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J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
This is strictly your own (ill-founded) theory - you simply don't know
what I do or don't do to help other people. Quite apart from the
biblical advice not to boast about one's own charitable acts, anything
I did claim here would probably be distorted by Jim Thompson or one of
the other resident psychopaths into something that they could report
to the CIS or some such other lunatic fringe organisation.


That's not why I not going to order your book from Amazon. I'm not a
Republican or a Christian. What is my interest in reading a book
clearly designed to flatter members of these two groups? Why should I
pay good money to buy such a book?

It was written by a statistician and is heavily referenced as regards
sources, including the ever-popular "peer reviewed" papers. It was
not, as the author says, intended to show the results he found, but he
(unlike you) is willing to face up to reality.

You criticized Republicans for reading only what appeals to their
prejudices. How is this situation any different?

What people do is a lot more telling than what they say.
You haven't told me anything about
it that suggests that it is going to tell me anything that will change
my view of the world ...


Obviously, nothing ever will.


John
 
Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]
Slowman is just jealous... when he was born and fell out of the
horse's ass, she kicked him in the head ;-)
Slowman hasn't been gainfully employed for more than a few months at a
time... employers quickly note his incompetence.
So he lives in high unemployment areas of the world where he won't
stand out and be noticed.
I wonder how much of his wife's money Bill gives to charity?

Slowman doesn't have a charitable bone in his body. All mouth and no
performance.

Jim's Alzheimer's seems to be progressing depressingly rapidly. In
fact he doesn't know anything about what I might give to charity,
which hasn't stopped him from inventing a story that seems to appeal
to him.Give him a couple more days and he will probably be reporting
me to CIS for funding some Muslim extremist organisation, if his
relatives don't get around to committing him to an institution for the
terminally gaga before he does some real damage.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
On Apr 5, 11:58 pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-
Web-Site.com> wrote:

I'm not a vociferous critic of the U.S. - which Jim would understand
if he wasn't such an ill-educated redneck - and his opinions on other
people's ignorance are totally vitiated by his own.
What cage do you live in, Slowman?
The one defined by world outside the cage in which Jim is confined by
his ignorance and prejudice. Jim is a citizen of a gated community in
Phoenix, Arizona - I'm a citizen of the world.
I don't live in a gated community. I live in an ordinary middle-class
neighborhood that includes Black and Pakistani and Indian (from New
Delhi) next-door neighbors.

Slowman is just jealous... when he was born and fell out of the
horse's ass, she kicked him in the head ;-)
Slowman hasn't been gainfully employed for more than a few months at a
time... employers quickly note his incompetence.
So he lives in high unemployment areas of the world where he won't
stand out and be noticed.

I wonder how much of his wife's money Bill gives to charity?

Some - if we agree that something deserves support, and work out how
much we want to give, I'll organise the electronic funds transfer out
of our joint account.

We also have personal bank accounts which we use to support stuff that
we individually believe in - for instance my wife likes the Dutch
Greenpeace organisation, while I detest it.

Well, good. If you read the book I mentioned, you'll find that it
flatters you, too.

John
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
[snip]

Slowman, You DO help people... in fact the world at large.

It's pretty clear that you have no off-spring ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
On 7 Apr 2007 17:33:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

[snip]

Slowman, You DO help people... in fact the world at large.

It's pretty clear that you have no off-spring ;-)

In the genetic sense, none, though I do have eight nieces and nephews,
so my genes will go on. I have influenced a bunch of junior engineers,
and the world is probably better for that (not that Jim would ever
accept this) and a couple of my scientific papers have been cited.

Of course, I've been influenced by Jim - I used a few of his
integrated circuits, when I was much younger, and there was nothing
better available. I was very happy when the 7046 appeared and I could
toss his MC4044's in the junk box, and even happier when Analog
Devices came out with Barry Gilbert's multiplier chips, and I could
toss his MC1495 and MC1496 for the rubbish that they were. His
political philosophy has the same superannuated feel.
 
It was written by a statistician and is heavily referenced as regards
sources, including the ever-popular "peer reviewed" papers.

So was "The Bell Curve", which didn't stop it from being total
rubbish. Stephen Jay Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man" is an interesting
excercise in documenting how good scientists deceive themselves - not
that I've any reason to believe that your book was written by a good
scientist.
It was
not, as the author says, intended to show the results he found, but he
(unlike you) is willing to face up to reality.

Particularly when the "reality" lets him flatter a rich audience.
You criticized Republicans for reading only what appeals to their
prejudices. How is this situation any different?

I don't see that this book is going to tell me anything interesting or
useful - you haven't made that case, and you don't seem to understand
how you'd go about making such a case. There are a very large number
of books out there waiting to be read, and one is obliged to be
selective.
What people do is a lot more telling than what they say.

You and Jim Thompson invent your "facts" and go on to argue from the
"evidence" you have imagined - this is pretty revealing.
Obviously, nothing ever will.

It may be obvious to you, but since you share Jim Thompson's
enthusiasm for inventing the "facts" on which you base your -
fallacious - arguments, your opinion entirely worthless.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Apr 7, 1:42 am, Joerg <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Apr 6, 7:11 pm, Joerg <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Apr 5, 11:58 pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-
Web-Site.com> wrote:
On 4 Apr 2007 16:03:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
On Apr 4, 8:15 pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-Web-
Site.com> wrote:

Eeyore and Slowman have no clue. Our private charities are far more
efficient that ANY government entity.
I wonder how Jim measures the efficiency of a private charity? Or for
that matter how he defines it?
Benefit/cost ratio.
Which would only work if you could value benefits and costs in the
same units - presumably dollars. The effectiveness of a charity
depends not only on the quantity of goods they transfer to the
recipients, but also on the timing of the transfers, and the
proportion of the appropriate recipients that they reach. Since the
costs and benefits can't be expressed in the same units, you can only
talk about effectiveness, not efficiency.
That's exactly where charity excels. They see a need very quickly and
react pretty much immediately.
In the immediate community. They tend to do worse when the need is on
the wrong side of tracks.
Well, let's see. Our folks were in Louisiana after the hurricane, then
in Russia, then in rural Mexico, then in Guatemala, then...
Not exactly the immediate community ;-)
And the point I was making was that you can't describe this in terms
of efficiency, but only in terms of effectiveness, which is much
harder to quantify.
I am sure it's quite effective when the team leaves and the locals
suddenly have several more houses.
Jim was claiming that private charity was more efficient than
government-based social security, and I was making the point that
efficiency isn't an appropriate concept for doing this kind of
comparison.
I could give you tons of examples from
here but that could be considered boasting. And on some occasions I
couldn't because it breaks confidentiality.
And examples don't tell us anything about the people who needed help,
but didn't get it because nobody knew that they needed help ....
Ok, I agree that that will always be the case. So, would government
agencies know better who needs the most help?
They have a duty to be comprehensive, which no private charity does.

When I see who falls through the cracks at times I have the occasional
doubt about that comprehensiveness.


Me too - human agencies are always fallible - but at least they are
designed and conceived to be fallible.

So are volunteer organizations. They can fail as well and they also can
be designed to provide recovery when that happens. The main difference
IME is that volunteer groups have a heart while agencies often don't.
But they do tend to care about not working one minute longer than their
required hours, get a nice fat pension, plus cradle-to-grave health
benefits courtesy of the taxpayer. A good volunteer expects nothing in
return.
But how do you get to know that they need help? If your communication
mostly works pastor to pastor, your targets are basically limited to
their congregations and their acquaintances. Even if you do help non-
church-goers - quite a few Christian charities are less generous - you
have to know that they need help i order to offer it.

Word spreads around rather quickly, especially among those that have
fallen through the cracks or whom agencies refuse to help. Go around our
village and ask low-income people whether they know the food closet.
You'd see that most of them do.
Human agencies are always fallible.

But I'd have at least expected them to check in with her. There wasn't
even as much as a call back. Not one.
Sure. But you do need some kind of social contact to know that they
need help. And you don't really know what Jesus did - the gospels
weren't constructed as precise historical records.

I believe what the bible says ;-)
 
R

Robert Latest

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 14:13:15 -0700,
in Msg. said:
I believe what the bible says ;-)

The bible is a collection of stories written by humans. "It wasn't
faxed from Heaven," as I've heard some theologist say. Also it is
a moving target, depending on edition and translation. It should
be read and enjoyed, bot not without a grain of salt.

robert
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 14:13:15 -0700,



The bible is a collection of stories written by humans. "It wasn't
faxed from Heaven," as I've heard some theologist say. Also it is
a moving target, depending on edition and translation. It should
be read and enjoyed, bot not without a grain of salt.

Translation is indeed a challenge. That is why our Lutheran pastors are
required to be able to go back to, for example, old Greek and figure out
the exact wording of a certain passage. Even our young vicar said that
there is hardly a sermon where he doesn't have to do that during many
hours of preparation. Designing an RF amp is a cake walk compared to that.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Translation is indeed a challenge. That is why our Lutheran pastors are
required to be able to go back to, for example, old Greek and figure out
the exact wording of a certain passage. Even our young vicar said that
there is hardly a sermon where he doesn't have to do that during many
hours of preparation. Designing an RF amp is a cake walk compared to that.

People who treat the Gospels as historical documents rather than revealed
texts - Spinoza was an early example - dig rather deeper.

Search on "proto-Luke".
 
F

Frank Miles

Jan 1, 1970
0
That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

I'd agree that individuals, or small groups, when the job is "small
enough", are definitely the best way to go. The problem is that
there are enough of us that it doesn't always work out.

Two counter-examples:

- A recent investigation of "humanitarian" organizations has found (once
again) that there are some that only manage to get less than 10% of
contributions to their intended beneficiaries (firefighter, police, ...).
These were comparatively small organizations that managed to keep their
upper management well paid.

- There are a number of large government organizations - Social Security
in the USA, and the Canadian medical system - that (as a percentage of
benefits) take far less than sizable private/commercial insurance firms.
It has been calculated that private health insurance firms skim so much
money that we could _give away_ health coverage to all those lacking such
coverage if we could make them as efficient as the government programs.
PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying that the government programs are perfect.
When they make a mistake, it can be a doozy. But on a strictly dollar
basis, they are demonstrably far more efficient than the commercial
approach.

-f
--
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Well, good. If you read the book I mentioned, you'll find that it
flatters you, too.

John


I'll bet that Bill has NEVER found himself in the position of giving
away his last $5 to someone who hasn't eaten in days, when he had no job
prospects and less than a day's food in the house, or crawled out of bed
in the middle of February to repair a neighbors house while so sick with
the flu that he couldn't see straight. I didn't have to discuss it with
anyone. I saw a need, and filled it, plain and simple. In fact, one
case of helping others cost me my home, but that hasn't stopped me from
helping others.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Jim said:
[snip]

Slowman is just jealous... when he was born and fell out of the
horse's ass, she kicked him in the head ;-)

Slowman hasn't been gainfully employed for more than a few months at a
time... employers quickly note his incompetence.

So he lives in high unemployment areas of the world where he won't
stand out and be noticed.


I wonder how much of his wife's money Bill gives to charity?

Slowman doesn't have a charitable bone in his body. All mouth and no
performance.


I didn't know that he had any bones. In fact, I thought that he was
raised at the infamous, "Gary Larson's Far Side Boneless Chicken Ranch".


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
I'll bet that Bill has NEVER found himself in the position of giving
away his last $5 to someone who hasn't eaten in days,

No - I've not lived in countries where people don't eat in days
(unless they've been drinking their calories, and it isn't a good idea
to gve alcoholics money).
when he had no job prospects and less than a day's food in the house,

For most of my career I had very little trouble finding work, which
meant that I could keep the pantry and the fridge adequately stocked.
At the moment I'm still getting Dutch unemployment benefit at 70% of
my last salarywhich makes it easier to put up with ageist Dutch
employment agencies.
or crawled out of bed in the middle of February to repair a neighbors house while so sick with
the flu that he couldn't see straight.

The last time I repaired a neighbours house I was perfectly healthy
when I started, but stuck an 25mm wide chisel into the base of my
thumb when I was about 75% through the job, and ended up being driven
to hospital to get that fixed. Some other neighbour finished the job.
I didn't have to discuss it with anyone. I saw a need, and filled it, plain and simple.

Most people seem to work that way.
In fact, one case of helping others cost me my home, but that hasn't stopped me from
helping others.

I've been luckier.
 
R

Robert Latest

Jan 1, 1970
0
That's not why I not going to order your book from Amazon. I'm not a
Republican or a Christian. What is my interest in reading a book
clearly designed to flatter members of these two groups? Why should I
pay good money to buy such a book? You haven't told me anything about
it that suggests that it is going to tell me anything that will change
my view of the world ...

Look, Bill, either read the damn book or shut up about it. Don't get me
wrong; I'm pretty much with you issue-wise, and the book reeks like a pile
of bollocks from a distance, but that's no way to win an argument. If John
says, "Here's an interesting book that taught me a lot of things, and you
should read it, too" - and you reply, "I'm not gonna read your book because
the back cover already told me that it was written to unilaterally pamper
your point of view which I don't agree with," you can only lose the
argument. The proper way to win it would be to read the book and then pick
it apart on this newsgroup, all of which would be extremely boring and
off-topic to boot. John sounds like a nice enough fellow; if you ever get to
S.F. I'm sure he'd be happy to discuss both politics and electronics with
you over a couple (or case) of beers.

So let it lie. You cited tons more books (among them some of S. J. Gould's,
which I like a lot but find hard to ingest) than any other "contestant" and
I'm sure nobody has read a single line of them. Resolving complicated issues
of any kind takes both time and dedication, and in an electronics forum you
can't expect people to devote either on politics.

Of course going to a politics newsgroup doesn't help either. I once looked
into one, but found myself confronted with a high-frequency barrage of
postings running to hundreds and thousands of lines, so I decided that I
could put up with a few lines of off-topic abuse and ill-quoted,
never-to-be-read books much better than with real politics.

robert
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Look, Bill, either read the damn book or shut up about it. Don't get me
wrong; I'm pretty much with you issue-wise, and the book reeks like a pile
of bollocks from a distance,

But it's not.

John
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Frank said:
I'd agree that individuals, or small groups, when the job is "small
enough", are definitely the best way to go. The problem is that
there are enough of us that it doesn't always work out.

Two counter-examples:

- A recent investigation of "humanitarian" organizations has found (once
again) that there are some that only manage to get less than 10% of
contributions to their intended beneficiaries (firefighter, police, ...).
These were comparatively small organizations that managed to keep their
upper management well paid.

- There are a number of large government organizations - Social Security
in the USA, and the Canadian medical system - that (as a percentage of
benefits) take far less than sizable private/commercial insurance firms.
It has been calculated that private health insurance firms skim so much
money that we could _give away_ health coverage to all those lacking such
coverage if we could make them as efficient as the government programs.
PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying that the government programs are perfect.
When they make a mistake, it can be a doozy. But on a strictly dollar
basis, they are demonstrably far more efficient than the commercial
approach.

Frank, could you enlighten us as to who has calculated and demonstrated?
Any links?
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill said:
People who treat the Gospels as historical documents rather than revealed
texts - Spinoza was an early example - dig rather deeper.

Search on "proto-Luke".

So do pastors but here I'll have to ask him or the vicar. I believe in
revealed text but I'll bring it up. They learn a whole lot more in
seminary than I ever thought. Years ago I thought that engineering is
about the toughest curriculum you could find at a university. Now I came
to realize that ain't quite so ;-)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Latest wrote:


[...]
Of course going to a politics newsgroup doesn't help either. I once looked
into one, but found myself confronted with a high-frequency barrage of
postings running to hundreds and thousands of lines, so I decided that I
could put up with a few lines of off-topic abuse and ill-quoted,
never-to-be-read books much better than with real politics.


This _is_ a politics newsgroup :)))
 

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