesty is often the companion of wealth,
and if poverty is exposed to peculiar temptation, the
possession of property increases the desire for more. Some
of the greatest rogues I was ever acquainted with were the
richest rogues. Remember, the scripture requires in rulers
that they should be men hating covetousness. If this
constitution should betray a great partiality to the rich, it
will not only hurt us in the esteem of the most liberal and
enlightened men in Europe, but discourage the common people
from removing to this country."

In the end, Ben Franklin's opinion and that of others who
agreed with him, together with the opinions of Madison and
Morris and others, were cobbled together into what we have
today. There is NO wealth test, but the States were left to
devise methods of selecting their Senators, for example,
leaving significant power in the hands of those wealthy
enough to have regular access to education and power.

That week in early to mid August was quite a week, by the
way. A lot of world views about wealth and poor and their
various peculiarities were exposed in plain view. And there
wasn't much agreement. Enough to get things done, but not a
lot. There was a divide and significant prejudices all around
about those who they understand poorly and that division of
perspectives continues to this day and is just as incorrect
and false today as it was then. (And I'm speaking about the
views that each have of the other; both are false and born
from a lack of understanding.)

You need to read Jonathan I. Israel's "Democratic Enlightenment" ISBN 978-0-19-954820-0. The American Revolution exploited some Radical Enlightenment ideas to get the masses on-side - Tom Paine was a useful propagandist, but had no direct influence on the creation of the US constitution, which was all Moderate Enlightenment, which has the defect of leaving the fat cats in control of the cream jug.

The current US Gini index - 45%, rivalled only by China at 47% - shows how effectively the fat cats have hung onto the cream jug. Scandinavia works fine with a Gini index of 25%, Germany works very well indeed with a Gini index of 28.3% and most advanced industrial countries come out at 30% of bit higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Heinlein could write, but he couldn't think.

Like I said, I almost like it.
All this stuff was argued vociferously during the early and
mid parts of 1787, before finishing the writing of the US
Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Since then, things have
changed (we vote for Senators now, but didn't back then.)

Making voting based upon wealth is an old question. During
the US Constitutional Convention in Philidelphia, Gouverneur
Morris said (you can find Bancroft's books on this topic

[it's a 2-volume set] on Google Books, by the way):

"The ignorant and the dependent can be as little trusted with
the public interest as children."

On the same day, James Madison said:

"In future times, a great majority of the people will not
only be without property in land, but property of any sort.

These will either combine under the influence of their common
situation, in which case the rights of property and the
public liberty will not be secure in their hands, or, what is
more probable, they will become the tools of opulence and
ambition; in which case, there will be equal danger on
another side."

You would, I suppose, find little difficulty with the above
world view.

Ben Franklin said, just 3 days later, on August 10th of 1787:

"I dislike everything that tends to debase the spirit of the
common people. If honesty is often the companion of wealth,
and if poverty is exposed to peculiar temptation, the
possession of property increases the desire for more. Some
of the greatest rogues I was ever acquainted with were the
richest rogues. Remember, the scripture requires in rulers
that they should be men hating covetousness. If this
constitution should betray a great partiality to the rich, it
will not only hurt us in the esteem of the most liberal and
enlightened men in Europe, but discourage the common people
from removing to this country."

In the end, Ben Franklin's opinion and that of others who
agreed with him, together with the opinions of Madison and
Morris and others, were cobbled together into what we have
today. There is NO wealth test, but the States were left to
devise methods of selecting their Senators, for example,
leaving significant power in the hands of those wealthy
enough to have regular access to education and power.

That week in early to mid August was quite a week, by the
way. A lot of world views about wealth and poor and their
various peculiarities were exposed in plain view. And there
wasn't much agreement. Enough to get things done, but not a
lot. There was a divide and significant prejudices all around
about those who they understand poorly and that division of
perspectives continues to this day and is just as incorrect
and false today as it was then. (And I'm speaking about the
views that each have of the other; both are false and born
from a lack of understanding.)

You need to read Jonathan I. Israel's "Democratic
Enlightenment" ISBN 978-0-19-954820-0. The American
Revolution exploited some Radical Enlightenment ideas to get
the masses on-side - Tom Paine was a useful propagandist,
but had no direct influence on the creation of the US
constitution, which was all Moderate Enlightenment, which
has the defect of leaving the fat cats in control of the
cream jug.

I'll see about getting and reading it. I've spent a fair
amount of time reading the various personal letters from the
period between about 1750 and 1810, or so, already. Along
with published letters in the New York Journal (from that
period.) And session records of the Confederation Congress
from around 1783 to 1785. I've learned a lot that I never got
even close to in any history books in public schools here.
And stuff that differs dramatically from popular opinion in
the US about that time. I'm well aware of propaganda going
on. Doesn't mean I can't learn more.

By the way, propaganda is much better understood today after
the expenditure of trillions of dollars in this last century
(since certainly before the 1920's and going forward.) And
that science knowledge is used quite effectively here in the
US. It's sickening. But it works. In the US, manufacturing
consent is worth a lot of money.
The current US Gini index - 45%, rivalled only by China at
47% - shows how effectively the fat cats have hung onto the
cream jug. Scandinavia works fine with a Gini index of 25%,
Germany works very well indeed with a Gini index of 28.3%
and most advanced industrial countries come out at 30% of
bit higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Now that's a subject I don't need to be informed about. My
opinions about the US in that light are quite strong and
would probably largely agree with yours. Perhaps exceeding
them. There is a great article... see below:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/05/the-quiet-coup/307364/

The author has a lot of experience he's working from and it's
probably fairly accurate.

Jon
 
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