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transformer observation

Discussion in 'General Electronics Discussion' started by bc109, Aug 28, 2011.

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  1. bc109

    bc109

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    Aug 28, 2011
    hi all

    I have built a transformer from circular spools, with this design i can change the primary without unwinding any other coils. When a iron wire alloy primary was wound i noticed this induced over 2.5x more current in the secondary than the same size copper primary.

    With high currents iron wire generates a lot of heat, for lower currents (.5A or less at 16v to give a rough idea) and circuits that do not have a problem with higher wire resistance it looks very usefull.

    i have been looking into this and will give more information but for now here`s a link for insulated iron wire. it`s hard to find and even harder at a reasonable price.

    http://www.crazywireco.co.uk/acatalog/Iron_Wires.html

    its not the best but very cheap, if you want better ya looking at £75 for 5m
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2011
  2. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Why are you using iron wire?

    It has a much higher resistance than copper, and yes, this means it will get hotter and be less efficient.
     
  3. davelectronic

    davelectronic

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    Dec 13, 2010
    Transformers

    Hi there. Ive always found transformers facsinating, and induction circuits motors etc alike. Ive always understood the relationship between iron and copper in inductive components big and small, but an iron alloy wire, dont get that, copper offers the best performance and reliability, if its transformers motors induction coils etc etc, why an iron alloy. Dave.
     
  4. Merlin3189

    Merlin3189

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    Aug 4, 2011
    Can you explain what you mean by this? I don't see how the material of which the primary is made can affect the current in the secondary.
    How does the primary DC resistance of your iron coil compare with that of the copper coil?
    Does the secondary open circuit Voltage change? If not, do you get this extra current even with no load? :eek:
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2011
  5. daddles

    daddles

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    Jun 10, 2011
    Interesting; it's possible the iron wire is now part of the transformer's magnetic circuit. But other than an interesting experiment, I'd ask why bother? Iron has a resistivity nearly 6 times that of copper, meaning the dissipated power will be nearly 36 times higher.

    Iron is a lot cheaper than copper. The only reason you find it more expensive is that virtually no one uses it for electrical circuits. Plus, it rusts...
     
  6. rootboy

    rootboy

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    Aug 26, 2011
    All I can think of is that the extra iron offers more "meat" for the secondary (I'm guessing that he was driving his transformer into saturation with the copper wire).

    I guess that it's one way of doing it. And besides, it's nice to have a few mad scientists around. You never know when you will want them to try something that would be too crazy for yourself to try. :)

    Where I live we already have a bad reputation for "Hey Bubba, watch this!" (a rednecks famous last words).
     
  7. davenn

    davenn Moderator

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    You cant get current flow in an open circuit :rolleyes:


    Dave
     
  8. bc109

    bc109

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    Aug 28, 2011
    hi lads

    plenty of info comeing up but for now some basics.

    my test circuit is two identical primary coils, one iron and one copper. with a square wave current applied to the primary the iron wire primary induces 2.5x more current in the secondary than the copper.

    What this means is iron wire has a stronger magnetic field than copper, so no magic involved and the answer can be found in physics. more on that later.

    @steve

    yep iron wire makes a good space heater, keep current low.

    @dave electronic

    iron gives more magnetic field strenght. it will induce more current
    iron alloy is cheap, u want more pure? £75 for 5m. the less impuritys the stronger the magnetic field,.

    @merlin

    like i say stronger magnetic field, this is due to iron being ferromagnetic where as copper being non ferromagnetic, it has a weaker field . the physics can give u a bit of a headache so i will leave it for the moment.

    @daddles

    due to suitable insulated iron wire being hard to find and time further testing has not been done, but i see no reason why my geiger counter step up transformer haveing only 6 small primary turns would not work and give 2.5x more voltage out. the circuit can be altered to use less current. can this not be applied to more circuits?

    no magic here boys just some new tricks to learn
     
  9. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Please don't spare us the physics!
     
  10. davelectronic

    davelectronic

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    Dec 13, 2010
    Transformers

    Hi again BC 109.
    Why is the iron alloy not in total production of transformers, motors, induction equipment, etc, why is the industry standard not iron alloy ? oh whats the other component in this alloy, an alloy is a mixture of two or more metals ?.

    Copper is more expensive than iron alloy, rarer than iron alloy, no matter how pure the iron alloy will not out perform copper in the same circumstances, and copper is less resistive and electrically superior to iron alloy, oh i might try silver, or platinum or even gold, wow a gold transformer, thats got to let me produce better psu projects, i will start with silver, best conductor i believe. Dave. PS hope it pays for its self, silver wire, iam in electronic heaven. :p
     
  11. bc109

    bc109

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    Aug 28, 2011
    why? a good question, i know the answer

    lets start with does the iron wire induce more current.
    the wire is cheap enough, lets prove what i say, if what i say is rubbish i will be shot down in flames :(

    game on. :)
     
  12. jackorocko

    jackorocko

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    I don't think anyone here is doubting what you say. I think what really everyone is asking is where would you use such a transformer and why in this case is it superior?

    You are trying to pull people into an argument, just get on with your proof!
     
  13. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    First you tempt us with an offer of explaining it.

    Then you reneg. :(

    All we're asking for is the explanation you offered us.

    There's a couple of guys called Maxwell and Faraday that say the induced magnetic field will be exactly the same for a given current, but maybe (like Newton) their rules will be seen to be an approximation that will be refined later (e.g. by relativity). Perhaps I need to review Quantum Electrodynamics? (Where are you when I need you Richard Feynman?)

    I am not aware of such a refinement, but if you are, I have the mathematics and physics background to at least try to understand.

    I was wondering if the iron somehow acted as a core, but the coils (clearly) would be orthogonal to the direction they'd need to be.

    Please explain?
     
  14. bc109

    bc109

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    Aug 28, 2011
    thats cool steve

    get the wire, knock a quick circuit up to test and we are on the same page, its the best way otherwise we will be allways asking does this work, a simple test puts that to rest. good to here your well up on physics you should pick this up better than me.

    @jackorocko

    dont want to argue dude, the results speak volumes, talk is cheap

    lets get on the same page before moveing on.:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2011
  15. Laplace

    Laplace

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    What is the magnetic coupling between the spools? Is this an air-core transformer? If this is an iron-core transformer, then your stated results make no sense. For an air-core, the iron wire may be partially substituting for an iron core, whereas with copper wire it would remain as true air-core coupling.
     
  16. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    No, you're making the claims, and you told us that it was simply physics.

    Just explain it to us.
     
  17. bc109

    bc109

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    Aug 28, 2011
    not simple physics steve, you need to prove the basics first
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2011
  18. bc109

    bc109

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    Aug 28, 2011
    @laplace
    apologise for my lazy input on details

    i use a ferrite core

    bottom line if you increase the source of the magnetic field whatever core you have will increase as well.

    i am not trying to trip any body up. iron wire increases magnetic field. testing this theory will prove it a fact. so test this theory..

    @steve

    the physics i talk of was proven in1920`s, yea that throws up some confusion
    you should prove as fact that iron wire induces more current than copper to start with
    otherwise we will get ahead of ourselfs, prove the basics first it makes sense
     
  19. Laplace

    Laplace

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    Apr 4, 2010
    The source of the magnetic field is ampere-turns. Using iron wire certainly does not increase the number of turns. Also, there is no reason that using iron wire will increase the current flowing through the iron vs copper wire.

    So you really don't have a "theory" - what you have is an observed effect along with a paucity of experimental detail that might explain the source of the effect.
     
  20. davenn

    davenn Moderator

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    its YOUR claim, the onus is on YOU to prove it NOT us !!

    until then we will just take what you say with a grain of salt... ie. its not worth much

    basically Show Us The Maths :)

    Dave
     
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