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transformer observation

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
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But wait! There's more!

Googling "Iron wire transformer" yields results from this learned journal.

There is some rubbish about permeability reducing skin effect. This mumbo jumbo is claimed to make iron wire a poor choice at high frequencies. Like 60Hz, for example.

Googling reveals so little that I am beginning to thing that there is a conspiracy to hide this great truth from us all. I blame the Stone Cutters Guild.
 

davelectronic

Dec 13, 2010
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Transformers

Hi BC 109. I dont see myself as an expert in electronics, or physics, but the iron theory or idea is a dead end, ie leading no where, the greater magnetic induction will not be more productive in terms of power out put, in no load current and heat maybe, loaded you might be able to cook on it ( heat ) your current observation is greater resistance, poorer electrical flow, WHY if iron is a more capable material is it not used the world over, bearing in mind copper is more epensive and rarer. Dave.
 

Resqueline

Jul 31, 2009
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apologise for my lazy input on details
i use a ferrite core
Yes, very sketchy & lazy.. At last/least we got one clue to your results.

So, what kind of generator are you driving this with, at what frequencies, and what kind of load?
Also, what kind of ferrite cores are you using, and exactly how are the windings arranged on it?

No-one will be surprised that the short-circuit current (which I guess you're talking about) of a transformer will improve with the permeability of the core.
The presence of (any) iron will naturally improve the coupling factor over the ferrite. There's a reason mains transformers don't use ferrite for example.
 

bc109

Aug 28, 2011
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ok all points taken i have been lazy and sketchy and getting a bit arsey which will not help, sorry about that.

it is the iron wire that creates a stronger magnetic field, so your transformer can be as simple as a long ferrite rod with two primarys, copper and iron, with a suitable sized secondary, that being not to small so readings are low or not to big which is unnecessary work. all you have to do is build a basic driver circuit but remember iron wire does not like hi currents(best stay below .5A at 16v). there is nothing special about the circuitry, a simple coil driver consisting of a darlington transistor with a diode across the coil type setup. i normally test at around 10khz with a square wave. with my setup a short circuit through a ammeter was used. basically the transformer does not need any special kind of wireing. i do not think the core is important for testing, it is the magnetic field of iron wire compared to copper that is being looked at here.

I have put it back on the workbench and will take some pics and note a few readings.
i have downloaded a circuit diagram drawing program to show you the circuit i am useing when i have figured out the software.

for £1.53 you can buy 40m of iron wire, grab a cup of coffee and disappear into your workshop for a couple of hours to avoid the wife and knock together a simple transformer, all it will take is 1 person to have a go.

untill someone gives it a go the arguments will go round in circles forever.
when 1 person says yes the iron wound primary induces more current than the same sized copper it is a end to speculation. we can look into this further.
the question does not have to start with "if it does what you say"..

i am not going to rush my posts from now on, i will put more thought into them

@daveelectronic

there is a little more to this, i know i keep banging on about it but for £1.53+pp for iron wire, its not a lot. what i want is people to ask the question "why is`nt iron wire used more in electronics" before moveing on otherwise i just know we will get bogged down in a confuseing argument.

@davenn

that is understood, but you must build the transformer,to see what i am saying or i go to your house and show you. i think its just badly worded on my part.
 
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davelectronic

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So its a toroidal transformer, with iron wire and a pair of transistors, to what ! amplify the out put, still not making sense, oh well life goes on, better things to do than talk in tongues, or what ever. Dave. :rolleyes:
 

(*steve*)

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Perhaps we need some photos and some measurements taken to show the effect.

Is the iron wire simply making a very inefficient transformer a little more efficient?

What effect does it have on an efficient transformer?
 

bc109

Aug 28, 2011
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pics, scope shots, ammeter readings comeing up tomorrow

steve are people not reading this?

you use transistors to drive current through the primary, you compare a iron wound primary to a copper wound primary. to do this you measure the output of the secondary.

is the problem that a step by step build needs to be drawn up?

the iron gives of a stronger magnetic field steve, pics will show that.
 

(*steve*)

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As long as what you show us is what you claim. i.e. if you claim that iron wire produces a stronger magnetic field, you will need to measure the magnetic field. If, for instance, the effect can also be explained by the magnetic field being different (shape, density, etc) then you will have to show that is also not the case.
 

Merlin3189

Aug 4, 2011
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You cant get current flow in an open circuit :rolleyes:
Dave
Perhaps I chose the wrong smiley for my comment?:p

What I was saying is, that he did not mention a load for the current to flow through.
We now know that the load is, " a short circuit through a ammeter ", ie. a very low DC resistance (probably non-linear) with an indeterminate reactance. (Was it a moving iron meter, a thermocouple meter, something containing diodes or more sophisticated electronics?)
So we have a shortcircuited secondary with some, but very low, output voltage (I'm loosing track of the practical value of this now), which current is trying to cancel the field the primary is trying to create, is increasing the primary current until it is limited in some way by the driving circuitry. Perhaps what we're seeing is some property of his driving oscillator with changing load inductance?
Since we now know he's driving it with a square wave @10kHz, I can hardly begin to guess at the output waveform. Maybe he's getting some sort of resonance effect with his coils: extra iron around the coil is bound to alter that. It also raises the question as to what current he's measuring: my simple moving coil ammeter with diodes says that it is calibrated to give the RMS value for sinewaves from 45 - 200Hz. So what IT would tell me about the output from his system is anybody's guess. Maybe the freakish load means that what he thinks is a 10kHz sqare wave oscillator is operating in some entirely different mode?

If I understand his description (two coils on a long ferrite rod) there is also plenty of scope for variation in magnetic coupling between the primary and secondary.

While I have some sympathy for BC109's suggestion that we try it ourselves, he has not yet said enough to make me want to do it. Like someone inventing a perpetual motion machine, you know that what he says doesn't make any sense. I'm just a bit intrigued to know what it is that he's seeing and to understand how he's being misled.
If I want to do some experimentation, there are other topics on this site that look much more promising and worthwhile that I'd spend time on first.
 
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bc109

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put circuit back on bench, have not put together pics ect together yet

@merlin

maybe you can help merlin, the transformer has a changable primary, the iron primary gives about140mA out of the secondary, a identical copper gives around 60mA. the copper engages the current limit at about 1 amp. so it draws more current but gives less out. i cannot change the results they come up the same every time. i have scope shots of the primary waveform, they look the about same for copper and iron. the question to you is why does the copper wire not induce more the iron?
 
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Laplace

Apr 4, 2010
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How about if you do a bifilar primary winding with a copper/iron pair. Then measure with just the copper wire being used, leaving the iron wire unconnected. Then measure using the iron wire, leaving the copper unconnected. Then explain those results.
 

bc109

Aug 28, 2011
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hi laplace

nice idea, laplace, would need some machine work to double spool sizes, but could be usefull, any idea on the increased current with iron over copper? at the moment i can not fault my results looking for some input
 
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davelectronic

Dec 13, 2010
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Transformer

The primary of your built transformer might give greater mutual inductance in or as a magnetic circuit, but its current with iron is 140ma as apposed to coppers 60ma due to execesive resistance and poorer electrical flow in the iron windings, COPPER is a better conducter of electrically conductive/inductive circuits, like merlin said, no ones going to rush out and try it, as its not tempting enough to try this perpetual motion machine, no ones tempted to try it because it makes no sence. Dave.
 

davelectronic

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Transformers

I really am facanated by psu design and function, magnetic circuits are very interesting to me, most if not all i do is geared around psu's. Other than repair of the accational CB radio, or multi mode set. If your transformer made sence i would be at the front of the queue to embrace your idea, iam a hobbyist in electronics, not a physacist or scientist, but my simple modest knowledge understands there is no future in your iron experements. Your claims seem empty to me. Dave. PS dont give up the day job.
 

duke37

Jan 9, 2011
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I have followed this thread with interest, there has been much talk and little data.
As far as I can make out, the experiments were done at 10kHz input to primarys of unknown number of turns on an unspecified ferrite core.

The way to go would be
1. To measure the primary resistance and inductance.
2. Measure secondary resistance and inductance.
3. Measure leakage inductance between each primary and secondary.
4. Draw the effective circuit and calculate the current.
5. Check that it matches with the experiment.

My feeling is that the iron wire is also acting as a core, increasing the coupling so reducing the leakage inductance.

BC109. You specify cost in £ so perhaps you are in UK. How far are you from mid Derbyshire?
 

bc109

Aug 28, 2011
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duke37

maybe not to far to from you, about 45 miles from nottingham in leicester direction . I dont mind sorting out a viewing, It was a finding from another project, i replaced a iron winding with a copper expecting a increase in magnetic flux only to find a current drop from 174mA to 50mA with a significant volt drop. very unexpected result. your suggestions are sensible for some tests. it would be so much easier to demonstrate and explain directly in the mean time i shall continue to put some data together.
 
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davelectronic

Dec 13, 2010
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Transformer

I will follow the posts on this thread, but until proven and other members ebrace the iron idea, i wont coment. I dont have the test gear to measure mutual inductance charectoristics in transformers. If your idea goes further than a pipe dream, you might end up very rich man. Dont forget patented ideas for your findings, or you wont be a rich man. I will continue to follow, but limited input, until proven, whats the alloy ? no answer. pic's not yet ? following in the background. Dave.
 

bc109

Aug 28, 2011
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dave i do not want to fight, your posts can get a bit nasty very quickly. i do not claim over unity, never have. i have made a transformer observation... being a iron primary has induced a larger current than a copper of the same size. you have opposed what i have said based on your experience with copper wire and knowing that iron wire has a higher resistance. iron wire atoms have a magnetic field that forms a magnetic dipole, copper atoms have a neutral magnetic field, they have very different propertys. if you do not wish to experiment you do not have to but by posting not based on your own observations into these effects you will create a argument with your approach.
 
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