Maker Pro
Maker Pro

The Cat Ate My Steam Tables

In sci.physics Bret Cahill said:
Why is cost relevant where you live but irrelevant in the TN River
area?

Well, my cost is the same as about 40 million other people at the
minimum.

The night time wholesale cost of electricity has little to do with
the retail cost to consumers.

The TN River area has a miniscule fraction of the total US population.

Most driving of any kind is not done at night.
You have a powerful congress critter?

Pelosi will support what's good for the entire country, not just Marin
County. After all, she must get the votes of other congresscritters.
Irrelevant.



Less than a $1.50 for the equivalent amount of electric power in most
places and about 70 cents in the Tennessee River area at night.

Irrelevant babble.
That's the advantage of road bed electrification over battery only.

That so called "advantage" means you divide 10.98 by .9 instead of .8.
The efficiency is nearly 100%.

Nonsense; real, big, electric motors get maybe 90% in round numbers.
Maybe where you live. You'll need to post your utility's web page if
you want any credibility on the matter.

The rates are not online for some reason.

In any case, even if the rate is half that, the equivelent electric
gallon goes down to $1.50, which is no big deal.

As I said, the big cost is in the infrastructure; the cost to run
electric vs gas is about a wash.
 
D

Dan Major

Jan 1, 1970
0
Last summer power from the grid was a fraction of the cost of liquid
fuel -- now it's about the same -- yet every time any shift from
petroleum to the grid was proposed the response was often something to
the effect that it was nearly impossible to build a power plant.

"I dunno, you _really_ think we can  build more power plants?"
Yes, why not, especially with url at bottom...
OK, time for a break.

We know two things for sure:

1.  the petroleum is running out and it will be impossible to keep the
price from increasing exponentially, and
No, you make this statement with no citation, and no basis in fact.
Oil is NOT running out. Natural gas (a main source of energy for
power plants) is NOT running out.
2.  we have built hundreds or thousands of non oil power plants in the
past.
Who is "we", and again, I think you're pulling numbers out of your
nether region.
There may be some discussion as to what kind of power plant you want
to build but don't try to claim that it is nearly impossible to build
more plants.

What's impossible is to find enough oil to keep the price of oil from
spiraling on world markets.
There are excellent alternatives. I'm working on research right now
on an alternative, switchgrass. Ask me in a year how it turned out.
We're in the preliminary phases of construction. It will take a year
at leasy to get the apparatus built and begin to get valid scientific
data.
One use right now of switchgrass:http://www.ia.nrcs.usda.gov/News/
newsreleases/2006/switchgrass.html
 
J

jmfbahciv

Jan 1, 1970
0
Around here the price is more like $.22/KWhr.

If you allow for the lower conversion efficiency of a gas engine,
and the electrical conversion effiencies, that would make my cost
about $3/gal equivilant to run an electric car, so the cost to run
an electric car is not a particular issue either way.

What is an issue is the ENORMOUS infrastructure cost to electrify
all the roads to make it work.

Around here just adding a car pool lane to an existing road costs
$2.5 million per mile.

So, if electrification cost a mere $3 million per mile per lane,
and you assume the Interstate Highway System's 50,000 miles has
an average of 5 lanes, the cost would be over $2 trillion.

And that does nothing for the majority of the roads, which are not
part of the Interstate Highway System.
Now think about all the salt that is dumped on those roads.

/BAH
 
B

Bret Cahill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Last summer power from the grid was a fraction of the cost of liquid
Yes, why not, especially with url at bottom...> OK, time for a break.



No, you make this statement with no citation, and no basis in fact.

Except for some fundies and looneytarianated folk -- even many AGW
deniers will admit Peak Oil as a fact -- it's general knowledge.
Oil is NOT running out. �Natural gas (a main source of energy for
power plants) is NOT running out.

The OP issue wasn't what would fire power plants -- solar would do
well as most traffic is during the day anyway -- but building more
power plants to power ground transportation.
Who is "we",

Humans in industrial countries.
and again, I think you're pulling numbers out of your
nether region.
There are excellent alternatives. �I'm working on research right now
on an alternative, switchgrass. �Ask me in a year how it turned out.
We're in the preliminary phases of construction. �It will take a year
at leasy to get the apparatus built and begin to get valid scientific
data.
One use right now of switchgrass:http://www.ia.nrcs.usda.gov/News/
newsreleases/2006/switchgrass.html

Bio fuel does not conflict with electrification. We need to fund
credible EtOH and bio diesel projects because some driving will always
be off the freeway and out of battery only range.

So we'll always need _some_ liquid bio fuel.

In the meantime do what is "design ready." Slot car the freeways.

Food distribution is critical to national security so funding can be
from DoD and DARPA . Start out with I-80 and 99 in the Central Valley
so that people in NY City will be guaranteed to get low cost lettuce
and carrots no mater what happens to the price of liquid fuel.

Heavily dedicated routes like I-80 can be independent of the rest of
the system and can continue to operate even if politicians don't want
to continue slot car the entire interstate highway system. Peterbilt
has a hybrid electric diesel tractor in full production.


Bret Cahill
 
D

Dan Major

Jan 1, 1970
0
Except for some fundies and looneytarianated folk -- even many AGW
deniers will admit Peak Oil as a fact -- it's general knowledge.
Oh, it's one of those "Everybody knows" kind of facts...

Humans in industrial countries.
Well, I didn't think it was angry beavers...

Bio fuel does not conflict with electrification.  We need to fund
credible EtOH and bio diesel projects because some driving will always
be off the freeway and out of battery only range.
NO!! Absolutely NOT. Diverting corn to be used in making ethanol is
the absolutely WORST thing that can be done! I creates shortages of
food and raises the price of both food and energy. Not being one to
just "bash and dash", I ask you to consider the Fischer-Tropsch
process. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer_Tropsch South Africa
used this to produce all of its POL when its supply of crude oil was
cut off for political reasons. also see: http://www.syntroleum.com/main.aspx
So we'll always need _some_ liquid bio fuel.

In the meantime do what is "design ready."  Slot car the freeways.
And where would the electricity come from to power these "slots"?
Food distribution is critical to national security so funding can be
from DoD and DARPA .  Start out with I-80 and 99 in the Central Valley
so that people in NY City will be guaranteed to get low cost lettuce
and carrots no mater what happens to the price of liquid fuel.

Heavily dedicated routes like I-80 can be independent of the rest of
the system and can continue to operate even if politicians don't want
to continue slot car the entire interstate highway system.   Peterbilt
has a hybrid electric diesel tractor in full production.
I had a professor many years ago that did calculations and determined
that by the year 2000 the population of the nation would exceed the
ability of the farmers to supply food. He recomended planting all the
medians and right-of-ways with crops. What problem do you see in
growing food within ten feet of smog-belching vehicles? Even if you
could throw a switch and every vehicle on the road became a "clean
electric" car, there is still polution.
 
E

Eric Gisin

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, Brat is batshit insane. OPEC is controlling crude prices, not markets.

Oil prices are no longer tied to the market laws of supply and
demand. �

You are bat crap crazy.


Bret Cahill
 
B

Bret Cahill

Jan 1, 1970
0
1. the petroleum is running out and it will be impossible to keep the
Oh, it's one of those "Everybody knows" kind of facts...

It's one of those "everyone with an IQ above single digits knows" kind
of facts.

.. . .
I had a professor many years ago that did calculations and determined
that by the year 2000 the population of the nation would exceed the
ability of the farmers to supply food. �

At least now we know why you are so poorly educated you belong with
the dunces on sci.electronics.basics.


Bret Cahill
 
Top