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The guy out in the desert

A

Anthony Matonak

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am trying to find the website of the guy out in the desert who is
totally self sufficient .

can anyone help ?

You'll have to be a little more specific. There are a heck of a lot
of guys (and gals) out in various deserts, mountains and wildernesses
that are self sufficient to one degree or another. Do you remember
anything else about this guy? Where? When? Any particular clever bit
he was known for?

Have you tried a web search?

http://www.solarhaven.org/SolarHavenMainPage.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/44JIK7002B3/104-3463209-1586327
http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/essa/
http://www.explorefaith.org/Homily03.09.03.html
http://www.fullerton.edu/titanmagazine/Fall2003/zzyzx/desert_rat.html

Personally, I think Google is severely off it's game.
Anyone know of a search engine that actually gives you good hits?

Anthony
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am trying to find the website of the guy out in the desert who is
totally self sufficient .

can anyone help ?

Forget it. He pulled his site after people pointed out that his numbers
did not add up. Pity too, as he has an interesting system. The sad thing
is that he seemed to have no idea what he had done or what he ran from
the system.

Having said this brace yourself for his tirade.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Forget it. He pulled his site after people pointed out that his numbers
did not add up. Pity too, as he has an interesting system.

Just can't let it go eh George? In your mind, my site is the only one
he could have been looking for I suppose.... BTW, whatever you are,
it's not "people".
The sad thing
is that he seemed to have no idea what he had done or what he ran from
the system.

Hottest day of the year here yesterday, 100F. Was able to run the AC
for about 8 hours (5.6 kWhrs) plus the usual stuff, and was still at
100%. If only I knew what I was doing!
Having said this brace yourself for his tirade.

This is a tirade? Oh well, less self-destructive than an obsession I
guess.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Wayne glad to see you are still alive and well. Gee! 100F, almost as
hot as it gets here. Why did you build a house that requires AC?

Oh that's right. it was designed with the same care and consideration as
your solar power system.

Well now the guy who wanted you knows where you are. Spin him a good
tale now and get in lots of the ooh aah factor.

Ya all have a nice day now. Ya hear.

Nice hearing from you again.

George
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Wayne glad to see you are still alive and well. Gee! 100F, almost as
hot as it gets here. Why did you build a house that requires AC?

Because we just didn't know that we could have used your famous
spreadsheet to do our planning. If we had, there's no doubt that the
house be cool in summer, warm in winter, and that champagne would flow
from the faucets, all on a kWhr a day. Plus I coulda' been a grumpy
old fart with nothing better to do than criticize others. Anyway, life
is full of wasted opportunities, then you rot. Good for you gettin' a
head start on that last part.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
Because we just didn't know that we could have used your famous
spreadsheet to do our planning.

My ss would not have helped with house design. Tough luck, eh.

Guess we will have to put it down to your slipshod approach to design in
general.
If we had, there's no doubt that the
house be cool in summer, warm in winter, and that champagne would flow
from the faucets, all on a kWhr a day.

As above
Plus I coulda' been a grumpy
old fart

You are. You're still complaining about how people are so hard on you.
with nothing better to do than criticize others. Anyway, life
is full of wasted opportunities,

Yep, you wasted the opportunity to have an informitive and correct web
site for one. That lead you to miss the opportunity to put me down with
facts.
then you rot.

Sorry you're feeling rotten
Good for you gettin' a
head start on that last part.

Oh dear, you are wrong again. I lead an interesting and varied life.
Between my work and my study I don't have time to be a grumpy old fart
rotting away in selfpity over lifes hard knocks. I suggest you get a
life.

George
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Between my work and my study I don't have time to be a grumpy old fart
rotting away in selfpity over lifes hard knocks.

How many posts have you written about that web site? 200? 300? I
suppose the time you spend on them is part of your "work and study"?
LOL My mistake calling you a grumpy old fart. Obsessed nitwit then.
Be sure to post the date of the five-year anniversary of my living in
your head rent-free. I'll hoist a beer and think of you.

Wayne
 
C

Chris Torek

Jan 1, 1970
0
Forget it. He pulled his site after people pointed out that his numbers
did not add up.

No, he "pulled his site" (as you put it) after he made a promise
to do so if anyone agreed with you. As a prank, someone else *did*
agree with you, and he honored his committment.

In any case, it would be awfully hard for "his numbers" to "add
up" when he HAD NO SUCH NUMBERS ON THE SITE. I cannot speak for
Wayne, but I believe the reason he did not give generation and
usage numbers is that he believed his usage would not match most
other peoples' usages in any practical way, so that any numbers he
gave would be useless. Also, his site is unique -- there are few
places anywhere else in the US, at least, that have his combination
of sun and wind patterns -- so his generation would be unlikely to
match other peoples', either. (Even being within a few miles of
his place would not do it -- he is on a ridge above a valley, near
but not at the top, with special wind and rain channeling
characteristics. This avoids the need for a deep well, too, reducing
power loads for water-pumping.)
Pity too, as he has an interesting system. The sad thing
is that he seemed to have no idea what he had done or what he ran from
the system.

I have *been* to his house. It works. He *does* monitor the state
of charge of the batteries, etc., and if the system is overproducing
power (which does happen -- it was going on when I was there, on
a bright sunny day with low wind) he will do laundry or run other
relatively energy-intensive applications "opportunistically". If
the system is a little low, he will put off such chores. Since
the weather in his area is pretty steady and predictable, he almost
never has to put off such chores more than a few days.

It is a very nice house, too, except that he believed the guys who
did the concrete for the floor base, and they were wrong about the
ground settling, so that the slab has cracks. (Not exactly
surprising, and most concrete slabs wind up with cracks eventually
anyway -- at least in areas with these kinds of soils -- but if he
had followed his instincts instead of believing the contractor, he
might have gone a few more years before the first split.)

(I also think he's a bit nuts for using an electric stove instead
of propane, but it does save on propane delivery. But cooking on
electric, ugh. It is not the extra power load that bothers me --
well, there is a reason the phrase is "now we're cooking with gas"
instead of "now we're cooking with electricity". :) Yes, after
a bit of practice one can sautee on electric, but gas is just *so*
much nicer.)
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
How many posts have you written about that web site? 200? 300?

Enough to show the truth about it.
I suppose the time you spend on them is part of your "work and study"?

Actually, in part you would be right. Some of your antics did appear in
an artical for a builders mag.

LOL My mistake calling you a grumpy old fart. Obsessed nitwit then.

That would be hysterical laughter. I suggest therapy and stay out of the
sun.
Be sure to post the date of the five-year anniversary of my living in
your head rent-free.

Well I don't think of you much at all. Except when you make a silly
statement or someone asks after you.

I'll hoist a beer and think of you.

Now that's obsessive.

George

P.S. Why did you design a house to need AC?
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chris Torek said:
No, he "pulled his site" (as you put it) after he made a promise
to do so if anyone agreed with you. As a prank, someone else *did*
agree with you, and he honored his committment.

Prank? Maybe. The promise - Shear stupidity
In any case, it would be awfully hard for "his numbers" to "add
up" when he HAD NO SUCH NUMBERS ON THE SITE.

Not true. The site did not have enough meaningful numbers
I cannot speak for
Wayne, but I believe the reason he did not give generation and
usage numbers is that he believed his usage would not match most
other peoples' usages in any practical way, so that any numbers he
gave would be useless.

That is an interesting way to put it. His usage would be considered
average for the state of Victoria and somewhat low for the US. How could
it not be comparable.
Also, his site is unique -- there are few
places anywhere else in the US, at least, that have his combination
of sun and wind patterns -- so his generation would be unlikely to
match other peoples', either.

Except for the third of the world that is desert. Including 2/3 of OZ.
(Even being within a few miles of
his place would not do it -- he is on a ridge above a valley, near
but not at the top, with special wind and rain channeling
characteristics. This avoids the need for a deep well, too, reducing
power loads for water-pumping.)

So! The figures are the reason for this NG. People are interested in
what is happening, not how much it weighs. The system works, that makes
it of interest.
I have *been* to his house. It works.

I never said it didn't. Only that he could not account for collection or
use.
He *does* monitor the state
of charge of the batteries, etc., and if the system is overproducing
power (which does happen -- it was going on when I was there, on
a bright sunny day with low wind) he will do laundry or run other
relatively energy-intensive applications "opportunistically". If
the system is a little low, he will put off such chores. Since
the weather in his area is pretty steady and predictable, he almost
never has to put off such chores more than a few days.

So you are saying that his system is used when the sun shines and not
when it doesn't. In other words not enough storage. A hand to mouth
approach to energy use.
It is a very nice house, too, except that he believed the guys who
did the concrete for the floor base, and they were wrong about the
ground settling, so that the slab has cracks. (Not exactly
surprising, and most concrete slabs wind up with cracks eventually
anyway -- at least in areas with these kinds of soils -- but if he
had followed his instincts instead of believing the contractor, he
might have gone a few more years before the first split.)

Ah yes the joys of concrete. But, why design a house that requires AC?

Design. This is the point. His design by guess ment that he had to
double the size of his solar array and trebel the wind collection to
make it work.

Another guess added AC.

Wayne would have people believe that I am a gibbering idiot. But the
house I designed does not require AC. 50 degrees C is not unheard of in
this part of the world and 45 C is common.
(I also think he's a bit nuts for using an electric stove instead
of propane, but it does save on propane delivery. But cooking on
electric, ugh. It is not the extra power load that bothers me --
well, there is a reason the phrase is "now we're cooking with gas"
instead of "now we're cooking with electricity". :) Yes, after
a bit of practice one can sautee on electric, but gas is just *so*
much nicer.)

Yes I too prefer to cook on gas. But the use of a micro wave makes
sense. But my point remains. An interesting system that could be
presented in such a way as to be an educational web site that anyone who
was interested in solar power should read.

But no. In a childish fit of pique he took his bat and ball and ran away.

I suspect that the reason for this is that he does not know what he has
done and no idea how to find out.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
The system works, that makes
it of interest.

That's what I used to think. But I found out that sharing the info
meant that an obsessed crackpot would believe he had a right to
dictate the site content.
But, why design a house that requires AC?
Wayne would have people believe that I am a gibbering idiot. But the
house I designed does not require AC. 50 degrees C is not unheard of in
this part of the world and 45 C is common.

I suppose you don't "require" AC in your car either? That's what many
people in this area claim, but they're gibbering idiots....

This time of year, our temps are often 100F for most of 14 hours, and
80F for most of the other 10. It's kinda' tough to keep it under 80
indoors without an external supplement, when the average is 90+. Yet
you've done it with a high temp of 122F! OK, let's see the numbers for
how you accomplished that. I'm guessing that either 1. you have a huge
difference in day and night temps (which means your climate is *not*
the same as ours, or 2. that you don't "require" AC in the same way
that you don't "require" water pressure, or electricity over a few
hundred Watts without starting a generator, or 3. that "numbers" will
suddenly become a whole lot less important to you, or 4. that you are
about to make the biggest mess of a heat loss computation in the
history of Usenet.
Design. This is the point. His design by guess ment that he had to
double the size of his solar array and trebel the wind collection to
make it work.

Our original plan was for 900-1200W of Air 303s, 1200W of PV, and
three ground source heat pumps. Our current setup is 1300W (nameplate,
we're at 4500' ASL) of wind, 2000W PV, and three ground source heat
pumps. Additional loads are DSL (25W 24-7), DVR (30W 24-7) 4DTV (30 W
24-7), much more computer time than we could have imagined, and a
second desktop computer (130W about 2 hours per day). Not to mention a
bunch of wall warts we thought we wouldn't be able to accommodate, but
have managed quite well anyway. So we've added about 3kWhrs (daily) of
load, and 5kWhrs of supply over what we planned for. Now don't let the
fact that some of the additional loads didn't even exist at the time
we first built the system, stop you from claiming that we should have
"designed" for them. And for sure don't forget to claim that we should
have known exactly what we were going to get out of the wind power.

BTW, you previously wrote that there wasn't anything wrong with the
design, only the web site. Which is... er, was it?

Wayne
 
A

Anthony Matonak

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio wrote:
.... said:
P.S. Why did you design a house to need AC?

Why not? AC isn't evil or wrong in itself. It's quite likely that
installing an AC and the equipment to power it was cheaper and better
than any of the alternatives. Why spend more to get something that
isn't as good?

Anthony
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Chris

Thanks for the post. Almost a waste of time though. Bring a
psychologist next time if you're thinking of curing George. I wonder
how long he'll keep it up? Won't be long that we'll have been "not
knowing what we're doing" for ten years. LOL Anyway, I bet you were
happy to hear that with George's help, you could build a home that
wouldn't require AC, even in Death Valley.

Interesting that you mentioned the concrete. I've been prepping the
trouble spots for tile in recent days. Amazing how the tile seems to
take up so much less space on the floor than in a stack in the hangar.

As for the propane.... resorting to that would have been cheating.
Plus, lets see you do the dollar bill trick with a gas range. :)

Wayne
 
A

Anthony Matonak

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio wrote:
....
Yes I too prefer to cook on gas. But the use of a micro wave makes
sense. But my point remains. An interesting system that could be
presented in such a way as to be an educational web site that anyone who
was interested in solar power should read.

Why not just publish your own website? You could write it in any
manner you prefer. You could make it as educational and well
documented as you like. If you were really nice to the fellow,
you could even get information from him and document his house
and systems on your website in a manner to your liking.
But no. In a childish fit of pique he took his bat and ball and ran away.

Why play a game you can't win?

Anthony
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Why not just publish your own website? You could write it in any
manner you prefer. You could make it as educational and well
documented as you like. If you were really nice to the fellow,
you could even get information from him and document his house
and systems on your website in a manner to your liking.

An excellent suggestion, and one I made to him a couple years back. I
even provided links to cheap domain registration and site hosting. But
there are a few problems.... George doesn't do "nice", he's been too
busy perfecting belligerence. Plus, he doesn't know how to build a web
site. The time he could have used to learn how has instead been wasted
criticizing other posters, and even his own customers. As a result,
nobody who *could* help him build a site would lift a finger, and no
one I can imagine (least of all me), would give him information to
twist as has been his habit.
Why play a game you can't win?

Exactly. Thanks for the post Anthony.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anthony Matonak said:
George Ghio wrote:
...

Why not just publish your own website? You could write it in any
manner you prefer. You could make it as educational and well
documented as you like. If you were really nice to the fellow,
you could even get information from him and document his house
and systems on your website in a manner to your liking.


Why play a game you can't win?

Anthony

Hi Anthony

You going to write it for me? You see me and html do not get along very
well. Oh well, such is life.

It is not about winning. If you put up a site saying look at what I did
then people looking at that site are intitled to ask what you are doing
i.e. the numbers that show what is being done.

George
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Plus, he doesn't know how to build a web site.


The only thing Wayne has said that is right. I don't get along with html
and wysiwyg programms don't do what I would want on a site in the mannor
of maths. But I am working on the problem. It may be that I can do it
one day.


George
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
That's what I used to think. But I found out that sharing the info
meant that an obsessed crackpot would believe he had a right to
dictate the site content.

What info?
I suppose you don't "require" AC in your car either? That's what many
people in this area claim, but they're gibbering idiots....

This time of year, our temps are often 100F for most of 14 hours, and
80F for most of the other 10. It's kinda' tough to keep it under 80
indoors without an external supplement, when the average is 90+. Yet
you've done it with a high temp of 122F! OK, let's see the numbers for
how you accomplished that. I'm guessing that either 1. you have a huge
difference in day and night temps (which means your climate is *not*
the same as ours, or 2. that you don't "require" AC in the same way
that you don't "require" water pressure, or electricity over a few
hundred Watts without starting a generator, or 3. that "numbers" will
suddenly become a whole lot less important to you, or 4. that you are
about to make the biggest mess of a heat loss computation in the
history of Usenet.

The numbers are 100tonnes of thermal mass. Two metre veranda over hangs
and three meter ceiling in the main part of the house.
Our original plan was for 900-1200W of Air 303s, 1200W of PV, and
three ground source heat pumps. Our current setup is 1300W (nameplate,
we're at 4500' ASL) of wind, 2000W PV, and three ground source heat
pumps. Additional loads are DSL (25W 24-7), DVR (30W 24-7) 4DTV (30 W
24-7), much more computer time than we could have imagined, and a
second desktop computer (130W about 2 hours per day). Not to mention a
bunch of wall warts we thought we wouldn't be able to accommodate, but
have managed quite well anyway. So we've added about 3kWhrs (daily) of
load, and 5kWhrs of supply over what we planned for. Now don't let the
fact that some of the additional loads didn't even exist at the time
we first built the system, stop you from claiming that we should have
"designed" for them. And for sure don't forget to claim that we should
have known exactly what we were going to get out of the wind power.

BTW, you previously wrote that there wasn't anything wrong with the
design, only the web site. Which is... er, was it?

Well, well, well, after a couple of years you have found some numbers.
Nice, now go away and find the rest.

I have saved these and when you supply the rest will document your
system for you and post it. I look forward to a happy ending for you.


George
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anthony Matonak said:
George Ghio wrote:


Why not? AC isn't evil or wrong in itself. It's quite likely that
installing an AC and the equipment to power it was cheaper and better
than any of the alternatives. Why spend more to get something that
isn't as good?

Anthony

Nothing wrong as such with AC. But the question still stands. Why? Wayne
has not said. Your answer is just speculation. When Wayne supplies the
figures I will document his system and post it. At Wayne's present rate
of imparting info it could be a long time so don't hold your breath.

George
 
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