Use of stepped sine wave UPS with SONY Bracia Flat Panel LCD TV

[**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**]

Hi;
I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the
TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS

The UPS I am considering would be something like an APC Back-UPS 650,
which are plentiful, easy to repair but have a stepped sinewave output.

Can anyone tell me if there would be any reliability issues in running
this setup? I know that there might be an AC hum issue with the sound
system due to switching transients. I don't intend to back up my audio
amplifier. I only want the TV and CD changer to ride out the numerous
brownouts we get in Florida.

(*The Pioneer must be on standby to retain memory and turns back on from
standby on power interruptions).

--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

"Follow The Money" ;-P

 

[Scott Dorsey]

Hi;
I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the
TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS

Why? Is it absolutely critical that you be able to watch TV during a
power outage? Is your life so tightly tied up with the Simpsons that
you cannot spare a few minutes without television?

The UPS I am considering would be something like an APC Back-UPS 650,
which are plentiful, easy to repair but have a stepped sinewave output.

These are offline units, so normally they produce whatever power is going
into them. You only get the ugly waveform when the power goes out and
the switch modes.

Can anyone tell me if there would be any reliability issues in running
this setup? I know that there might be an AC hum issue with the sound
system due to switching transients. I don't intend to back up my audio
amplifier. I only want the TV and CD changer to ride out the numerous
brownouts we get in Florida.

My suspicion is that when the UPS kicks in, you will have vast amounts
of noise, both on video and audio.

Also, a UPS is not the right tool for dealing with brownouts. Consider
using a ferroresonant regulator instead. C&H Sales always has some surplus
at reasonable prices. Be sure to load the thing to at least half the maximum
rated load for it to regulate properly, though.
--scott

 

[Meat Plow]

Hi;
I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the
TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS

The UPS I am considering would be something like an APC Back-UPS 650,
which are plentiful, easy to repair but have a stepped sinewave output.

Can anyone tell me if there would be any reliability issues in running
this setup? I know that there might be an AC hum issue with the sound
system due to switching transients. I don't intend to back up my audio
amplifier. I only want the TV and CD changer to ride out the numerous
brownouts we get in Florida.

(*The Pioneer must be on standby to retain memory and turns back on from
standby on power interruptions).

Been running a Panasonic 51" rear projection on an APC 1500 for a few
years. Also run my DirecTV DVR on it. Did this after getting fed up with
power interruptions that have since been fixed. I don't notice any
problems with my equipment.

 

[Scott Dorsey]

Ferroresonant transformers do nothing for power cycling on and off.

They will actually ride out a drop out for several cycles... as many as
ten on some of the bigger ones.

Or do you actually have outages, and not just brownouts?
--scott

Please shut off the HTML encoding.

 

[Meat Plow]

Thanks; I assume the APC1500 is stepped Sine?

Yep.

 

[Richard Crowley]

"**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**" wrote ...

Thanks;
I assume the APC1500 is stepped sinewave?
Also good idea about the cable box. Mine is a DVR
with a harddrive.

I should clarify that these are not brown outs but are
repeated blackouts as the power utility trys and fails
to auotomatically reclose its breakers. This results in
an OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF cycle.

To deal with that sort of thing, I have just hooked up a
relay so that it turns off at the first drop, and then you
can manually re-enable it after the power is reliable again.
If you aren't home at the time, no harm/no foul.

Trying to use a UPS to work around this just seems
like a worse idea than doing nothing.

PLEASE TURN OFF THE HTML FORMATTING!!!!!
YOU ARE POSTING TO ASCII, PLAIN-TEXT NEWS-
GROUPS.

 

[James Sweet]

Hi;
I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the
TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS

The UPS I am considering would be something like an APC Back-UPS 650,
which are plentiful, easy to repair but have a stepped sinewave output.

Can anyone tell me if there would be any reliability issues in running
this setup? I know that there might be an AC hum issue with the sound
system due to switching transients. I don't intend to back up my audio
amplifier. I only want the TV and CD changer to ride out the numerous
brownouts we get in Florida.

(*The Pioneer must be on standby to retain memory and turns back on from
standby on power interruptions).

When I lost power in the big windstorm last week it was in the middle of
my weekly movie night gathering. I hooked the RPTV, reciever and DVD
player to a cheap inverter connected to the car and we watched the rest
of the movie and another one after that. I noticed no difference in
performance at all, the only effect was the 60Hz power transformer in
the reciever emitted a buzzing sound, the sound from the speakers was
clean as always.

Computers run fine off cheap UPS's and inverters and most modern
equipment has very similar switchmode power supplies. Give it a try, but
chances are it'll work just fine.

 

[**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**]

Thanks !

When I lost power in the big windstorm last week it was in the middle
of my weekly movie night gathering. I hooked the RPTV, reciever and
DVD player to a cheap inverter connected to the car and we watched the
rest of the movie and another one after that. I noticed no difference
in performance at all, the only effect was the 60Hz power transformer
in the reciever emitted a buzzing sound, the sound from the speakers
was clean as always.

Computers run fine off cheap UPS's and inverters and most modern
equipment has very similar switchmode power supplies. Give it a try,
but chances are it'll work just fine.

Thanks!

--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

"Follow The Money" ;-P

 

[**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**]

Thanks!

Yep.

Thanks!

--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

"Follow The Money" ;-P

 

[Andrew Rossmann]

[This followup was posted to sci.electronics.repair and a copy was sent
to the cited author.]

Hi;
I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the
TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS

The UPS I am considering would be something like an APC Back-UPS 650,
which are plentiful, easy to repair but have a stepped sinewave output.

Can anyone tell me if there would be any reliability issues in running
this setup? I know that there might be an AC hum issue with the sound
system due to switching transients. I don't intend to back up my audio
amplifier. I only want the TV and CD changer to ride out the numerous
brownouts we get in Florida.

You may want to consider UPS's designed for audio systems, or a higher-
end UPS such as APC's Smart-UPS series which output true sine-wave. The
drawback might be some noise. I had one for awhile, but it would make a
chirp sound occasionally, even when I disconnected the beeper!! I assume
it was some electronic component vibrating.

It's about $310 list for a 750VA model (about 500W), and $460 for 1000
VA (700w).

http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=165

I should mention I have a BackUPS ES 725 on my system (current version
is the ES 750). My TV is a CRT and is NOT on the battery backup section
(4 outlets are backed up, 4 are not.) I have the cable box (Motorola
DCT-6412) and DVD player on the battery side.

 

[[email protected]]

| I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
| manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the
| TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
| PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS

IMHO, this is sufficient mis-feature to urge others to not buy such a
product. Sony needs to re-hire some decent design engineers.

 

[[email protected]]

|>Hi;
|>I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
|>manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the
|>TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
|>PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS
|
| Why? Is it absolutely critical that you be able to watch TV during a
| power outage? Is your life so tightly tied up with the Simpsons that
| you cannot spare a few minutes without television?

If the power goes out, that's the same effect as pulling the plug.
He might have the TV on when the power goes out. I don't know what
is screwed up in that TV design that requires this, but something
certainly is. But I believe he's trying to find a workaround by
having a UPS that gives up a time window to turn the TV off properly.

Perhaps the beast is running Windows based software inside in which
case it could fail to restart properly upon power resumption. Or it
could be from any number of other bad design decisions.

I have already noticed that some some DVD players that remember where
on the DVD you currently are at if you turn the player off with the
power button fail to do that if you just unplug it. Bad design, but
given the limitations of flash memory, they certainly don't want to
be saving the current position every second. With proper power supply
design, however, the CPU and flash memory can remain powered long enough
when the mains power source goes out to complete a flash save. They
apparently don't want to design that.

 

[Richard Crowley]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
| **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:
|>Hi;
|>I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
|>manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off
the
|>TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
|>PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS
|
| Why? Is it absolutely critical that you be able to watch TV during
a
| power outage? Is your life so tightly tied up with the Simpsons
that
| you cannot spare a few minutes without television?

If the power goes out, that's the same effect as pulling the plug.
He might have the TV on when the power goes out. I don't know what
is screwed up in that TV design that requires this, but something
certainly is. But I believe he's trying to find a workaround by
having a UPS that gives up a time window to turn the TV off properly.

Perhaps the beast is running Windows based software inside in which
case it could fail to restart properly upon power resumption. Or it
could be from any number of other bad design decisions.

I can't believe it is anything more serious than not allowing
the post-operation cooling cycle to complete. If these things
really break when power is removed (for whatever reason),
Sony will have a massive problem on its hands. I just don't
believe that even the modern Sony of today is that stupid.

If you don't warn consumers with strong enough language,
they will connect their big-screen (or projector) to a switched
outlet and it will never get the power-down cooling cycle.
And/or it will go through the setup routine (finding channels,
etc.) every time you turn it on.

I have already noticed that some some DVD players that remember where
on the DVD you currently are at if you turn the player off with the
power button fail to do that if you just unplug it. Bad design, but
given the limitations of flash memory, they certainly don't want to
be saving the current position every second. With proper power supply
design, however, the CPU and flash memory can remain powered long
enough
when the mains power source goes out to complete a flash save. They
apparently don't want to design that.

The average frequency of power interruption seems unlikely
to warrant such extraordinary measures. I doubt it even uses
Flash. Remember that lots of consumer stuff (most especially
VCRs, etc.) just turn off the display and continue to consume
just as much power as when they were "on".

 

[James Sweet]

| I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
| manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the
| TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
| PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS

IMHO, this is sufficient mis-feature to urge others to not buy such a
product. Sony needs to re-hire some decent design engineers.

This has been the case for decades with high powered projection devices.
Remember the old slide projectors that would run the fan for a few
minutes after shutting it off?

 

[[email protected]]

|> Scott Dorsey wrote:
|> | **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:
|> |>Hi;
|> |>I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
|> |>manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off
|> the
|> |>TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
|> |>PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS
|> |
|> | Why? Is it absolutely critical that you be able to watch TV during
|> a
|> | power outage? Is your life so tightly tied up with the Simpsons
|> that
|> | you cannot spare a few minutes without television?
|>
|> If the power goes out, that's the same effect as pulling the plug.
|> He might have the TV on when the power goes out. I don't know what
|> is screwed up in that TV design that requires this, but something
|> certainly is. But I believe he's trying to find a workaround by
|> having a UPS that gives up a time window to turn the TV off properly.
|>
|> Perhaps the beast is running Windows based software inside in which
|> case it could fail to restart properly upon power resumption. Or it
|> could be from any number of other bad design decisions.
|
| I can't believe it is anything more serious than not allowing
| the post-operation cooling cycle to complete. If these things
| really break when power is removed (for whatever reason),
| Sony will have a massive problem on its hands. I just don't
| believe that even the modern Sony of today is that stupid.

I've heard of such things happening, not in all cases, but in some
cases, particularly if power is lost very shortly after it comes
on (think: reclosers). It's probably not a big problem, but it is
their problem.


| If you don't warn consumers with strong enough language,
| they will connect their big-screen (or projector) to a switched
| outlet and it will never get the power-down cooling cycle.
| And/or it will go through the setup routine (finding channels,
| etc.) every time you turn it on.

Still, IMHO, a bad design. Active cooling should not be needed
when there is no active heating. And channel status should be
saved in flash memory, and periodically scanned when not in use,
as well as channel status noted whcn the user changes around.
The full scan should only be needed on initial setup or when the
user requests it.


|> I have already noticed that some some DVD players that remember where
|> on the DVD you currently are at if you turn the player off with the
|> power button fail to do that if you just unplug it. Bad design, but
|> given the limitations of flash memory, they certainly don't want to
|> be saving the current position every second. With proper power supply
|> design, however, the CPU and flash memory can remain powered long
|> enough
|> when the mains power source goes out to complete a flash save. They
|> apparently don't want to design that.
|
| The average frequency of power interruption seems unlikely
| to warrant such extraordinary measures. I doubt it even uses
| Flash. Remember that lots of consumer stuff (most especially
| VCRs, etc.) just turn off the display and continue to consume
| just as much power as when they were "on".

Given that the original statement was:

|> |>I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
|> |>manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off

It seems like it is acceptable to pull the plug so long as you have done
a turn off operation first. That's not consistent with a device that
keeps its data only in volatile RAM. If it's just a RAM issue, then
pulling the plug won't care whether a turnoff is done or not. So I
suspect it is storing in RAM but with a sufficient power supply to keep
the DC level up long enough to complete the flash save, or a lack of
ability to detect loss of AC power. Bad design.

 

[[email protected]]

| [email protected] wrote:
|>
|> | I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations
|> | manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the
|> | TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc
|> | PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS
|>
|> IMHO, this is sufficient mis-feature to urge others to not buy such a
|> product. Sony needs to re-hire some decent design engineers.
|>
|
|
| This has been the case for decades with high powered projection devices.
| Remember the old slide projectors that would run the fan for a few
| minutes after shutting it off?

So what about their design makes it a problem for cooling to go from active
to passive when the heating goes from active to none? It would seem to me
that a slower cooling process would be less stressful. But apparently some
aspect of it is a problem where temperature presumably will rise somewhere
that active cooling would have prevented (e.g. cool parts adjacent to hot
parts). Someone didn't consider thermal in the mechanical design.

 

[Laurence Payne]

So what about their design makes it a problem for cooling to go from active
to passive when the heating goes from active to none? It would seem to me
that a slower cooling process would be less stressful. But apparently some
aspect of it is a problem where temperature presumably will rise somewhere
that active cooling would have prevented (e.g. cool parts adjacent to hot
parts). Someone didn't consider thermal in the mechanical design.

Or the punters demanded it small and cheap. Lots of equipment
requires a shut-down cycle. You're used to it with your computer,
your ink-jet printer. If they reckon the projector bulb will last
longer with controlled cooling, why should we take an attitude?

 

[Richard Crowley]

Still, IMHO, a bad design. Active cooling should not be needed
when there is no active heating.

Modern projectors (especially "road-warrior", portable type),
servo-controlled lamps, etc. etc. would be non-viable in the
modern market it they were designed large enough to allow
unaided convection cooling. Furthermore the heat is so
concentrated far inside that I question whether one could
design such equipment for natural cooling regardless of size.

 

[Scott Dorsey]

It is a good idea to protect cable and phone lines in and out of your =
entertainment center, however suppression designs can impact the ability =
to decode caller ID on your phone line.

PLEASE turn off the HTML crap.

Suppressors that have so much group delay across the audible passband that
they prevent the low-rate caller ID signal from being properly detected
have to be pretty awful. If it doesn't meet WECO specs, don't put it on
the line.
--scott

 

[Steve Stone]

PLEASE turn off the HTML crap.

It always amazes me that in this day and age we still have people who prefer
1981 IBM PC text.

Next someone will ask for upper case only, 5 level Baudot, because they are
reading this group on a Teletype Model 28.