Troubleshooting Question

[J P Shull III]

10-20 openings on one zone. Intermit falsing. Need step by step
troubleshooting guide. Special Tools? Mine don't seem to work. Same for
10-20 openings one wire to panel.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

10-20 openings on one zone. Intermit falsing.

What kind of detectors are in the problem zone? If you have more than one
detector in the loop you may need to separate them to find the problem unit.
What is the total resistance of the total loop? Check with an Ohm meter.

If the wiring is OK, you'll need to test each detector. The procedure
depends on the type and model of detector(s) in the loop. If you post what
you're using I can give more specific instructions.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

10-20 openings on one zone. Intermit falsing. Need step by step
troubleshooting guide. Special Tools? Mine don't seem to work. Same for
10-20 openings one wire to panel.
Thanks in advance.

First off, determine exactly how many openings you're dealing with and what
kind of contacts. Check each contact individually and make sure the magnets
line up. I've seen some instances where self-adhering surface magnets have
worked loose (or the backing has been exposed to moisture) and have moved
far enough away from the contact that an intermittent "open" will occur. On
some recessed contacts, the door or window frame may have warped enough to
cause the same condition. In the latter case a simple "fix" is to insert a
flat-head screw next to the magnet (on the side closest to the contact when
the opening is closed/locked) that's (at the most) half the length of the
recessed magnet. This will change the magnetic field in such a way as to
bring it "closer" to the contact.

By all means check the loop resistance as Robert Bass has suggested. This
would determine whether-or-not you have a wiring problem caused by corrosion
or a poor connection. Have someone stand at the panel while you go around
and "thump" all the openings. If your meter "twitches" at any one, I'd
first suggest replacing the magnet or repositioning the existing one. If
the problem persists after you've done this it's time to pull the contact
and replace it.

After you've done all this, it's time to break the circuit. Start in the
middle and work your way to the ends. If you have to replace every single
contact. It sounds to me like this system was either installed by an
individual that received about an hour's worth of instruction over the phone
or it's an old system of the type that employed a single loop for
everthing... "Micropulse" comes to mind...

Good luck!!!

 

[Crash Gordon®]

A latching toner helps turn this into a one man job too.

Also with ohmmeter check for shorts to window frames or ground.

 

[Frank Olson]

A latching toner helps turn this into a one man job too.

Agreed, but I wanted to offer a solution that didn't involve having the OP
buy more equipment. I always liked the "cheap fix" when it comes to DIY...
)

Also with ohmmeter check for shorts to window frames or ground.

Excellent point, "Crash", but I think a "ground" in a loop in a wood frame
type house is a pretty "long shot"... I'm saying it's possible, just not
likely. Mind you the OP hasn't mentioned where this system is installed
either... Hmmmmm!!!

I did have a customer bang a nail into a wall once (to hang a picture) and
have the misfortune of nicking the wire to a motion detector on the same
wall. The unit powered down and the zone remained "open". What made
matters worse was that the installation was a take-over from another
company's pre-wire. That house was an outstanding example of how *not* to
pre-wire for a security system, and the "right way" to troubleshoot because
our service guy had the presence of mind to ask the question: "And what
have you been doing recently?". )

 

[Crash Gordon®]

inline...

Agreed, but I wanted to offer a solution that didn't involve having the OP
buy more equipment. I always liked the "cheap fix" when it comes to DIY...
)

I had a homeowner call me all pissed off because a three letter company was trying to install on my prewire and switches..he insisted that I go find out why none of the switches I installed the 2 days before were not working now. UH...ok. I couldn't stand his whining so I told him I'd come for free but if it was something the installing company did then he'd have to pay for my trip. So I get there and surefucking enough every one of my switches were coming up open. So, I asked a few questions...like how was this guy testing the loops? Did you hear him using a little toner or was it a real loud sound.. OH...it was a real loud sound - it was the siren. The siren? There's not even a panel installed yet!....Yes folks the guy was using the siren and a 12v 7 AMP battery to test the switches. Thank you very much...would you like to pay me for the service call now?...or have me install the system properly? UHHHHH.

Excellent point, "Crash", but I think a "ground" in a loop in a wood frame
type house is a pretty "long shot"... I'm saying it's possible, just not
likely. Mind you the OP hasn't mentioned where this system is installed
either... Hmmmmm!!!

Welp...we have wood frame construction here with strandboard over the sticks then foam then CHICKEN wire the chicken wire ends up being grounded and so do the aluminum window frames...so it happens here a LOT.

I did have a customer bang a nail into a wall once (to hang a picture) and
have the misfortune of nicking the wire to a motion detector on the same
wall. The unit powered down and the zone remained "open". What made
matters worse was that the installation was a take-over from another
company's pre-wire. That house was an outstanding example of how *not* to
pre-wire for a security system, and the "right way" to troubleshoot because
our service guy had the presence of mind to ask the question: "And what
have you been doing recently?". )

I've had an entire house electrified once when the chicken wire (see above) staples penetrated the foam and right into the back of a single gang electrical outlet...I noticed I was getting jolted when I tried to remove and replace a bad switch. I called the builder, they sent electrician...who inturn called the gas company..you guessed it...they had to evacuate the family and a few surrounding homes...one little staple. The entire house was hot...every window frame was reading 120vac. Very nice.

 

[alarman]

A latching toner helps turn this into a one man job too.

Also with ohmmeter check for shorts to window frames or ground.

Good point. Most guys don't check that, and it's fairly common to find a
ground fault.
js

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Yep. I read loop resistance on every zone when I do yearly inspections and write it in the alarm can...helps troubleshoot over the years if you see the resistance rising on a loop sometimes you can nip a problem in the bud.

 

[J P Shull III]

Great Answer!!!
I usually check the magnets for alignment first as suggested. I wonder what
the resistence should be? I use a toner to check continuity and determine
which cable is which opening.
Most of these are Prewires done by the company that does more than any other
in the US. About 70% of them have problems.
Thanks again!!!
JP

Yep. I read loop resistance on every zone when I do yearly inspections and
write it in the alarm can...helps troubleshoot over the years if you see the
resistance rising on a loop sometimes you can nip a problem in the bud.

 

[Crash Gordon®]

70% have problems...hmmmm...they do a great job eh?

Welp, take one new switch of the same manufacturer and measure it in closed state...then do a few calcs to figure what the loop resistance including the wire "should" be...you'll never be exact but if you track it over time you'll know if somethings going south.

You can also check it against another loop in the same system with similar amt of contacts if one is showing 2-4 ohms and the other is showing 15 you'll know. Also, you should know what the voltage should be on the particular panel you're working on on the zones...the manufacturer should tell you what normal voltage range should be on zones.

ps.. Progressive Electronics tracer/loop thingie is great for this stuff...particularly the one with the latching beeper...you connect it to the loop then go around banging on contacts...one guy can find a swinger (usually).



| Great Answer!!!
| I usually check the magnets for alignment first as suggested. I wonder what
| the resistence should be? I use a toner to check continuity and determine
| which cable is which opening.
| Most of these are Prewires done by the company that does more than any other
| in the US. About 70% of them have problems.
| Thanks again!!!
| JP
|
| | Yep. I read loop resistance on every zone when I do yearly inspections and
| write it in the alarm can...helps troubleshoot over the years if you see the
| resistance rising on a loop sometimes you can nip a problem in the bud.
|
|
| | > Crash Gordon® wrote:
| > > A latching toner helps turn this into a one man job too.
| > >
| > > Also with ohmmeter check for shorts to window frames or ground.
| >
| > Good point. Most guys don't check that, and it's fairly common to find a
| > ground fault.
| > js
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Mark Leuck]

Great Answer!!!
I usually check the magnets for alignment first as suggested. I wonder what
the resistence should be? I use a toner to check continuity and determine
which cable is which opening.
Most of these are Prewires done by the company that does more than any other
in the US. About 70% of them have problems.
Thanks again!!!
JP

Ranger American?