Use of Extension Cord

[John Fields]

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:36:11 -0000, "Peter Hucker" <[email protected]
wrote

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 06:48:08 -0000, vi
[email protected]>, "Peter Hucker <[email protected]
spake thusly

And oh by the way, your use of the word "pedant" is also incorrect

You just shot yourself in the foot

Or perhaps you just showed your inability to use and understand
dictionary. Try again

Or perhaps I don't give a shit about precision meanings

--
Well, perhaps you should. Here's one from some of your boys

The Animal

DON'T LET ME BE MISUNDERSTOO
(Benjamin/Marcus/Caldwell

Baby, do you understand me no
Sometimes I feel a little ma
Well don't you know that no-one aliv
Can always be an ange
When things go wrong I seem to be ba

I'm just a soul who's intentions are goo
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstoo

Baby, sometimes I'm so carefre
With a joy that's hard to hid
And sometimes it seems tha
All I have to do is worr
And then you're bound to see my other sid

I'm just a soul who's intentions are goo
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstoo

If I seem edgy, I want you to kno
That I never mean to take it out on yo
Life has it's problems and I get my shar
And that's one thing I never mean to d

'cause I love yo
Oh, oh, oh, baby, don't you know I'm huma
Have thoughts like any other on
Sometimes I find myself alone and regrettin
Some foolish thing, some little simple thing I've don

I'm just a soul who's intentions are goo
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstoo

Yes, I'm just a soul who's intentions are goo
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstoo

Yes, I'm just a soul who's intentions are goo
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstoo

Yes, I'm just a soul who's intentions are goo
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstoo

 

[Big Mouth Billy Bass]

Or perhaps I don't give a shit about precision meanings.

Yeah, that would serve you quite well when working with 500KV, or
sensitive communication gear, or precise avionics, servo-mechanisms,
etc etc etc, wouldn't it? As in, it says "-48VDC," but voltage is
voltage, so I'll go ahead and be imprecise and apply 120VAC. Or how
about, this device uses 60Hz, but I'm British, so I'll go ahead and
use 50Hz, I don't give a shit about precision meanings. Good stuff,
mate, thanks for the laughs.

 

[[email protected]]

Ding..."And theeeer'es the bell, fighters return to your corners! Whew,
this thread has been awesome! OK girls, my turn.

The reason that extension cord use is being increasingly written into
instruction manuals and labeling on consumer grade equipment is for
legal protection of the manufacturer or brander. People are bound to do
stupid things, and in this country they tend to want to sue companies
afterwards. Hence, shampoo bottles discouraging eating of the contents
and bicycles with stickers all over them saying not for night use.
There is no electrical reason why an extension cord can not be used
with any appliance, and of course it is necessary to use one of the
proper gauge.

Part of this flame war appears to have been one poster's use of the
word electrocution. By definition, that word means to have been killed
by electric current. Who ever said that common use is to refer to any
electric shock is wrong. My students do that all the time, and I always
correct them. Shocked is shocked. Dead is dead. Apparently, this
individual also chose to use the word "pedant" improperly as well. Ah
well, so much for 6th Grade English class. He goes on to say that he
doesn't walk around with a dictionary in his throat. Perhaps he should.
Defending that which is wrong, not only does not make it right, it's
also painfully illogical.

Furthermore, if you get shocked by a drill and fall off a ladder, the
cause of death is the broken neck or head trauma, not the electric
drill. A coroner or M.E. would find the cause of death to be the actual
cause of death, not the circumstances under which the poor sap died.

Generally, AC kills by power dissipation. In other words, your body,
which has a resistance impedes the flow of current, resulting in a
voltage drop. this causes the body to dissipate heat. In essence,
you're getting cooked. Done to a turn, in fact. If you take a hot dog,
and stick the stripped end of the hot side of a standard 16/3 pigtail
power cord into one end, while inserting the stripped end of the
neutral lead into the other you will be able to cook your dog to crispy
deliciousness in about 3 to 5 minutes. If you touch the weiner during
this process, you will not be electrocuted nor will you be shocked. You
may however, burn your fingers.

Alright, it's necessary here, to state that it is actually the friction
caused by the changing of polarity of the water molecules in your body,
but you get the gist.

Here in the United States, we have a place called Florida. Florida has
a device they affectionately dub "Ol' Sparky". The electrodes of said
device, are connected (H) to your head, (N) to your left leg, a
parallel (H) around your upper torso to your spine and (N) to your
right arm. Current is then applied in bursts of 60 seconds, 30 seconds
and again at 60 seconds. The reason for turning it on and off like that
is to keep the body from catching fire, while insuring that the poor
mook is "most sincerely dead." In the early days, several individuals
did indeed burst into flames.

I saw one post in here which used Ohms law to show Vdrop/foot of copper
wire. Good math, and indeed correct for DC. AC however has
significantly lower losses in copper wire. In order to do the
equivalent calculation for AC, one would need to calculate for Z
(impedance). In any but the most extreme cases, copper wire offers
almost no noticeable impedance. Can you imagine what the energy loss
and ensuant heat dissapation would be, in long wire runs, from
substations in rural areas, were this not so?

I'd like to keep going with this, as I saw so much I wanted to comment
on. Unfortunately, this rant has already gone into extra innings.
Remember that everything I said was intended only to add to the
existing dialogue and not to, in any way, offend.

That being said, let the flames commence.

 

[Peter Hucker]

You mean a Brit? I don't have any sons.

And I don't like poetry or believe in god, so [ignores]

 

[Peter Hucker]

---
You've merely stated what your _opinion_ is. You know nothing about
the technical details of either system and are, therefore,
unqualifies to make even a basic assessment of what's better and
what's worse.

You've told me enough details to show it is less safe than the UK system in some respects. By the way I discussed it with an electrical engineer, and he told me the US system is terribly unsafe.

As a matter of fact I don't even know what you're doing here other
than flapping your jaws, since I've checked out some of your posting
history and you seem to be little more than a wannabe jester.

Trolling, perhaps?

I subscribed to the group to ask a question, and noticed a couple of posts to reply to.

Agreed, but more of the Americans are egotistical, and to a greater extent.

What I'm doing is asking you why you think I'm having a go at you when I'm not.

---
You're skirting the issues, which are the differences between the
British and the American electrical systems.

Think about it and I'm sure you'll agree.

After all, before I told you you didn't know what a 120V or 240V US
domestic power receptacle looked like, you didn't know that we have
a 240V feed into nearly every home in this country, (with a capacity
of at least 200 amperes, I'd guess)

What on earth do you do with 48kW???

As for the rest of it, it's just off-topic bullshit which you seem
unable to control.

You have an obsession with staying precisely on topic. I'm sure you've got German blood in you.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

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[Peter Hucker]

Yeah, that would serve you quite well when working with 500KV, or
sensitive communication gear, or precise avionics, servo-mechanisms,
etc etc etc, wouldn't it? As in, it says "-48VDC," but voltage is
voltage, so I'll go ahead and be imprecise and apply 120VAC. Or how
about, this device uses 60Hz, but I'm British, so I'll go ahead and
use 50Hz, I don't give a shit about precision meanings. Good stuff,
mate, thanks for the laughs.

Precision in English conversation is not the same as precision in mathematics, electronics, etc. Why can't you distinguish between the two?

 

[Bob Monsen]

The Animals

DON'T LET ME BE MISUNDERSTOOD
(Benjamin/Marcus/Caldwell)

John, I wouldn't have taken you to be an "Animals" fan...

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen

God ever arithmetizes.
- Gustav Jacob Jacobi

 

[John Fields]

Ding..."And theeeer'es the bell, fighters return to your corners! Whew,
this thread has been awesome! OK girls, my turn.

Generally, AC kills by power dissipation. In other words, your body,
which has a resistance impedes the flow of current, resulting in a
voltage drop. this causes the body to dissipate heat. In essence,
you're getting cooked. Done to a turn, in fact. If you take a hot dog,
and stick the stripped end of the hot side of a standard 16/3 pigtail
power cord into one end, while inserting the stripped end of the
neutral lead into the other you will be able to cook your dog to crispy
deliciousness in about 3 to 5 minutes. If you touch the weiner during
this process, you will not be electrocuted nor will you be shocked. You
may however, burn your fingers.

Alright, it's necessary here, to state that it is actually the friction
caused by the changing of polarity of the water molecules in your body,
but you get the gist.

Here in the United States, we have a place called Florida. Florida has
a device they affectionately dub "Ol' Sparky". The electrodes of said
device, are connected (H) to your head, (N) to your left leg, a
parallel (H) around your upper torso to your spine and (N) to your
right arm. Current is then applied in bursts of 60 seconds, 30 seconds
and again at 60 seconds. The reason for turning it on and off like that
is to keep the body from catching fire, while insuring that the poor
mook is "most sincerely dead." In the early days, several individuals
did indeed burst into flames.

---
While "Ol' Sparky" makes sure that the the individual is, in fact,
cooked, death probably occurs because of ventricular fibrillation
long before anything even gets warm.
---

I saw one post in here which used Ohms law to show Vdrop/foot of copper
wire. Good math, and indeed correct for DC. AC however has
significantly lower losses in copper wire.

---
Sorry, that's wrong. For a resistive load, the loss in the cable
will be the same for AC as for DC.
---

in order to do the
equivalent calculation for AC, one would need to calculate for Z
(impedance). In any but the most extreme cases, copper wire offers
almost no noticeable impedance.

---
Wrong again. For a series circuit:


Z = sqrt (R² + (Xl)²)


Where Z is the impedance of the line,
R is the resistance of the line, and
Xl is the inductive reactance of the line.


The inductive reactance, Xl is defined as:


Xl = 2pi f L

Where f is the frequency of the sinusoidal waveform on the line, and
L is the inductance of the line,

So it's easy to see that Xl goes with frequency.


Consequently, for DC the impedance of the line will be its
resistance, while for AC the inductive reactance has to be taken
into consideration and the impedance of the line will _always_ be
greater for AC than for DC.
---

Can you imagine what the energy loss
and ensuant heat dissapation would be, in long wire runs, from
substations in rural areas, were this not so?

---
And, wrong once again!

The reason those losses aren't that great isn't because AC somehow
lowers the impedance of the line, (which it doesn't, as I showed
earlier,) it's because power is transmitted over long distances at
high voltages and low currents and then, at the load end of the
line, transformed down to the familiar 240V/120V we see in our
homes.

 

[John Fields]

You mean a Brit? I don't have any sons.

---
I thought you didn't care for precision in verbal discourse...
Clearly you understood what I meant, so what's the bullshit for?
---

And I don't like poetry or believe in god, so [ignores]

---
You get a little more unsavory with each post, don't you?

Kinda like:



The Beatles

Mean Mr. Mustard

by Unknown

Mean Mr. Mustard sleeps in the park
Shaves in the dark
Trying to save paper

Sleeps in a hole in the road
Saving up to buy some clothes
Keeps a ten-bob note up his nose

Such a mean old man
Such a mean old man

His sister Pam works in a shop
She never stops
She's a go-getter

Takes him out to look at the queen
Only place that he's ever been
Always shouts out something obscene

Such a dirty old man
Dirty old man

 

[Peter Hucker]

I took a guess. I wasn't sure if that's what you meant. What you used is presumably American slang, not an imprecise word.

And I don't like poetry or believe in god, so [ignores]

What now? Don't tell me you're religious? Please don't fall into the image I have of over-religious Americans....

Kinda like:



The Beatles

Mean Mr. Mustard

by Unknown

Mean Mr. Mustard sleeps in the park
Shaves in the dark
Trying to save paper

If you saw the wages we get over here......

Sleeps in a hole in the road
Saving up to buy some clothes
Keeps a ten-bob note up his nose

Such a mean old man
Such a mean old man

His sister Pam works in a shop
She never stops
She's a go-getter

Takes him out to look at the queen
Only place that he's ever been
Always shouts out something obscene

Such a dirty old man
Dirty old man

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

A woman sends her clothing out to the Chinese laundry. When it comes back there are still stains in her panties. The next week she encloses a note to the Chinaman that says, "Use more soap on panties."
This goes on for several weeks, the woman sending the same note to the laundry.
Finally fed up the Chinaman responded with his own note that said, "Use more paper on ass."

 

[John Fields]

I took a guess. I wasn't sure if that's what you meant. What you used is presumably American slang, not an imprecise word.

---
Well, for starters, since I didn't know anything about whether you
had kids or not, you should have known that and ruled it out.
Second, since the lyrics are from an "Animals" song and they're
Brits, ("your boys") I thought you might be able to put two and two
together and relate the "Oh Lord, please don't let me be
misunderstood." part to why it's important to be precise when
communicating using the written word. Obviously, I was wrong.
---

And I don't like poetry or believe in god, so [ignores]

What now? Don't tell me you're religious? Please don't fall into the image I have of over-religious Americans....

---
Well, now, another little nasty raises its ugly head!

Just how would you classify "over-religious"?

Not quite adhering to your rules for what should be religiously
"proper"?

Seems like we solved that little problem about 400 years ago...

---

If you saw the wages we get over here......

---
Geez, and here I thought you guys had free medical care and all
kinds of free social stuff like that to compensate for less
disposable income.

I guess those outlets that keep you from getting shocked come at a
price, huh?

 

[John Fields]

John, I wouldn't have taken you to be an "Animals" fan...

---
I wasn't, much, but I've always remembered the "Oh Lord, please
don't let me be misunderstood." lyric.

My favorites, back then, were Jefferson Airplane, Greatful Dead,
Janis, Procol Harum, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Hendrix, Rotary
Connection,... and, Beatles and Stones.

And, Country Joe and The Fish, and on and on...

Nothing quite like listening to the Dead in Central Park, free,
behind a hit of blotter.

 

[Peter Hucker]

---
Well, for starters, since I didn't know anything about whether you
had kids or not, you should have known that and ruled it out.
Second, since the lyrics are from an "Animals" song and they're
Brits, ("your boys") I thought you might be able to put two and two
together

Well I did guess right.

and relate the "Oh Lord, please don't let me be
misunderstood." part to why it's important to be precise when
communicating using the written word. Obviously, I was wrong.

You underestimated my laziness.

And I don't like poetry or believe in god, so [ignores]

What now? Don't tell me you're religious? Please don't fall into the image I have of over-religious Americans....

---
Well, now, another little nasty raises its ugly head!

Just how would you classify "over-religious"?

Not quite adhering to your rules for what should be religiously
"proper"?

Religiously proper is an oxymoron.

Seems like we solved that little problem about 400 years ago...
?

Yes there is a lot of free stuff. But the taxes to pay for it are horrendous.

I guess those outlets that keep you from getting shocked come at a
price, huh?

I never said our outlets stop us getting shocked.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

A baby was born that was so advanced that he could talk. He looked around the delivery room and saw the doctor.
"Are you my doctor?" he asked.
"Yes, I am."
The baby said "Thank you for taking such good care of me during birth."
He looked at his mother and asked, "Are you my mother?"
"Yes, I am," she said.
"Thank you for taking such good care of me before I was born" he said.
He then looked at his father and asked "Are you my father?"
"Yes, I am," his father answered.
The baby motioned him close, then poked him on the forehead with his index finger 5 times, saying "I want you to know that THAT HURTS!"

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

You've told me enough details to show it is less safe than the UK system in some respects. By the way I discussed it with an electrical engineer, and he told me the US system is terribly unsafe.

What do you expect? He's brainwashed, too.

Agreed, but more of the Americans are egotistical, and to a greater extent.

It only looks that way to Euro-wennies with no balls.

What on earth do you do with 48kW???

Electric heat, central air conditioning, electric water heater,
electric stove. Just because you have a 200 amp 240 VAC service doesn't
mean that you'll use all of it.

 

[Bob Monsen]

Nothing quite like listening to the Dead in Central Park, free, behind a
hit of blotter.

Those were simpler times, eh? No haircuts. Sex on tap. We all knew who the
enemy was (Nixon), and who not to trust (everybody over 30).

The only bit left from those days is the no haircuts part, and that is
only because my hair deserted me long ago...

('m currently listening to a recording of Keith Jarrett's Koln concert
from January, 1975... very nice)

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen

Intuition is the undoubting conception of a pure and attentive mind, which
arises from the light of reason alone, and is more certain than deduction.
- Descartes

 

[Peter Hucker]

What do you expect? He's brainwashed, too.

Explain to me how having a cord with a lower rating than the fuse protecting it is safe.

It only looks that way to Euro-wennies with no balls.

You're from Texas aren't you?

Electric heat, central air conditioning, electric water heater,
electric stove. Just because you have a 200 amp 240 VAC service doesn't
mean that you'll use all of it.

Agreed, but it's a little over the top isn't it? We have 80 amps, and even if we have electric heating (which most of us don't as gas is far cheaper) it ain't all used.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

A Jewish woman is sitting at a bar. A man approaches her.
"Hi, honey," he says. "Want a little company?"
"Why?" asks the woman. "Do you have one to sell?"

 

[Jasen Betts]

Generally, AC kills by power dissipation. In other words, your body,
which has a resistance impedes the flow of current, resulting in a
voltage drop. this causes the body to dissipate heat. In essence,
you're getting cooked.

It's that or it knocks your heart out of sync, into fibrilation(sp?)

I saw one post in here which used Ohms law to show Vdrop/foot of copper
wire. Good math, and indeed correct for DC. AC however has
significantly lower losses in copper wire.

bullshit. actually it's higher.

In order to do the equivalent calculation for AC, one would need to
calculate for Z (impedance).

only if the RMS current is not known, if it is only the resuistance is needed,

for all sensibly constructed wires R will be smaller than Z (which measn te
conductor will pass DC better than it passes AC.

In any but the most extreme cases, copper wire offers
almost no noticeable impedance. Can you imagine what the energy loss
and ensuant heat dissapation would be, in long wire runs, from
substations in rural areas, were this not so?

For realy long runs they use DC because the losses are less.

 

[John Fields]

Well I did guess right.

---
Hardly a guess unless you're blind to your own culture.
---

You underestimated my laziness.

---
I doubt it, since you certainly don't seem to have any problem
pounding on your keyboard. Rather, I think I _overestimated_ your
mental acuity.
---

Religiously proper is an oxymoron.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Explain to me how having a cord with a lower rating than the fuse protecting it is safe.

Peter, you need to study the AWG wire charts and the NEC regulations
to get a clue. The fusing current of the smaller wire is still higher
than the current rating of the fuse or circuit breaker that supplies it.

You're from Texas aren't you?

You're not even close. Can't you read a sig file? I grew up in
Ohio, and live in Florida. I'm a disabled veteran living by myself, and
I've never been to Texas.

Agreed, but it's a little over the top isn't it? We have 80 amps, and even if we have electric heating (which most of us don't as gas is far cheaper) it ain't all used.

You just don't get it, do you? In theory, I could have used
200*240*24*30, or 34560 KWh last month, but I only used a little over
600 KWh which is about average for me. A higher capacity service is
installed with heavier wire and fixtures which reduces line losses due
to resistance. Do you run the engine in your call at full speed all the
time? DO you turn every light in the house on all the time? Use some
common sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Michael

Your are correct that these sort of problems most often happen when the
installer is a fly by night using less than professional equipment.

Also note that in my remarks I had avoided speaking in absolutes since I did
not know for absolute fact that their where no other factors involved.

Albert

That was my point. The media always blames the PA system or anything
they can think of before anything is tested to find the real cause. For
example: A man I used to work for serviced school fire alarms as a side
business. He was on a call one day and got a shock from a piece of
conduit that supplied power to the service outlet next to the alarm
cabinet. He took a piece of wire and touched it to the grounded alarm
cabinet and the bare metal outlet box and tripped the breaker. They
called their maintenance people in to find that it had 120 VAC on it and
it was traced to some damage where the conduit had separated, and the
insulation was worn off the black wire. There was no green bonding wire
in the conduit, so the rest of the run downstream was hot. Multiple
factors caused the fault, but it could have killed someone. It turned
out that kids were jumping up and grabbing the conduit at a bend and
hanging on them to show off, and had finally pulled the screws out of
the ceiling that held it in place.