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tricky questions

T

Tucker

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi all, never been in this NG before, but I'm hoping someone would be kind
enough to help me out. I am moving into an apartment that has only 2 prong
outlets. My questions are.....

1) I can replace the plugs with 3 holed ones, and install ground wires to
the radiators, which then lead at some point to the main water pipes, so
it'll be grounded. Is there any fire danger associated with this?

2) I have heard of surge protectors that actually have fuses in them which
will trip and break the connection once the influx of power gets to high. Do
these work at all? Also, in this case, would i simply install the new
outlets,m NOT install a ground wire, and let this type of surge protector
handle the extra power in case of a spike or surge? Essentially, does this
type of surge protector REPLACE the requirement for a ground wire?

All in all, I'm concerned about safety for both myself and my equipment. Any
help would be greatly appreciated on this one, thanks all!

Tucker
 
Tucker said:
Hi all, never been in this NG before, but I'm hoping someone would be kind
enough to help me out. I am moving into an apartment that has only 2 prong
outlets. My questions are.....

1) I can replace the plugs with 3 holed ones, and install ground wires to
the radiators, which then lead at some point to the main water pipes, so
it'll be grounded. Is there any fire danger associated with this?

2) I have heard of surge protectors that actually have fuses in them which
will trip and break the connection once the influx of power gets to high. Do
these work at all? Also, in this case, would i simply install the new
outlets,m NOT install a ground wire, and let this type of surge protector
handle the extra power in case of a spike or surge? Essentially, does this
type of surge protector REPLACE the requirement for a ground wire?

All in all, I'm concerned about safety for both myself and my equipment. Any
help would be greatly appreciated on this one, thanks all!

Tucker

You can replace the two prong receptacles with GFCI
receptacles. Adding a three prong receptacle with
a wire to the radiator may or may not provide you
with a safety ground, but that would mean you were
altering the wiring in a building you don't own. I
don't think you want to go there.

You can't establish "ideal" surge protection. That
requires, at a minimum, installing a "whole house"
surge protector at the entry panel, and you don't
have the right to do that. You can get some protection
with point of use surge suppressers, or you could use a
UPS to power your equipment.

A surge protector NEVER replaces the requirement for
a ground wire at the receptacle. The ground is
there for your safety.
 
T

Tucker

Jan 1, 1970
0
You can replace the two prong receptacles with GFCI
receptacles. Adding a three prong receptacle with
a wire to the radiator may or may not provide you
with a safety ground, but that would mean you were
altering the wiring in a building you don't own. I
don't think you want to go there.

You can't establish "ideal" surge protection. That
requires, at a minimum, installing a "whole house"
surge protector at the entry panel, and you don't
have the right to do that. You can get some protection
with point of use surge suppressers, or you could use a
UPS to power your equipment.

A surge protector NEVER replaces the requirement for
a ground wire at the receptacle. The ground is
there for your safety.

Thanks for the reply.....in my research I found this page about GFCI
receptacles at the plug
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/section-34.html
if you scroll to the bottom it says this...
".....If you're in the situation of wanting to install computer
equipment on two wire groundless circuits take note:

Adding a GFCI outlet to the circuit makes the circuit safe for
you. But it doesn't make it safe for your equipment - you need
a ground to make surge suppressors or line filters effective...."

Now I'm more confused....if i simply replace the plugs and dont ground them,
i can at least plug in my surge protector, but because it isnt grounded, its
useless anyway, to my equipment.....I cant install something ideal at the
panel level.....i can wire to the radiator without necessarily telling my
landlord, which isnt great either BUT at least I could do that then test it
for groundedness, and at least Id know if it was grounded or not...this is
becoming quite a headache.

My very first thought was installing the ground wire in the three prong
receptacle and connecting it to the inside of the small metal box encasing
the entire affair, as I assume that must be grounded.

I hope I dont sound too dull in this matter...lol...its taken me days to
even understand some of the basic terms i seem to keep seeing in my
research.
 
S

SQLit

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tucker said:
Hi all, never been in this NG before, but I'm hoping someone would be kind
enough to help me out. I am moving into an apartment that has only 2 prong
outlets. My questions are.....

1) I can replace the plugs with 3 holed ones, and install ground wires to
the radiators, which then lead at some point to the main water pipes, so
it'll be grounded. Is there any fire danger associated with this?

2) I have heard of surge protectors that actually have fuses in them which
will trip and break the connection once the influx of power gets to high. Do
these work at all? Also, in this case, would i simply install the new
outlets,m NOT install a ground wire, and let this type of surge protector
handle the extra power in case of a spike or surge? Essentially, does this
type of surge protector REPLACE the requirement for a ground wire?

All in all, I'm concerned about safety for both myself and my equipment. Any
help would be greatly appreciated on this one, thanks all!

Tucker

Check the boxes for ground. You could use an ohm meter from the box to the
water pipe for example. If you read very low then they are grounded/bonded
together. Consult a electrician to be sure. Good grounding is the basis of a
good electrical system. 40+ years ago when 2 wire was installed, there were
very few if any electronics in the home.

If you really are worried about surges then you will need both a service
protector and a point of use protector. The IEEE states that you have to
have 2 out of the 3 protection areas to have protection. ( You do not need
to worry about the distribution class, that is for the utilities protection,
not you.
http://www.eatonelectrical.com/NASA.../CHHomeSearchResults&keyword=surge protection
this web page has some good reading, look about to get the best deal. Lots
of manufactures make this equipment.
The circuit breaker protection is way to slow for surge/spikes. Yes they
have a CB in the strip but that is for over load. Read the specs on the
strip. Your looking for something less than 350v let through. Runs in my
mind that mine are like 300v at my computer. The one I installed at the
service is like 700v. Do not get sucked into a 100k warranty for any more
money. You will never be able to prove what happened. So you will never
get the cash.
Secondly you can buy a UPS, expensive, if you get one with voltage and surge
protection included. The cheapy plug in models will not have voltage/surge
protection.
 
B

Brian Su

Jan 1, 1970
0
ok i'm just bored and very sleepy here so I'm going to post some
nonsense which you can ignore if you want coz they probably waste your
time :)

1) you don't want surges, etc.etc? use a generator which uses an
inverter to output the voltage? Cleaner than mains, no surges,
lightning etc.etc hehehehe.

2) If you want a good ground, connect to your house's metal water
pipes coz that's a very good source to ground to.

3) don't ever ground to gas pipes, they are illegal in most places :)
 
B

Beachcomber

Jan 1, 1970
0
Check the boxes for ground. You could use an ohm meter from the box to the
water pipe for example. If you read very low then they are grounded/bonded
together. Consult a electrician to be sure. Good grounding is the basis of a
good electrical system. 40+ years ago when 2 wire was installed, there were
very few if any electronics in the home.

I agree that the first thing you should do is check the boxes for a
ground, but not necessarily with an ohmmeter to a water pipe. For a
duplex outlet, loosen the screw that holds the cover plate on. Using
an AC voltmeter (or simple neon test lamp from a hardware store), you
should measure approximately full line voltage (or the lamp will
light) between one of the prongs of the plug and the center screw. In
some cases the head of the center screw might be plastic or coated
with paint. You need to get to the threaded metal part. If you can
take the plate off, an alternative ground test point is the screw in
either metal ear that holds the receptacle to the box.

If you do get this voltage, you can assume that the box is grounded.
Unfortunately, this test doesn't tell you the quality of the ground,
more elaborate testing is required for that. A lot of houses built in
the 50's and early 60's have grounded boxes, but only two wire
ungrounded receptacles. If this is the case for you, the easiest
method is to get a 3 wire receptacle to 2 wire adaptor plug with a
ground wire (or tab) which connects to the center screw.

This would be easier than rewiring the outlet completely with a 3
prong receptacle. I wouldn't do this unless I owned the premises,
could safely shut down the circuit when I was working on it, and knew
a little bit about wiring. Do you fit into that category?

If the wiring is really old, you may not have a ground at all.
Installing a GFCI - Ground Fault Circuit Interupter will give you a
little added bit of safety, but it will not give you a true ground for
you electronic devices.

Beachcomber
 
B

Bob Weiss

Jan 1, 1970
0
Beachcomber said:
Using an AC voltmeter (or simple neon test lamp from a hardware store), you
should measure approximately full line voltage (or the lamp will
light) between one of the prongs of the plug and the center screw.

This isn't a very reliable test at all.

Both a neon test light and a voltmeter will give an apparently good
reading even with a very high resistance ground path. A 100W
incandescent bulb would be a better test, as would the previously
mentioned ohmmeter check to the plumbing.

To be useful, you need a solid, low resistance ground connection.

Bob Weiss N2IXK
 
Tucker said:
Thanks for the reply.....in my research I found this page about GFCI
receptacles at the plug
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/section-34.html
if you scroll to the bottom it says this...
".....If you're in the situation of wanting to install computer
equipment on two wire groundless circuits take note:

Adding a GFCI outlet to the circuit makes the circuit safe for
you. But it doesn't make it safe for your equipment - you need
a ground to make surge suppressors or line filters effective...."

Now I'm more confused....if i simply replace the plugs and dont ground them,
i can at least plug in my surge protector, but because it isnt grounded, its
useless anyway, to my equipment.....I cant install something ideal at the
panel level.....i can wire to the radiator without necessarily telling my
landlord, which isnt great either BUT at least I could do that then test it
for groundedness, and at least Id know if it was grounded or not...this is
becoming quite a headache.


Yes - it is a headache, but it need not be.
GFCI comes first, for your safety, and has
nothing to do with surge protection. Next
comes a point of use surge protector or
a UPS, because that's all your situation
allows you to do.

That's it in a nutshell, but details are below if
you care to read them.

1) There is a myth that computers MUST be
protected from surges. Not true. Computers will work
fine with or without surge protection.
2) There is a myth that surge protectors are "effective"
where the word "effective" is misunderstood to mean
something like "100% safe from damage". Not true.
A surge can be powerful enough to overwhelm both
whole house and point of use protectors,

Surge protectors are like "crash tested" bumpers on your
car or air bags/seatbelts. Cars run just fine without them.
PC's run just fine without surge protectors. But a car
crash can be violent enough where the safety devices are
overwhelmed. Same is true of surge protectors - a large
enough surge can overwhelm them. A point of use surge
protector, whether grounded or not, provides a little
bit of protection - say roughly analogous to a "crash-tested"
bumper that will withstand a 5 mph impact. A whole house
protector provides much more protection - say roughly
analogous to the air bags/seatbelts.

In your case, the GFCI will protect you. It has nothing
to do with surge protection.

You cannot install whole house protection in your situation,
so that is not an option for you. Any wiring you could do would
also be out of the question, as you do not own the building.

A wire to the radiator connects you to the hot water pipes,
which may or may not be bonded to the cold water pipes.
The effectiveness of that "ground" is questionable, and
becomes more dubious, in terms of surge protection, when
you add in the impedance of the "add-on" wire and connection.
You again have the restriction that you don't own the building.

What does that leave you? You can add a point of use
surge suppresser or a UPS. If the receptacle into which
they plug is grounded, so much the better, but whether
it is or not, that appears to be your only options beyond
installing a GFCI. Those devices provide some protection.
Could you have a surge that would destroy them and the
equipment that plugs into them? Yes. Are they better
than nothing? Yes.

The three prong adapter mentioned in the thread is actually
a bad idea. If the metal box is in fact grounded even
though it has a two-prong receptacle, the adapter still
relies on an uncertain mechanical connection to present
a ground at its ground hole, and can create the false
assumption that a ground is present. Aside from that,
if the box is in fact grounded, it would be better
to install a 3-prong receptacle than an adapter.

Installing a GFCI will bring a ground to the ground hole
on the GFCI **if** the box is grounded and the GFCI is
properly installed. Proper installation includes connecting
a green or bare wire from the GFCI ground screw to the
metal box. The GFCI will still protect you if the metal
box is **not** grounded.
 
B

Ben Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
Beachcomber said:
I agree that the first thing you should do is check the boxes for a
ground, but not necessarily with an ohmmeter to a water pipe. For a
duplex outlet, loosen the screw that holds the cover plate on. Using
an AC voltmeter (or simple neon test lamp from a hardware store), you
should measure approximately full line voltage (or the lamp will
light) between one of the prongs of the plug and the center screw. In
some cases the head of the center screw might be plastic or coated
with paint. You need to get to the threaded metal part. If you can
take the plate off, an alternative ground test point is the screw in
either metal ear that holds the receptacle to the box.

Neither of those suggestions will indicate whether a ground is good or bad.
Both a voltmeter and a neon lamp will indicate almost full line voltage with
a very high ground resistance, leading to the false conclusion that there is
a "good" equipment ground path. The ohmmeter idea is not perfect, but far
better than your suggestions, and it doesn't require the op to open a box
and expose hazardous voltages.

Ben Miller
 
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