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Unidentified machine - any ideas?

A

Adrian Tuddenham

Jan 1, 1970
0
A lady who is now retired, but used to work in a job which took her
regularly between Britain and America, has given me some pictures of a
machine which she was asked to photograph in America about 20 years ago
(or more?). She never knew what the machine was or what it did, but she
understood it was a prototype for something which was being patented at
the time.

I have scanned the pictures in detail and uploaded them to:

http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC1.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC2.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC3.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC4.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC5.jpg

....they are all different views of the same machine.

Does anyone have any idea what it might have been?
 
N

nospam

Jan 1, 1970
0
...they are all different views of the same machine.

Does anyone have any idea what it might have been?

Looks like a reel to reel tape recorder with 5 'reels', and looks more than
20 years old.
--
 
J

Jasen Betts

Jan 1, 1970
0
A lady who is now retired, but used to work in a job which took her
regularly between Britain and America, has given me some pictures of a
machine which she was asked to photograph in America about 20 years ago
(or more?). She never knew what the machine was or what it did, but she
understood it was a prototype for something which was being patented at
the time.

I have scanned the pictures in detail and uploaded them to:

http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC1.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC2.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC3.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC4.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC5.jpg

...they are all different views of the same machine.

Does anyone have any idea what it might have been?


It looks like a tape recorder, and it looks like no tape recorder I
have ever seen!


in photo 1 there are two stacks of platters with what appears to be
coils of 1/4" magnetic tape sitting on them and feeding out over rollers
underneath the stacks are two motors with solenoids that work brakes
(or clutches?) and a panel with 4 trimpots,

photo 2 is a close-up of the platters , on the left the idlers that
keep the tape tight can be seen in different positions.

3 seems to be a photp of the same machine from above with the platters
and tape removed. at the bottom of the image what looks like the bit
with the tape heads in it to the right and above an arm with unknown
purpose.

4 from 45 dedrees to the right of photo 1 with the platters removed
we see into the tape heads enclosure. and a braced structure with a
handle in-font of the tape heads

5 from behind (135degrees right of photo 1) we see tape loaded and the
motor with a flywheel (or possibly some sort of govenor) on the bottom
that drive the pinch rollers that maintain the speed the tape runs at.

the "handle" which was horizontal in 4 has been tilted up perhaps
releasing pressure pads in the braced structure to hold the tape
against the heads.


I don't think a machine like this would keep good enough
synchronisation to play synchronised tracks from all the tapes
symultaneously so I don't judge it to be a multi-track player.

possibly this was a machine to duplicate (well, pentuplicate) 1/4"
audio tape

I didn't find the patent on-line (but I didn't search hard)

Bye.
Jasen
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't think a machine like this would keep good enough
synchronisation to play synchronised tracks from all the tapes
symultaneously so I don't judge it to be a multi-track player.

possibly this was a machine to duplicate (well, pentuplicate) 1/4"
audio tape

I didn't find the patent on-line (but I didn't search hard)

Bye.
Jasen

Thuis remind me of some machine we had at the studio, IIRC its purpose was to record
x number of programs for archive.
The pots at the front would be record level perhaps?
Some NSA gadget of old times, tape 10 phone conversations, things like that perhaps.
But I think ours had one very wide tape with a whole bunch of heads...
IIRC it was often kaput too..
 
A

Ancient_Hacker

Jan 1, 1970
0
Looks like one of those machines to play recorded messages over the
phone. You could have X messages. Or one message with X variations.
With a little switching maybe it could tell the time.

Technology looks more like 45 to 55 years old.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
nospam said:
Looks like a reel to reel tape recorder with 5 'reels', and looks more than
20 years old.

Maybe an early tape duplicating machine or archival (like 911) recorder.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jasen said:
I don't think a machine like this would keep good enough
synchronisation to play synchronised tracks from all the tapes
symultaneously so I don't judge it to be a multi-track player.

Indeed, it was never done like that, they simply made the tape and heads
wider/taller.

Graham
 
M

Martin Riddle

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Ferrell said:
I see a prototype for an IBM RAMAC disk drive. I never saw one with
dual spindles though. The magnets on the drive motors would be brakes
and the head (it moved platter to platter) is at the bottom of the
upper right platter. My guess at the time frame would be early to mid
1950's.

John Ferrell W8CCW


If I look at it longer, I might see something else?

My first thought was some type of DAT tape reader/writer/formatter, if
its 20yrs.

Cheers
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Martin said:
My first thought was some type of DAT tape reader/writer/formatter, if
its 20yrs.

DAT used smaller tape. I'll bet that's 1/4" shown. Besides DAT was formatted
on the fly IIRC.

Graham
 
A

Adrian Tuddenham

Jan 1, 1970
0
Adrian Tuddenham said:
A lady who is now retired, but used to work in a job which took her
regularly between Britain and America, has given me some pictures of a
machine which she was asked to photograph in America about 20 years ago
(or more?).

She has now remembered further, more accurate, information:

The machine wasn't in America, it was in the American Sector of Germany
at Heidelberg - and she photographed it at least 50 years ago. She
thinks that one of the people involved in the design of the machine was
named 'Prentice'.


My own comments, for what they are worth, are:

1) The 'spools' do not appear to have hubs, so tape winding would not
have been possible. Therefore I do not think they were tape spools and
I do not think that tape was involved. Picture MC5.jpg appears to
include tape loops, but closer inspection of the perspective around the
top and second discs of the stack shows that this is just an optical
illusion.

2) The motors would have run at around 300 rpm or 1500 rpm (depending
on the number of poles), so would the stack of discs. This explains the
need for a top bearing to stabilise the stack and solenoid brakes to
stop the rotation fairly quickly.

3) The bottom disc in MC1.jpg and MC5.jpg is level with the camera.
From this it appears that the item on the end of the arm was not able to
move across the surface of the disc, but might have made contact with
the outer edge. These items could be tape heads in mu-metal cans.


By putting together all the information we have so far, and with some
knowledge of the way the computer industry was developing at the time, I
wonder if this might have been a dynamic memory similar to a drum store
but with easily replaceable disc stacks.
 
A

Adrian Tuddenham

Jan 1, 1970
0
Adrian Tuddenham said:
A lady who is now retired, but used to work in a job which took her
regularly between Britain and America, has given me some pictures of a
machine which she was asked to photograph in America about 20 years ago
(or more?).

She has now remembered further, more accurate, information:

The machine wasn't in America, it was in the American Sector of Germany
at Heidelberg - and she photographed it at least 50 years ago. She
thinks that one of the people involved in the design of the machine was
named 'Prentice'.


My own comments, for what they are worth, are:

1) The 'spools' do not appear to have hubs, so tape winding would not
have been possible. Therefore I do not think they were tape spools and
I do not think that tape was involved. Picture MC5.jpg appears to
include tape loops, but closer inspection of the perspective around the
top and second discs of the stack shows that this is just an optical
illusion.

2) The motors would have run at around 3000 rpm or 1500 rpm (depending
on the number of poles), so would the stack of discs. This explains the
need for a top bearing to stabilise the stack and solenoid brakes to
stop the rotation fairly quickly.

3) The bottom disc in MC1.jpg and MC5.jpg is level with the camera.
From this it appears that the item on the end of the arm was not able to
move across the surface of the disc, but might have made contact with
the outer edge. These items could be tape heads in mu-metal cans.


By putting together all the information we have so far, and with some
knowledge of the way the computer industry was developing at the time, I
wonder if this might have been a dynamic memory similar to a drum store
but with easily replaceable disc stacks.
 
L

legg

Jan 1, 1970
0
A lady who is now retired, but used to work in a job which took her
regularly between Britain and America, has given me some pictures of a
machine which she was asked to photograph in America about 20 years ago
(or more?). She never knew what the machine was or what it did, but she
understood it was a prototype for something which was being patented at
the time.

I have scanned the pictures in detail and uploaded them to:

http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC1.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC2.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC3.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC4.jpg
http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/other/images/MC5.jpg

...they are all different views of the same machine.

Does anyone have any idea what it might have been?

Too fragile to have an industrial slitting application.

RL
 
A

Adrian Tuddenham

Jan 1, 1970
0
How did you come to this conclusion for a picture ?

The motors look typical of 2 and 4-pole induction motors of that era.
European mains is 50c/s, so the off-load speeds would be 3000 or 1500
rpm.

If they were geared down or slow-running multi-pole types (very unusual
indeed for that period before stepper motors), they would not need
brakes.
 
J

Jasen Betts

Jan 1, 1970
0
She has now remembered further, more accurate, information:

The machine wasn't in America, it was in the American Sector of Germany
at Heidelberg - and she photographed it at least 50 years ago. She
thinks that one of the people involved in the design of the machine was
named 'Prentice'.


My own comments, for what they are worth, are:

1) The 'spools' do not appear to have hubs, so tape winding would not
have been possible.

they are not spools they are platters (the is no upper wall visible
just the lower platform) I see hubs, approvimitely 6x the diameter of
the axle. in mc1 you can see the end of the tape sticking up from the
hub of both lower platters,

in the first photo see the tape running past slack ajusters and ilder
rollers to the left of the plattrr column (this idler column is the column to the far right of MC3)
Therefore I do not think they were tape spools and
I do not think that tape was involved. Picture MC5.jpg appears to
include tape loops, but closer inspection of the perspective around the
top and second discs of the stack shows that this is just an optical
illusion.

??? the top and second disks appear to be holding less tape than the
other three disks, the machine would not run like this, but it's
possible it was staged for the photo shoot.
2) The motors would have run at around 3000 rpm or 1500 rpm (depending
on the number of poles), so would the stack of discs. This explains the
need for a top bearing to stabilise the stack and solenoid brakes to
stop the rotation fairly quickly.

assuming they are squirrel-cage motors and not allowed to slip, also
assuming the hubs are fixed rigidly to the axle and the axle is fixed
ridigly to the motor, - that's a lot of assumptions.

the motors seem oversized, perhaps they are being run at lower than
normal voltage and allowed to slip,. running at a low speed.
3) The bottom disc in MC1.jpg and MC5.jpg is level with the camera.
From this it appears that the item on the end of the arm was not able to
move across the surface of the disc, but might have made contact with
the outer edge. These items could be tape heads in mu-metal cans.

the item on the end of the arm appears to me to be a roller that stops
the machine when it is moved by a full layer of tape.
By putting together all the information we have so far, and with some
knowledge of the way the computer industry was developing at the time, I
wonder if this might have been a dynamic memory similar to a drum store
but with easily replaceable disc stacks.

why use the edge of several widely spaced disks instead of a drum.

Bye.
Jasen
 
A

Adrian Tuddenham

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jasen Betts said:
they are not spools they are platters (the is no upper wall visible
just the lower platform) I see hubs, approvimitely 6x the diameter of
the axle. in mc1 you can see the end of the tape sticking up from the
hub of both lower platters,

Yes, that could be a pile of tape.
??? the top and second disks appear to be holding less tape than the
other three disks, the machine would not run like this, but it's
possible it was staged for the photo shoot.

The whole session was definitely 'staged'; the photographer has told me
that she remembers using an open shutter and 'painting' the machine with
light to get the best possible picture.

assuming they are squirrel-cage motors and not allowed to slip, also
assuming the hubs are fixed rigidly to the axle and the axle is fixed
ridigly to the motor, - that's a lot of assumptions.

the motors seem oversized, perhaps they are being run at lower than
normal voltage and allowed to slip,. running at a low speed.

They do appear to be direct drive with no gearing or belts, but they
might be DC motors and have brushgear which is not visible. If the
machine handles tape, mechanical slip would have to take place between
each individual 'platter' and the shaft, otherwise how would it cope
with slight differences in rotational speeds as the tape stacks built
up?

There appears to be a third motor of a larger type which, if the machine
does handle tape, could be the capstan motor. (See: MC5.jpg)
the item on the end of the arm appears to me to be a roller that stops
the machine when it is moved by a full layer of tape.

It seems a bit elaborate for that, but it might just be a tape guide
roller.

why use the edge of several widely spaced disks instead of a drum.

To save magnetic material/inertia/storage space? To allow space for the
head shields? To give independent interchange of discs and data?
 
N

nospam

Jan 1, 1970
0
There appears to be a third motor of a larger type which, if the machine
does handle tape, could be the capstan motor. (See: MC5.jpg)

Yes and the big lump on the bottom is probably a centrifugal speed
regulator.

It is a 5 reel tape recorder. The interesting questions are :-

Why not have one wide tape? Because they could utilise off the shelf 1/4"
tape and read/write/erase heads perhaps?

Why not use 5 complete off the shelf tape recorders? Because there were
size/packaging restrictions? Perhaps it was a portable data recorder for
use on a vehicle or plane?

Changing tape looks very impractical so I guess it was intended to record
something and play it back once.

The only other thing I can think of is some strange serial tape to tape to
tape data processing storage device but the above questions still apply.
--
 
J

JosephKK

Jan 1, 1970
0
She has now remembered further, more accurate, information:

The machine wasn't in America, it was in the American Sector of Germany
at Heidelberg - and she photographed it at least 50 years ago. She
thinks that one of the people involved in the design of the machine was
named 'Prentice'.


My own comments, for what they are worth, are:

1) The 'spools' do not appear to have hubs, so tape winding would not
have been possible. Therefore I do not think they were tape spools and
I do not think that tape was involved. Picture MC5.jpg appears to
include tape loops, but closer inspection of the perspective around the
top and second discs of the stack shows that this is just an optical
illusion.

2) The motors would have run at around 3000 rpm or 1500 rpm (depending
on the number of poles), so would the stack of discs. This explains the
need for a top bearing to stabilise the stack and solenoid brakes to
stop the rotation fairly quickly.

3) The bottom disc in MC1.jpg and MC5.jpg is level with the camera.
From this it appears that the item on the end of the arm was not able to
move across the surface of the disc, but might have made contact with
the outer edge. These items could be tape heads in mu-metal cans.


By putting together all the information we have so far, and with some
knowledge of the way the computer industry was developing at the time, I
wonder if this might have been a dynamic memory similar to a drum store
but with easily replaceable disc stacks.

Ah-ha. it is a very early disk drive.
 
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