# very high oscillation down copper wire

Discussion in 'General Electronics Discussion' started by ratstar, Jan 7, 2021.

1. ### ratstar

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Aug 20, 2018
Sorry if this question doesnt suit the forum, but I dont know where I can go to ask this question, but I know you guys know things about this, you just dont like telling people for some reason.

So can copper wire support high oscillations like above 100 gigahertz.

What problems does such high oscillations exhibit having such a short wavelength.

I know for one thing, that the measurements of the system will hit at random phases when the signal is fanning into itself.
I also know that dielectrics start to conduct at frequencies above 100 megahertz.

I think I have an oscillator circuit that can put out frequencies with no limit... but I bet theres more issues to do with it that inhibit such a powerful thing to have for yourself.

I know that the faster the oscillator is, the more power you have to put in to hit the same level of functioning power in the system.

And also what would resistance do to it - Would 0 Kelvin cooling (and super conducting) help some issues?

Ive got a feeling if you use conductive paint, it may hurt things a bit... but I dont know yet...

Lots to go yet, before I go attempt to do it. If anyone wants to know more about this oscillator you can ask me, I dont mind talking about it. (I want to make an electrical delay line.)

*edit* I just got an idea, if dielectrics start to conduct at high frequencies - doesnt that mean resistors dont even work anymore - because they start to conduct?!?!?

2. ### bertusModerator

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3. ### Harald KappModeratorModerator

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How do you come to this conclusion. The opposite is the case, believe me.
No wire is used. Instead waveguides are used.
They don't. What happens is that an apparent current flows due to the so called displacement current. This is not physical flow of current through the dielectric.
This is way too general. power and frequency are not per se related. You can build low power systems at high frequency as well as high power systems at low frequency.
Also way too general. For some functions/effects a certain resistance is required. If you're talking about energy transfer, the lower the resistance, the lower the losses.
Just don't apply the paint to mucous membranes or open wounds. Just kidding. What do you mean by "it may hurt"?
What you see in a schematic are usually "ideal" components. Ideal resistors, ideal capacitors, ideal inductors etc.
In reality, ideal components do not exist. Every component has parasitic elements. These can be modeled, e.g. a capacitor with series inductance and resistance and possibly parallel parasitics, too. These parasitics will change the behavior from ideal to definitely non-ideal at higher frequencies. See for example this document.

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4. ### ratstar

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Aug 20, 2018
Ah thanks for the help!

Ive never heard of wave guides before, could you tell me more about metal electrical ones? whats the difference between it and an ordinary wire?

Yes sir, I have a funny feeling about that "displacement current" as in all the dielectric turning into a capacitor.
If you had a lot of wires parallel to each other, it would cause cross talk, especially at high frequencies and thats a problem in my design. But im actually guessing (I think I saw it on EEV blog...) thats already a problem at a megahert, let alone a terrahert.

Ive got an idea tho, if you sorrounded every data wire with the inverse current, then it would block the displacement current, and if these blocking wires had the displacement current problem it wouldnt matter because you arent using them for the signal, but ud have to waste space 3 times the space to do it. That could possibly work in my mind, cause it would be like a ladder of wires connecting the wires, and the phase inverted signal would cause it to not displace laterally.

So if you did that for all "wave guides" in your system, then the displacement current would be blocked for the whole thing.

Conductive paint is highly resistive, so I was wondering if it would hurt the waveform if it was high frequency enough.
Its an option for me, if I could use it would make things easier.

From what Burtus said, about the "skin effect" that semed to me that the higher the ac the higher the effective resistance?

Also, when probing with 1megahert probes a 10 megahert signal, you get amplitude loss, this is caused by extra current shorting through the voltage divider pathway to negative, is this the current literally going through the resistor?

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6. ### ratstar

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Aug 20, 2018
Thanks Bertus.

Actually about that parallel crosstalk thing - use rectified ac, and then go + - + - across, and it probably doesnt happen. the caps would only charge one way then it would stop displacing.

So thats one thing solved, but I'm just wondering what else is going to happen..

7. ### Bluejets

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mmmm...I'm just wondering if the life of Brian tower scene is about to be re-enacted.

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8. ### ratstar

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Aug 20, 2018
Whats the life of Brain tower scene - (I know the movie, but I didnt watch it.)
Its not when he was getting crucified, i hope.

Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
9. ### (*steve*)¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥdModerator

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Brian is being chased up a tower by roman soldiers. The tower is under construction. He gets to the top and falls...

...only to land on a spaceship. He finds himself in a battle in space where the craft he is on is being chased and fired on by another one. It is hit, and crashes back on earth, ironically at the base of the tower Brian fell from.

Brian extricated himself from the debris, and runs off, with the Roman soldiers exiting the tower close behind.

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11. ### ratstar

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Aug 20, 2018
Thanks for showing me that, yes I never saw it, I just heard alot about it in highschool.
Alien- Tech!!! I dont think what im making is that unusual, tbh, but to others im some alien wierdo.

12. ### bertusModerator

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13. ### ratstar

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I could rename that book "computers - amplifiers and oscillators" because computers contain nothing but them as well.