TV repairs future

[Claudio-Brazil]

Hello friends!
I'm a brazilian repair technician and I'm worried about our future.
The tendence is production of disposable equipaments.
How about your countries?
How is the repair market?

 

[Sofie]

Claudio:
Do you really have to ask??
Seriously, the consumer electronics repair business, all around the world,
sucks.... mainly because of the cheap Chinese and Korean products that are
flooding the market place..... even under the brand name labels that had
earned customer trust in the past.
There are still a group of customers who will not buy such cheap crap and
will pay more money to purchase better quality, more features, better
performance, etc.... and these are the type of customers that are the core
of the repair shop business. Most shops that have stayed in business in
the last few years have found a specific area to specialize in like:
home theatre
rear projection
security
automotive sound
satellite
vintage stereo and phonograph
home service calls
home installation
etc
Good luck to you in Brazil..

 

[Jerry G.]

In the future, only the very high end TV's are going to be worth to repair,
or even going to be supported for repair. Infact, it is has been getting
more like this now. This is the same for the VCR's, CD players, DVD players,
and many types of home entertainment equipment.

Many of the sets are very low in cost, and are not worth to service. The
manufactures don't even want to have the expense of keeping inventories for
these types of parts.

When I see a VCR in the stores that is selling for $89 with S-Video, and all
kinds of options that were only on the very expensive models, I can see that
there will be no future to service this. The parts and labour for a medium
type repair would coast more than the value of the machine when it is a few
years old. Most of these machines will last about 3 years on the average. It
is more probable that some mechanical parts will fail before the
electronics. The problem is that the manufactures will most likely not have
replacement parts available, due to the fact, that the cost would be too
high.

Over here the labour cost can average about $35 per hour in a shop. If the
customer has to pay for at least one hour at that rate, and maybe about $30
to $50 for some parts, the total cost would exceed the cost of a new
machine. If the customer has a very high end VCR or DVD player that cost him
over $300 or so, and it is not too old, then he may decide to spend some
money to repair it. But, as time goes on, there are better machines
available at a lower cost. With a new machine, there is also a new warranty
to take in to consideration.

I have tried the newer VCRs' in the price range of about $100. For the price
they will out perform an older machine of about 3 years ago that was about
three times the price. They are mechanically not as well built, but I would
not look at this as a priority since the machine is going to sit in a
cabinet or on the shelf. After about 3 years a new one will be wanted.

I would seriously not go in to the repair business, if I was going to be
working on consumer products. More and more the new products are being
designed as disposable.

This also goes for home appliances, such as stoves, refrigerators, washing
machines, dryers, and etc. The manufactures will handle the warranties for
these, and after that, then they are usually not worth to repair.

We had a stove that worked for 15 years. In the end, it was starting to
fail. I changed a burner, and a heating element in the oven. One day, my
wife went to bake a cake, and the new oven element didn't want to start up.
I pulled the stove out, and found that the thermostat was not good any more.
Also the wiring looked very bad, and was starting to look like it was no
longer very safe.

I took the cake over to my mother's and let her finish it there. We later
went to a major appliance dealer, and bought a new stove. We had it
delivered within 24 hours, and we were okay again. I did the same for the
fridge as well. The compressor started to fail after about 15 years. We had
a new fridge within a few days. I didn't even bother ask about fixing this
one.

I spent most of my early working life in the service business. I would say
that about 20 years ago, it was a good way to make a living. These things
all paid to have service. The way things are made today, they are not
service friendly. The manufactures are usually reluctant to sell the service
manuals, and to have parts, it is mostly a time consuming task.

--

If you want to go in to a good business, try some type of industrial
systems, or something that is in large industry. Get in to high end products
that are servable, and where they are easily supported. I would leave the
consumer products to the consumer manufactures to deal with.

I gave up on consumer service for the most part...

--

Jerry G.
=====


Hello friends!
I'm a brazilian repair technician and I'm worried about our future.
The tendence is production of disposable equipaments.
How about your countries?
How is the repair market?

 

[b]

went to a major appliance dealer, and bought a new stove. We had it
delivered within 24 hours, and we were okay again. I did the same for the
fridge as well. The compressor started to fail after about 15 years. We had
a new fridge within a few days. I didn't even bother ask about fixing this
one.

Well Jerry, 15 years from any machine isn't bad!

To be fair, I find "White" goods like fridges, cookers etc almost
always outlive "brown" goods like TVs , stereos, VCRS etc.
'Repairability' varies:

Most fridges round here are dumped because : the door lining/seals
fail, they look tatty, handles and internal plastic mountigs break,
etc. In the case of my folks, the lower door hinge rotted due to
exposure to humidity. My mother- in- law has a frideg with ice
compartment from the late 1970s which is fine mechanically but the
ice-compartment flap is broken, altering the temperature of the rest
of the fridge. But the elctronics in both cases were fine. Wouldn't
like to imagine a price to replace the compressor though, mind
you....When that happens it is probably dump time.

Some microwaves last a long time also: we have a 20 year old toshiba
,still perfect, just had to change the bulb.I've repaired a few on the
cheap by cleaning, replacing switches/mica etc.

So I suppose with white goods, these are worth repairing if you can do
so cheaply by replacing "cosmetic" parts.

I hope that the environmental concerns surrounding this consumerism
will force governments and manufacturers to provide more support and
promote servicing as opposed to dumping. Otherwise we will soon be
living in a toxic landfill. We can't carry on ignoring the waste. We
can buy home entertainment products new for next to nothing, but the
cost in other ways could end up coming back to haunt us.

Dont know how accurate this is, I heard that the increasing growth of
Chinese industry has meant greater scarcity and /or demand for raw
materials, so this could make the situation even more pressing.

Ben

 

[Art]

Biggest problem seems to be the fact that we want quality equipment for low
$$. Then when it goes bad want instant repair or replacement, not
considering what happens after the original is relegated to the curb side
hopper. The average end user has absolutely no concept of what happens after
the items are introduced to the maggot wagon or recycling vehicle. Once it
is removed from their residence it is no longer their concern. Many devices
either contain materials that are detrimental to the environment or are
worth recycling because they contain precious metals, such as gold edge
connectors, etc. The average customer does not want to have to take their
devices, let alone their discharged batteries, to a recycling center to have
them properly disposed of. BTW how many people actually call a refrigeration
service company to retrieve the coolant from their rejected freezer and
fridges before putting out to pasture? That is the law in many areas the
coolant must be appropriately disposed of if not recycled, and the device be
properly tagged before disposal. Also seems that the manufacturers of the
electronic devices have fallen into the throw away syndrome, where cheap,
yes cheap, devices are marketed without any thought of service information
let alone parts. The consumer only sees a product, marketed at a very
incentive $$$ value, and buys it. When it fails, out to the curb side
facility again, the cycle repeats: al infiinitum. Sad to say, much of this
is to the chagrin of the professinal srvice companies and technicians.

 

[Ross Herbert]

|Biggest problem seems to be the fact that we want quality equipment for low
|$$. Then when it goes bad want instant repair or replacement, not
|considering what happens after the original is relegated to the curb side
|hopper. The average end user has absolutely no concept of what happens after
|the items are introduced to the maggot wagon or recycling vehicle. Once it
|is removed from their residence it is no longer their concern. Many devices
|either contain materials that are detrimental to the environment or are
|worth recycling because they contain precious metals, such as gold edge
|connectors, etc. The average customer does not want to have to take their
|devices, let alone their discharged batteries, to a recycling center to have
|them properly disposed of. BTW how many people actually call a refrigeration
|service company to retrieve the coolant from their rejected freezer and
|fridges before putting out to pasture? |That is the law in many areas the
|coolant must be appropriately disposed of if not recycled, and the device be
|properly tagged before disposal.

I agree, however it is never that simple with refrigerators.

When I was about to throw out my 20 year old frig I tried to get a
refrigeration technician to come and recover the refrigerant and the
cost was going to be enormous at around $140. Nobody really wanted to
be bothered with such menial tasks anyway and it seems they consider
it to be of minor importance. To their mind blowing off a kilo or so
of refrigerant into the atmosphere isn't a big deal and they equate it
to a blow off due to a refrigerant line fracture during normal
operation over which they have no control. The trouble they have to go
to to recover the refrigerant is too great despite what the
legislation says. During an installation of commercial refrigeration
equipment I have seen a tech blow off a few kilos of R22 into the
atmosphere after filling because a compression union was faulty or not
fitted correctly. It was going to take him a lot longer to set up to
recover the refrigerant and as long as there is no one around who is
going to dob them in they don't really care.

When you look at the logistics of what is involved in recovering
refrigerant from all the refrigerators which are put out on the kerb,
it would make more sense for the recovery to be performed after
collection at the recycling depot. This would be the most efiicient
and cost effective way to do it and a small fee of say $20 could be
charged for each refrigerator.

 

[James Sweet]

When I was about to throw out my 20 year old frig I tried to get a
refrigeration technician to come and recover the refrigerant and the
cost was going to be enormous at around $140. Nobody really wanted to
be bothered with such menial tasks anyway and it seems they consider
it to be of minor importance. To their mind blowing off a kilo or so
of refrigerant into the atmosphere isn't a big deal and they equate it
to a blow off due to a refrigerant line fracture during normal
operation over which they have no control. The trouble they have to go
to to recover the refrigerant is too great despite what the
legislation says. During an installation of commercial refrigeration
equipment I have seen a tech blow off a few kilos of R22 into the
atmosphere after filling because a compression union was faulty or not
fitted correctly. It was going to take him a lot longer to set up to
recover the refrigerant and as long as there is no one around who is
going to dob them in they don't really care.

Isn't R12 the only refrigerant that's particularly bad to release into the
atmosphere?

 

[L. Fiar]

Hello friends!
I'm a brazilian repair technician and I'm worried about our future.
The tendence is production of disposable equipaments.
How about your countries?
How is the repair market?

Hi, I am in England.

New equipment is so cheap here, but components can be so expensive. Much of
the time, the equipment is cheaper than the parts. Remote TVs with Teletext
and videos can be as cheap as about £50.
Back when I worked in TV service, a repair usually cost more than that.

Be ready to diversify, check out other areas of electronics and try to work
out where the money is now.
Good luck.

 

[Ross Herbert]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:24:40 GMT, "James Sweet"

|
|>
|> When I was about to throw out my 20 year old frig I tried to get a
|> refrigeration technician to come and recover the refrigerant and the
|> cost was going to be enormous at around $140. Nobody really wanted to
|> be bothered with such menial tasks anyway and it seems they consider
|> it to be of minor importance. To their mind blowing off a kilo or so
|> of refrigerant into the atmosphere isn't a big deal and they equate it
|> to a blow off due to a refrigerant line fracture during normal
|> operation over which they have no control. The trouble they have to go
|> to to recover the refrigerant is too great despite what the
|> legislation says. During an installation of commercial refrigeration
|> equipment I have seen a tech blow off a few kilos of R22 into the
|> atmosphere after filling because a compression union was faulty or not
|> fitted correctly. It was going to take him a lot longer to set up to
|> recover the refrigerant and as long as there is no one around who is
|> going to dob them in they don't really care.
|>
|
|
|Isn't R12 the only refrigerant that's particularly bad to release into the
|atmosphere?
|


Nope. In fact, R22 is probably the most common HCFC refrigerant used
in current or recent refrigeration (and heat pump) equipment.

The trend now is to move away from HCFC refrigerant types in the hope
that they will eventually be removed from the system.

See http://www.hrai.ca/hcfcphaseout/index.html

 

[Digi Man]

I work in Greece.
I used to repair those things for a living, but no more.
I repair almost all of my friends low cost 'disposable' machines for
environmental purposes in my free time.
I am now working on PLC for industry or for other home automation like
elevators, garden watering etc (mostly creating PLC for customer needs).

I will disagree with some people that say the White machine last longer from
Brown ones, because old White machines did not have electronics at all or
had simple ones with a transformer for power supply. All new ones that try
to be "GREEN" ones with level-A power consumsion have SMPS.

SMPS (with aged caps =>high ESR) is the reason for the early break down of
electronics.
I have told in the past in the same newsgroup that my opinion is that we
should service new machines with SMPS before they break down (eg replacing
caps with one service a year).

 

[Ross Herbert]

On the issue of capacitor failure in SMPS, I don't agree with your
proposition that in order to avoid the inevitable problems due to
capacitor failure the items should be serviced annually and the caps
replaced as a matter of course, ie. "before they break down".

Surely this defeats the intent of producing "green" domestic
appliances? If they are going to be mandatorily serviced annually and
capacitors in the SMPS replaced as a matter of course, surely the
energy and resources consumed in performing this operation is
contradicting one of the fundamental principles of "green" appliances,
ie. adding to energy consumption related to each appliance so
serviced.

In my opinion a "green" appliance should not only be efficient in
energy consumption, but also efficient in reliability since this
factor has a major influence on overall energy consumption for the
lifetime of the item. Just imagine, Mrs Brown has bought her XYZ
machine (with SMPS) 12 months ago and she now has to book it in for
service and changing the SMPS caps. This may be performed insitu in
which case a service tech drives out to the location and removes the
PSU and replaces the caps, or alternatively, where possible, swaps the
PSU with a replacement, and then drives back to the workshop. A round
trip like this needlessly consumes energy and further pollutes the
environment to say nothing of the actual dollar cost of the service to
the customer. Considering the millions of appliances in the world, it
would add great costs to the energy budget and at the same time
increase stress on the environment. No doubt it would produce a great
deal of employment for service repair techs, but, at what cost?

I know there are cost constraints in building with high reliability
components but if we know the caps are likely to fail in the SMPS
within a short time by only looking at the bottom line and saving
costs by fitting bog standard components in the first place, then
surely the customer is not going to continue to support a brand when
he knows the ongoing maintenance cost is going to be high. It is a
self defeating proposition in my opinion and it is far better to "do
it right first time".

No, the real secret is to build SMPS with good layout to reduce heat
in these components and using high reliability "long life" capacitors.
Sure, the initial cost is greater than if bog standard caps are used,
but it is my experience that a well designed SMPS like this will
perform reliably for many years. I have some SMPS's designed properly
(good layout, plenty of ventilation and long life low ESR caps) which
are 15 years old and the caps are still going strong.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:23:38 +0300, "Digi Man"

|I work in Greece.
|I used to repair those things for a living, but no more.
|I repair almost all of my friends low cost 'disposable' machines for
|environmental purposes in my free time.
|I am now working on PLC for industry or for other home automation like
|elevators, garden watering etc (mostly creating PLC for customer needs).
|
|I will disagree with some people that say the White machine last longer from
|Brown ones, because old White machines did not have electronics at all or
|had simple ones with a transformer for power supply. All new ones that try
|to be "GREEN" ones with level-A power consumsion have SMPS.
|
|SMPS (with aged caps =>high ESR) is the reason for the early break down of
|electronics.
|I have told in the past in the same newsgroup that my opinion is that we
|should service new machines with SMPS before they break down (eg replacing
|caps with one service a year).
|
|
||> Hello friends!
|> I'm a brazilian repair technician and I'm worried about our future.
|> The tendence is production of disposable equipaments.
|> How about your countries?
|> How is the repair market?
|

 

[Digi Man]

Then why do we buy cars? cars need service before break down.
The expensive models of a brank A will have to be serviced every 60000 Km,
but the cheaps ones of brand B every 20000Km.
Maybe it's cheap and reliable enough to by brand B than brand A.
Otherwise we would have Mercedes only and names like Ford, Subaru,Skoda...
should not exist.

Every manufacturer could give a before-break-down service time table.
Manufacturers could make spare parts user exchangable (in case of a PSU for
example), so user buys a new part and send back the old one exchange.

Why a family man who spends a lot of money to let his family live, buy an
expensive refrigerator hopping that it will last (and kill the small
manufacturers that are trying to make good staff will small prices)?
Why should I buy components from digikey, the most expensive supermarket in
the planet? Do you thing it sells better parts than others?

You cannot produce machines for people with a lot of money only.
People that buy cheap know that they will pay in the future again (service
or new machine).
It's like paying a big amount you cannot afford with a credit card.