Maker Pro
Maker Pro

transistor pairing? or not?

swagguy8

Dec 10, 2014
73
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
73
hey guys, so back to my amplifier project, do i need to pair the two mosfets on the output level? i do realize there is a gain control resistor i was wondering if i could tune that instead of buying paired transistors.
 

Attachments

  • pairing.PNG
    pairing.PNG
    53.7 KB · Views: 266

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Jan 21, 2010
25,510
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
25,510
Do you mean matched?

From the look of the circuit I don't think it would be critical.
 

dorke

Jun 20, 2015
2,342
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
2,342
Definitely use paired Mosfets!
Unless you totally don't care about distortion :rolleyes:
 

BobK

Jan 5, 2010
7,682
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Messages
7,682
Feedback takes care of differences between the two output transistors. Are there matched power MOSFETs available?

Bob
 

dorke

Jun 20, 2015
2,342
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
2,342
Bob,
Not so ,the feedback can't take care of the transistors mismatch!
and yes there are paired power Mosfets see here
 

swagguy8

Dec 10, 2014
73
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
73
i'll probably use paired transistors, as it will cost at least 5 dollars more. thanks guys!
 

BobK

Jan 5, 2010
7,682
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Messages
7,682
Bob,
Not so ,the feedback can't take care of the transistors mismatch!
and yes there are paired power Mosfets see here
Yes it can. The feedback makes it essentially an op amp, with the output voltage being a ratio to the input voltage. There will still be distortion, and the intermediate signals could be quite distorted, but the output should follow the input quite well, even though the driving signals for the final stage will not.

That said, a matched pair does make it easier and will probably reduce the distortion.

Bob
 

dorke

Jun 20, 2015
2,342
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
2,342
i'll probably use paired transistors, as it will cost at least 5 dollars more. thanks guys!

What made you think you can use anything but a matched pair?
To any Hi-Fi audio (class AB complimantry) power amp the Output Stage matched pair is a fundamental MUST requirement !!!
That is critical for "ultra high-end " LM4702 type circuit performance .

Here is a TI app note(your circuit is taken from it) dealing mostly with the performance of matched pairs from different vendors.(there is a summary of performance comparison on page 27).
I think it will help you a lot.
AN-1645 : LM4702 Driving a MOSFET Output Stage
 
Last edited:

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Jan 21, 2010
25,510
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
25,510
That application note seems to suggest the use of a pair of complimentary mosfets. A quick read does suggest they were a specifically matched pair. As I said, "a quick read", so I may have missed it.

It certainly seems that a gate driver for the mosfet to allow more than 3mA of gate drive improves transient response.
 

swagguy8

Dec 10, 2014
73
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
73
What made you think you can use anything but a matched pair?
To any Hi-Fi audio (class AB complimantry) power amp the Output Stage matched pair is a fundamental MUST requirement !!!
That is critical for "ultra high-end " LM4702 type circuit performance .

Here is a TI app note(your circuit is taken from it) dealing mostly with the performance of matched pairs from different vendors.(there is a summary of performance comparison on page 27).
I think it will help you a lot.
AN-1645 : LM4702 Driving a MOSFET Output Stage
thanks for your link

why can't you just adjust the gain on Rgn1 and Rgn2? isn't it there for that reason?
 

dorke

Jun 20, 2015
2,342
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
2,342
thanks for your link

why can't you just adjust the gain on Rgn1 and Rgn2? isn't it there for that reason?

No,the gate resistors don't adjust gain.
Their purpose is totally different:
Maintain the Amp stability(prevent oscillations of the Amp.)
Look at section 7.1

I'm wondering, are you actually going to build the AMP?
To be able to build a ultra-HiFi High Power AMP needs a lot of Knowledge and experience...;)
And, to be able to test it's performance requires very expansive Hi-End test equipment,which I'm sure you don't have...:(
So what gives?
 

swagguy8

Dec 10, 2014
73
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
73
No,the gate resistors don't adjust gain.
Their purpose is totally different:
Maintain the Amp stability(prevent oscillations of the Amp.)
Look at section 7.1

I'm wondering, are you actually going to build the AMP?
To be able to build a ultra-HiFi High Power AMP needs a lot of Knowledge and experience...;)
And, to be able to test it's performance requires very expansive Hi-End test equipment,which I'm sure you don't have...:(
So what gives?
i am basing my design off of other peoples. i have decent knowledge, and quite some soldering and pcb experience. I don't have the budget to buy 1000 transistors just to pair it, i will probably buy paired transistors, so i don't need really high end test equipment. Even though people have suggested to not use usb scopes, i will be using a really hi-fi soundcard as a scope, as it's accuracy is pretty darn high. it won't be the the best solution, but it will work for now, i'm only working with frequencies from 20-20k.
 

dorke

Jun 20, 2015
2,342
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
2,342
i am basing my design off of other peoples. i have decent knowledge, and quite some soldering and pcb experience. I don't have the budget to buy 1000 transistors just to pair it, i will probably buy paired transistors, so i don't need really high end test equipment. Even though people have suggested to not use usb scopes, i will be using a really hi-fi soundcard as a scope, as it's accuracy is pretty darn high. it won't be the the best solution, but it will work for now, i'm only working with frequencies from 20-20k.

swagguy,
Your previous questions speak otherwise...;)
You don't have enough knowledge for this .
You may build it,but you don't understand how it works (not only in the finest details).

Buying 1000 Tr. and trying to match them?
That is a low level hobbyist attitude, miles away from the Pro one needed for such a high-end project.
What Trs are you going to use?
watch out for fakes!!!

"so i don't need really high end test equipment."
Another UN-knowledgeable statement.
You must ,otherwise you can't test it to spec.
sound card/usb scope are ...,
well almost total rubbish for testing an ULTRA HI-FI AMP.

You see,
the Key Factor here is ultra low distortion at relative high power...

I wish you success and enjoyable sound.
Do take care with does big caps you need for the PS.
 

BobK

Jan 5, 2010
7,682
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Messages
7,682
On the other hand, 1% is easy to achieve and, in listening tests, almost no one can hear 1% distortion. Amps that achieve distortion levels like 0.01% are a scam.

Bob
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Jan 21, 2010
25,510
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
25,510
And I would personally look at the active driver solution using the transistors to drive the gates. Even with unmatched transistors, setting the bias current will go a great way to achieving a good result.
 

dorke

Jun 20, 2015
2,342
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
2,342
steve,
Please define "a god result" in numbers.
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Jan 21, 2010
25,510
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
25,510
Numbers are not appropriate. However I have expressed my answer in the form of dance.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to convert that to posting :-(
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Jan 21, 2010
25,510
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
25,510
Numbers are not appropriate. However I have expressed my answer in the form of dance.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to convert that to posting :-(
 

dorke

Jun 20, 2015
2,342
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
2,342
Numbers are not appropriate. However I have expressed my answer in the form of dance.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to convert that to posting :-(

I can Salsa,can you...:p

Waiting for Santa are we?
Here I'll convert it for you ...;)


Miracle.jpg
 
Last edited:
Top