The first half megawatt

[Peter Franks]

news:[email protected]... [..]
Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it still
be worth quite a lot in 15 years?

No.

Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
price?

Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price

So would and will everyone else, that is why renewables will explode given a
bit of a nudge IMHO.

and doing
so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
prices. The cost of panels isn't the only factor to be considered when
deciding to install them; like wind turbines, without generous Feed in
tariffs working alongside the Renewables Obligation they would never pay
their way. Currently these measures are adding around 15% to all fuel
bills
and that's expected to rise significantly as penetration levels increase.

If you personally choose to pay for your panels I don't see why everyone
else shouldn't be just grateful for your investment?

These are tough times for many people though. The government has said it
will review FITs with a view to delivering £40 million of savings (around
10%) in 2014/15. How they intend to do that is anyone's guess. Reducing
the
guaranteed price perhaps? The DECC says "The review will be completed by
the end of 2011, with tariffs remaining unchanged until April 2012" but
add
... "(unless the review reveals a need for greater urgency)."

Considering the fact that renewables subsidies are expected to amount to
around £5 billion in 2020

Good, could be more though!

(Government) Subsidies is a feel-good word for stealing. Taking $$ from
one group by force and giving to another.

There should be NO subsidies. Either it stands on its own, or it doesn't.

 

[Peter Franks]

If you think you could get Toms PV instalation for around $1000 in ten years
time why do you doubt renewables?

I don't, as I've said, for specific and appropriate locations. Personal
PV is a choice that I fully support (sans government subsidies).
However, it does have its limits, esp. during nighttime/overcast/low
solar incident times that require an alternative baseload power source.
Again, personal PV is a /supplemental/ power source.

This has nothing to do w/ my assertion that renewables will never
suffice as a general baseload power source.

 

[Peter Franks]

Alle angaben ohne MwSt

?!

All information without VAT

What's is hard about this? What was the gross cost?!

 

[Falcon]

news:[email protected]... [..]
Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it
still be worth quite a lot in 15 years?

No.

Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
price?

Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price

So would and will everyone else, that is why renewables will explode
given a bit of a nudge IMHO.

nd doing so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher
electricity prices. The cost of panels isn't the only factor to be
considered when deciding to install them; like wind turbines, without
generous Feed in tariffs working alongside the Renewables Obligation
they would never pay their way. Currently these measures are adding
around 15% to all fuel bills and that's expected to rise significantly
as penetration levels increase.

If you personally choose to pay for your panels I don't see why everyone
else shouldn't be just grateful for your investment?

You don't mean everyone should be 'grateful', you mean everyone should help
'pay for them'. Call me old-fashioned, but frankly that's not the way I
like to do business with pensioners or people on benefits.

 

[Vaughn]

I find the discussion about ROI, guarantees etc etc fascinating... I
wonder how many of the people poo-pooing PV panels here pay as much
attention to the TCO of their new cars costing 2-3 times as much as a roof
full of PV panels, not to mention whether the car will still be working in
25 years time and how much it will still be worth?

Apples and oranges. A car is something you purchase for a totally different
purpose, plus one need not cost " 2-3 times as much as a
roof full of PV panels". However I DO look at ROI when deciding to pay
extra for gas-saving (hybrid) technology in a new car, and would certainly
look at ROI if deciding to buy an EV commuter.

Further, cars are a fairly long-lived comodity. I would not consider buying
a car that would not (in my judgement) last me 10 years and then have anough
residual value for the second owner to get perhaps 5 more years use from it.
I believe some new cars still come with a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty.

Vaughn

 

[Vaughn]

Subsidies don't reduce price, they just shift costs from one person to
another through compulsion.

Actually a temporary subsidy for new technology can reduce costs by creating
demand, (IE: "creating a market"). The larger demand should lead to
manufacturing and distribution efficiencies and competation that can greatly
reduce unit costs.

Vaughn

 

[Peter Franks]

Actually a temporary subsidy for new technology can reduce costs by creating
demand, (IE: "creating a market"). The larger demand should lead to
manufacturing and distribution efficiencies and competation that can greatly
reduce unit costs.

1) The initial cost has not been reduced; it has merely been shifted
from one demographic to another.

2) Governments are not instituted to 'create markets' or to control
economies of scale.

 

[Tom P]

?!

All information without VAT

What's is hard about this? What was the gross cost?!

Just add 19%. But it's irrelevant. You're running a business,
everything's net. You claim back the VAT for the expenditure, and render
the VAT on the revenue.

 

[Tom P]

"Pretty much" yes, but it's the exceptions that kill you. Most inverters
incorporate both fans and electrolytic capacitors. Neither of those items
last forever, either will cause failure.


50 years is wildly optimistic. There are too many things that can happen to
any installation. Some of them have little or nothing to do with the
robustness of the design. Equipment can get zapped by line surges or
lightning, can get wet, stolen, attacked by bugs or rodents, displaced by
home repairs& renovations; the list goes on...

Vaughn

Then there's the question whether the roof it's mounted on will last
50 years. It's written off after 20 years anyway. How much do you worry
whether your new car will last 20 years or 50 years?

 

[Tom P]

[..]
Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it
still
be worth quite a lot in 15 years?

No.

Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
price?

Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price

So would and will everyone else, that is why renewables will explode
given a
bit of a nudge IMHO.

and doing
so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
prices. The cost of panels isn't the only factor to be considered when
deciding to install them; like wind turbines, without generous Feed in
tariffs working alongside the Renewables Obligation they would never pay
their way. Currently these measures are adding around 15% to all fuel
bills
and that's expected to rise significantly as penetration levels
increase.

If you personally choose to pay for your panels I don't see why everyone
else shouldn't be just grateful for your investment?

These are tough times for many people though. The government has said it
will review FITs with a view to delivering £40 million of savings
(around
10%) in 2014/15. How they intend to do that is anyone's guess. Reducing
the
guaranteed price perhaps? The DECC says "The review will be completed by
the end of 2011, with tariffs remaining unchanged until April 2012" but
add
... "(unless the review reveals a need for greater urgency)."

Considering the fact that renewables subsidies are expected to amount to
around £5 billion in 2020

Good, could be more though!

(Government) Subsidies is a feel-good word for stealing. Taking $$ from
one group by force and giving to another.

There should be NO subsidies. Either it stands on its own, or it doesn't.

Like nuclear power for example? Who pays for solving the problem of
permanent waste storage? And who indemnifies the cost of an accident?
A recent estimate of the cost of a major catastrophe like Fukushima,
were it to happen in western Europe was of the order of trillions of
dollars. The utilities are incapable of insuring this risk.

 

[Tom P]

1) The initial cost has not been reduced; it has merely been shifted
from one demographic to another.

2) Governments are not instituted to 'create markets' or to control
economies of scale.

sure - it really makes you wonder why big business donates so much money
to political parties, right?

 

[Vaughn]

..

1) The initial cost has not been reduced; it has merely been shifted from
one demographic to another.

Wrong. Please go back and read what I wrote above.

2) Governments are not instituted to 'create markets' or to control
economies of scale.

Thats your opinion. Actually governments have created markets and
controlled economies of scale forever. It doesn't always come out well (see
the housing bubble) but it's done, like it or not.

Vaughn

 

[Trawley Trash]

It will be interesting to watch your newly created distraction to
this. The world is watching.

The embroidery pattern theft will never catch up to me
unless I get the used sewing machine I bought at a garage
sale working. So I am safe for now.

 

[Peter Franks]

.

Wrong. Please go back and read what I wrote above.

Please go back and read what I wrote above.

Thats your opinion.

No, that is fact. I should have prefaced it with '/Just/
governments...' to make it clear that we aren't talking about
totalitarian regimes.

Actually governments have created markets and
controlled economies of scale forever. It doesn't always come out well (see
the housing bubble) but it's done, like it or not.

Oh, it's done. Doesn't make it right, though.

 

[Peter Franks]

[..]
Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it
still be worth quite a lot in 15 years?

No.

Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
price?

Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price

So would and will everyone else, that is why renewables will explode
given a bit of a nudge IMHO.

and doing
so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
prices. The cost of panels isn't the only factor to be considered when
deciding to install them; like wind turbines, without generous Feed in
tariffs working alongside the Renewables Obligation they would never
pay their way. Currently these measures are adding around 15% to all
fuel bills
and that's expected to rise significantly as penetration levels
increase.

If you personally choose to pay for your panels I don't see why
everyone else shouldn't be just grateful for your investment?


These are tough times for many people though. The government has said
it will review FITs with a view to delivering £40 million of savings
(around 10%) in 2014/15. How they intend to do that is anyone's guess.
Reducing the
guaranteed price perhaps? The DECC says "The review will be completed
by the end of 2011, with tariffs remaining unchanged until April 2012"
but add
... "(unless the review reveals a need for greater urgency)."

Considering the fact that renewables subsidies are expected to amount
to around £5 billion in 2020

Good, could be more though!

(Government) Subsidies is a feel-good word for stealing. Taking $$ from
one group by force and giving to another.

There should be NO subsidies. Either it stands on its own, or it
doesn't.

One of the unappreciated and perhaps unintended consequences of subsidies
is the destabilizing positive feedback it causes. Those who get
subsidies constitute a special interest group, who then reinvest some of
the subsidies in buying politicians who will increase the subsidies in
exchange for campaign donations. Look what's happened to corn ethanol.

If it needs subsidies, why do it? Private investors are savvy enough to
make a buck or two on new businesses, since when are bureaucrats better
investors than the private sector?

They aren't! Just look at the manifold historical examples!!!

 

[Peter Franks]

[..]
Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it
still
be worth quite a lot in 15 years?

No.

Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
price?

Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price

So would and will everyone else, that is why renewables will explode
given a
bit of a nudge IMHO.

and doing
so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
prices. The cost of panels isn't the only factor to be considered when
deciding to install them; like wind turbines, without generous Feed in
tariffs working alongside the Renewables Obligation they would never
pay
their way. Currently these measures are adding around 15% to all fuel
bills
and that's expected to rise significantly as penetration levels
increase.

If you personally choose to pay for your panels I don't see why everyone
else shouldn't be just grateful for your investment?


These are tough times for many people though. The government has
said it
will review FITs with a view to delivering £40 million of savings
(around
10%) in 2014/15. How they intend to do that is anyone's guess. Reducing
the
guaranteed price perhaps? The DECC says "The review will be
completed by
the end of 2011, with tariffs remaining unchanged until April 2012" but
add
... "(unless the review reveals a need for greater urgency)."

Considering the fact that renewables subsidies are expected to
amount to
around £5 billion in 2020

Good, could be more though!

(Government) Subsidies is a feel-good word for stealing. Taking $$ from
one group by force and giving to another.

There should be NO subsidies. Either it stands on its own, or it doesn't.

Like nuclear power for example?

Yes, like nuclear power.

Who pays for solving the problem of
permanent waste storage?

The utility. Presumably a consortium.

And who indemnifies the cost of an accident?

The insurer.

A recent estimate of the cost of a major catastrophe like Fukushima,
were it to happen in western Europe was of the order of trillions of
dollars. The utilities are incapable of insuring this risk.

Then we stick with coal.

I'm not a proponent of conventional nuclear as an end, but a means to an
end. There are FEW choices: conventional nuclear, coal, LNG. You
choose, Irwin M. Fletcher, but that's the menu.

Of those three, coal/LNG are the most cost effective, nuclear is the
most beneficial in terms of furthering Gen IV/LFTR technology which is
the PREFERRED longer-term nuclear power source, until fusion (or
equivalent) is achieved. Renewables don't factor into this at all as a
baseload power supply, they are merely /supplemental/ to one of the
other three.

So, what is your choice?

Conventional nukes, coal, or LNG?

 

[Peter Franks]

Just add 19%. But it's irrelevant. You're running a business,
everything's net. You claim back the VAT for the expenditure, and render
the VAT on the revenue.

No subsidies?

 

[Trawley Trash]

Might I suggest stopping by your local Goodwill/Salvation Army/etc.
stores? Microwave ovens are a frequent dropoff.

I have looked, and I expect I could find one eventually. The number
I am interested in is usually on the back by the electrical cord. I
have to pick up the unit and turn it around to know if it is what I
want.

Most micros seem to run at 12 amps or 1440 watts. That is over a
hundred amps on a twelve volt circuit. The wires are huge, and the inverter
has to be near the batteries. Back when I bought my first micro,
people were complaining about the longer cooking times. I never
found it to be a problem, but they introduced some industry standard
(or regulation?) that says a certain size micro has to have so many watts
of heating power. I don't think the power supplies are as efficient as they could be
either. Micros don't use much energy, but just in short bursts. There isn't a huge
energy saving here, but it is frustrating not to find what I want.

There are other alternatives like rewiring to 24 volts. There isn't
enough room for it though. The inverter and batteries are under
the kitchen sink, and I do not like that. Leaks happen.

I was shopping around for another trailer, but housing prices are so
depressed around here that a house near a hydro power station was
cheaper. It came with a new heat pump. I may move the trailer off
into the boonies for off-grid peace and quiet.

It is hard to find low power appliances generally. I found
a low-power toaster oven that is perfect, but the one-pint water
boiler died. I have not been able to find another.

 

[Vaughn]

Please go back and read what I wrote above.

OK I did, and its still wrong. Economics 101. Economies of scale are very
real, especially as they apply to emerging technology.. That's why we have
these cheap computers, that's why most of us can afford to own cars.

No, that is fact.

No, that's your opinion. It's a defensible opinion, but still just an
opinion. Many will disagree with you. (I've been to school on this stuff,
I know.)

I should have prefaced it with '/Just/ governments...' to make it clear
that we aren't talking about totalitarian regimes.


Oh, it's done. Doesn't make it right, though.

Again, your opinion. Many would disagree.

Vaughn

 

[Tom P]

On Apr 6, 8:59 am, "Giga2"<"Giga2"<just(removetheseandaddmatthe
end)[email protected]> wrote:

news:[email protected]...

I'm currently driving a 2001 Prius that I bought for about 1/3 of what
you have invested. It gets 50 mpg and should last me about 5 more
years.

While making a profit on your investment would be nice I didn't think
that was really the point was it? More like putting your money where
your mouth is. It's easy to stand on the sidelines and talk, but you
are doing it. More power to ya

That's true, and of course it's really something to talk about at
neighborhood parties, it certainly puts those Toyotas and Lexus in the
shade. And it's a real hit with the girls too - "why don't you come up
and see my panels some time, just kneel on the bed and lean out of the
bedroom window.."