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Toroidal Transformer

Discussion in 'General Electronics Discussion' started by Gatesheadkeith, Sep 7, 2016.

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  1. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    Hi.
    Does anyone know of, or can think of a workaround on this problem

    I have an electronic organ with a suspect transformer.

    It's an Italian make as follows. Some of it I can't translate but I think all the important stuff is here.

    It has 4 wires in, and 5 wires out.. Pictured.

    Elettromeccanica
    Model no. 660 NV
    Transformer 33.5VA 50 - 60Hz
    Sec O 11v Giallo 2A
    Sec 14.30 14.3
    Blurosso Blu 0.4A

    Can anyone tell me where I can get this repaired in the uk, or if there is one available that woukd replace it.

    Really in the dark on this, VERY grateful for any help.

    Thanks WP_20160902_006.jpg
     
  2. davenn

    davenn Moderator

    13,671
    1,892
    Sep 5, 2009
    so why do you suspect the transformer ?
     
  3. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    Hi Dave and thanks for your quick reply. I have been advised that although power is going into the transformer, the output is suspect and coming and going. I keep getting nil sound, and the transformer feeds the pre amp pcb.
    I know very little about this stuff, just trying to keep playing if I can and trying to fix it myself as there are virtualyy no repair shops left for organs in the uk now.

    Thanks. Keith
     
    (*steve*) likes this.
  4. davenn

    davenn Moderator

    13,671
    1,892
    Sep 5, 2009
    (hi Keith
    sorry, I didn't welcome you first time around ... welcome to EP :)

    Firstly disconnect the transformer secondaries from the board(s) they feed and check the voltages out of the secondaries
    you listed their voltages in post 1
    there's a single winding producing 11VAC and a centre tapped winding producing 14.3 - 0 - 14.3 VAC
    these should be correct to within about 1V

    It's possible there is a fault on the PSU board that is dragging the voltages down .... a blown rectifier or regulator etc

    show a sharp and well lit pic or 2 of the PSU board(s), so we can clearly identify the components


    Dave
     
  5. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    I am very grateful for this Dave. Thank you for your welcome. At the present time I dont want to touch anything, as I don't know how to check out these voltages, what to touch and not touch, and I am afraid of shorting out, or damaging any components. Here's a selection of pics that should give you some ideas.

    The preamp pcb is currently at an electronics workshop for testing. Just by chance, the lift broke down in our pensioners home on Monday, and I jokingly asked the repair guy if he could fix my organ. He pointed me to a company who manufacture and test out circuit boards here in Newcastle upon Tyne..... So I'm hoping for some good news.

    I am very grateful for your interest and help. I am an absolute electronics novice but would dearly love to get my organ fixed if I can. Not afraid to work carefully to find a solution, but I do need some expert help here. Thank you.

    Keith
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    I'm going off to bed now. It's late over here, so will catch up tomorrow. Thank you.
     
  7. davenn

    davenn Moderator

    13,671
    1,892
    Sep 5, 2009
    OK when u get up, I want a closer in clear pic of that white board in the lower right of pic 1 ... the one with the 3 fuses on it
     
  8. Minder

    Minder

    3,014
    640
    Apr 24, 2015
    Toroidal transformers are fairly rugged devices, and if there was a problem you most likely would have seen a heating problem with it.
    I suggest taking it in to any radio/tv/electronic repair shop, they should quickly be able to tell you if there is input and output of the transformer.
    They don't have to be experienced in organ repairs.
    M.
     
  9. 73's de Edd

    73's de Edd

    2,941
    1,246
    Aug 21, 2015
    Sir Keith. . . . . . .et al . . . . . .


    Working only with the seen photos,, looks like a very clean unit . . .posssibly NEVER any problems, pristine looking toroid unit, the triple fuse bank has never had it's clear silicone seal broken.
    I wouldn't be overlooking a MUCH used power switch.

    Linear supplies . . . . .in the YELLOW area

    Design wise, the power supply has the paired YELLOW single supply line of 11VAC @ 2A that probably is accounting for 1 or 2 of the fuses and then goes to some of the heat sinked dual schottky rectifiers.
    The minor BLUE-RED-BLUE supply line at 14-0-14 at only 400ma should end up at the cluster of 1N400X rectifiers at D9-10-11-13 and go on to the Blue electrolytic pair for dual polarity supplies for a portion of the board's power requirements.

    Switch mode . . . . .in the PINK area

    It probably being responsible for the power audio aspect of the unit.

    Seems like I can almost date some of the U12-13-14-15 tone generation-voicing-memory platform parts to the '99's.

    Not hearing yet, if this is fixed location use and not constantly moved around, power cord and plug then might come into consideration.

    Board markup:


    Italiano Organ Bored.jpg


    73's de Edd
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2016
  10. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    Good morning guys and thank you both.

    Attached 2 more pictures of the front and back of the pre-amp board. I
    These are 2 that I took prior to dismantling, and as said, the board is not being tested out at a pcb manufacturing firm so I cant get more at the moment

    The problem started about a month ago. This is an Orla GT8000 organ. It is a true organ and NOT the Orla 8000 Sport, which has a single keyboard.

    I started to get a lot of crackling through my headphones whilst playing. I examined the headphone sockets (2) and found them to be fine. Also tried 2 other sets of headphones that I know to be good. Removed the headphones altogether, and played through the main speakers. This worked fine, and I was able to play again with no issues. But soon I had the same issue with the sound coming and going and not responding to either the main volume switch on the organ, OR to the swell (volume) pedal on the lower section. The swell pedal socket has a switch, so that when removed, all volume is then switched to the main amp.

    Then, inevitably, turned on 10 days ago, and zero sound. All the lights are on, and pressing the master panel buttons does everything it should...rhythm lcds are moving etc. But no sound

    Spoke to a guy who did some work for Orla. I have replaced, on his advice, the 2 swell pedal pcb's, ribbon cable that connects them, and both leads and plugs to the preamp board with new parts. Also replaced the main volume switch and the stereo jack socket on the preamp board, but without success. It's definitely a sound issue.

    What SHOULD happen, is that the organ can be played either on headphones or by operating a switch on the rear of the instrumenf, I can switch to main amp which lets it be played at full volume. I very rarely use it without headphones, as the speakers are extremely powerful. What IS happening is that NO sound is being produced at all.

    On the preamp board. Power comes into the socket from the toroidal transformer via a 5 pin plug. It then should transfer to the organ but is not doing so. The fuses have been replaced with new ones. There are 2x500Ma fuses, and 1x3amp. There are 3 banks of sockets. 4 are midi connectors which I don't use. 4 are in and output sockets for extra external feeds which again I don't use. The two on the end are Pedal Sustain which is the outer one (unused) and the inner one is the Swell pedal volume socket, which has been replaced with a brand new one as we thought this was the issue.

    The main amp has been tested by running a direct connection via a cable through the input sockets from a radio, and there are certainly no sounds issues there..... It is VERY loud.

    That's all I can advise. I am desperate to find the reason for the complete lack of volume. Unfortunately the complete preamp PCB boards are no longer available so I can't just swap it out.

    Help!! Really stuffed. Thank you.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    You guys are awesome. SO grateful for your help.

    Apart from moving the organ in early 2016 during a property move, it sits in our lounge and is not moved. I moved it myself in our car so I know for sure that it wasn't knocked or ill treated in any way. All the power comes on fine. The organ splits into 2 parts. The Head and the foot, for transport. The ONLY connections between top and bottom are the Amp connector which is fine. The pedal volume connector plug which is now new. The pedal switch connector now new, as above and the pedal keyboard. The organ lights up like a Christmas tree and is a fabulous instrument to play, but not without sound of course! Heres a couple of pics of it when it was first switched on after our move in March. As far as I know, it was built in September 2005.by Guiseppe! It's never given any previous problems.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Bluejets

    Bluejets

    4,274
    908
    Oct 5, 2014
    It might just be something as simple as a dodgy headphone socket. Seen that before.
    Inside the socket there will be miniature contacts that direct the audio either to the headphones or the main amp.
    The crackling sound you referred to earlier sort of points that way.
     
  13. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    Re the headphone sockets. There are 2 side by side sockets on a shared connection so that a person playing can also share the experience with another person quietly or for tuition purposes. I did test the headphone socket unit out by removing the plug which comes from them on the LH end centre of the preamp board which disconnects them completely, but in retrospect I wonder should I have bridged them the pins somehow? Really wish I wasn't so ignorant on this stuff. I am seriously thinking of taking it up as a hobby, as I'm not a stupid person, and do have a very analytical approach to things like this. I find it fascinating. And I want my organ back! Seriously at almost 70 it's a big part of my life and I am having withdrawal symptoms!
     
  14. davenn

    davenn Moderator

    13,671
    1,892
    Sep 5, 2009
    that's a bit of a leap ;) ;)

    Keith,
    what is the IC on the aluminium heatsink in the lower centre edge of this board ? ......

    WP_20160.jpg
     
  15. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    Do you mean the one marked IC 1. Unfortunately, until I get the board back from the shop, I can't see anything more than from the photos we now all have.

    I am, of course, hoping that they DO find and rectify any issues, but I want to have work to continue with if they don't find anything.

    Thank you all.
     
  16. 73's de Edd

    73's de Edd

    2,941
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    Aug 21, 2015
    Wel l l l l l l . . . . . your further fill in on all of the details and seeing all of the activated displays have DEFINITELY set that toroid aspect aside.
    It now seems that you just might have an audio loss coming in from the RED arrow and the guestimated signal passage to the left, thru the YELLOW line path, to the branch off down to the power amp and the headphone outputs.
    You confirmed the main amp integrity already.
    Just for curiosity can we see if it is using simplification by use of potted power modules . . .via a photo of it ?

    MUSIC PATH : ?

    Orla Orgasm II.jpg



    73's de Edd
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2016
  17. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    Thank you for putting my mind at rest re the transformer. Here's some pics of the amp, and how it's connected. It's a bit difficult to picture, so hope you can make sense of it.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. 73's de Edd

    73's de Edd

    2,941
    1,246
    Aug 21, 2015
    Sir Gatesheadkeith . . . . . .

    (Spell check is certainly questioning your name ! )


    Saw all . . . . apprehended all . . . . and that is being a complete self contained unit with its own hefty power transformer.
    Its using power modules and a power output level that should suffice in all but a full concert hall venue.
    Therefore, that attribution of the use of that heftier than normal Switch Mode Supply will have to be relegated to a power supply of the organ proper, rather than an audio power amp aspect.

    I think that your . . . . . out of their normal learning curve experience . . . . . " Printed circuit board troubleshooters" will certainly be tasked in definitively troubleshooting the unit, and have to rely upon a laborious testing of each of the IC's that I pointed out and use of lab power supplies for the fill in of the missing power supply aspect . . .along with an audio signal generator to fill in for the test "music" source.
    On THEIR boards, they can rely upon board specific "test beds" or sub into complete systems.
    If you get presented back the " un-repaired / repairable " board.
    I think that a researching of those currently unknown IC's and then my Edd-u-cating you on the units signal path flow, that the problem spot could be defined by the mere use of a computers stand alone /wall wart powered amplified speaker unit and an interconnective shielded RCA patch cord, with a DC isolative ..1 ufd capacitor inline.
    Heck . . . .if the level is sufficient . . .even a crystal earphone suffices.
    If you are still electrically "squeamish", you just make a connection in power down condition and then power up to evaluate effect.
    No HIGH voltages are in that area and with that method . . .no metering probe tips to slip off and short out.
    You just need to have a soldering iron and acquire enough expertise/ experience be able to "solder tack " on a wires connection.

    Thassssit . . . . .until ?

    73's de Edd
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  19. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    Good morning Texas.!

    That's where this wonderful internet is so helpful. Suggestions from the USA, Australia and the Midwest. My user name shouldn't confuse the spellchecker... I'm called Keith (someone has to be) and I live in Gateshead. Gateshead is in the North East of the UK and on the south side of the river tyne. Newcastle-on-Tyne is on t'other side. Not sure where Sir came from though

    Anyway. Thank You for taking a look at this again. Yes, the amp is very powerful and on full belt has enough oomph to easily fill a good sized hall. It drives 7 soft cone speakers and kicks out 170 Watts. That's why I normally play it on headphones!

    Well, I am now just waiting to hear back from the guys at the electronics workshop. In fairness, I only dropped the pcb in to them on Monday, and the guy did say they were pretty well stacked up with work, so I'll be patient. I'll update when I am able. They certainly have some serious looking testing kit there, so I suspect it is there for a purpose. The owner didn't seem to be too phased by it, so fingers crossed. I don't want to start hassling them, because obviously it's not a 2 minute job. I spent yesterday checking through virtually every other connection that I could find. Also removing dead spiders and general dust from under the keyboards. So it's all clean and ready to refit the preamp board.

    Obviously I'm hoping that it can be repaired, but if not, I will be trying some of you guys suggestions, including your idea of some kind of The way I'm looking at it, if it's shot, then I'll just have to accept it and move on. I really hope that's not the case though as it gives me a lot of pleasure.

    As the man said. I'll be back.

    Thank you. All of you. You're a good bunch.

    Keith.... From Gateshead
     
  20. Gatesheadkeith

    Gatesheadkeith

    14
    1
    Sep 7, 2016
    You guys are GOOD.

    You are very good. I take my hat off to you all. :D:D:D

    I have had a call from the electronics workshop and they have identified the fault as being the amp chip IC5 on the pre amp board. Exactly where you thought it would be !

    Chip is numbered: PA 381
    106 -6D
    0422 E26

    Any extra information I can learn about this chip will be very welcome. If you have any information, will you please share it with me, as apparently it's not a common one.

    Unfortunately it's not a chip that they carry, so now I have to find one and then get it soldered into the board which I can do. So now researching the internet to locate one.

    But at least the problem has been identified, and so I have a bit of a smile this morning.

    Thank you.....All of you ! :):):)
     

    Attached Files:

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