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The best CAD for simulation, design and PCB?

Discussion in 'CAD' started by Patard, Sep 3, 2004.

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  1. Patard

    Patard Guest

    Hello,

    I'm creating my entreprise, and I'm looking for a Electronics CAD.

    Between PROTEL, ORCAD, CADSTAR, which one could be the better
    regarding facilities, and compatibilties whith Cadence, Orcad, Protel
    and Cadstar?and also possibilities of functionnal extension?

    Could also you tell me approximate prices for each one, in a
    configuration including following fonctionnalities : A/D simulation,
    design, PCB concept, GERBER creation and manipulation?

    Thank you!
     
  2. Guest

    I can't tell you everything you asked, or need to know, but I will step in and
    say avoid Protel at all costs. Not a user friendly piece of software at all. I
    was given a copy by a customer, and even free isn't enough to make me want to
    waste my time using it.
     
  3. Roger Gt

    Roger Gt Guest

    :
    : >I'm creating my entreprise, and I'm looking for a Electronics
    CAD.
    :
    : >Between PROTEL, ORCAD, CADSTAR, which one could be the better
    : >regarding facilities, and compatibilties whith Cadence, Orcad,
    Protel and
    : >Cadstar?and also possibilities of functionnal extension?
    :
    : I can't tell you everything you asked, or need to know, but I
    will step in and
    : say avoid Protel at all costs. Not a user friendly piece of
    software at all. I
    : was given a copy by a customer, and even free isn't enough to
    make me want to
    : waste my time using it.


    I'm sure Bad advice is not what you wanted. All the packages you
    list require learning to use them in an effective manner. Over the
    years I've used many different Schematic capture and layout tools,
    currently I use Orcad and Protel and find both adequate, although
    the differences are sometimes annoying. If you want support, Buy
    the PROTEL 2004, they are really great in the support group and
    training is available. However I do not recommend any of them, as
    a start up you should use a professional design house until you
    know what your trying to accomplish!

    Roger Gt
     
  4. Guest

    Protel is not an easy package to use, and after a lot of experience in using
    it, I would not recommend it to anyone. Consider that maybe they have great
    support because the software is so badly implemented that it is the only way
    they can get anyone to use it. I have used the products you mentioned, in one
    version or another, and Protel falls way short in any about any comparison.
    Its best to remember that some people take their software packages very
    seriously and would probably let you say things about their wife and kids,
    that they would not allow you to say about the favorite CAD program. If you
    want to be productive, avoid Protel.

    I am pretty sure that no matter what I would recommend, or comment against,
    some will say anything to stir the pot and create a fuss, so take anything you
    read in a usenet group, including my words, with a big old grain of salt.
     
  5. Roger Gt

    Roger Gt Guest

    :
    : Protel is not an easy package to use, and after a lot of
    experience in using
    : it, I would not recommend it to anyone. Consider that maybe they
    have great
    : support because the software is so badly implemented that it is
    the only way
    : they can get anyone to use it. I have used the products you
    mentioned, in one
    : version or another, and Protel falls way short in any about any
    comparison.
    : Its best to remember that some people take their software
    packages very
    : seriously and would probably let you say things about their wife
    and kids,
    : that they would not allow you to say about the favorite CAD
    program. If you
    : want to be productive, avoid Protel.
    :
    : I am pretty sure that no matter what I would recommend, or
    comment against,
    : some will say anything to stir the pot and create a fuss, so
    take anything you
    : read in a usenet group, including my words, with a big old grain
    of salt.


    Grain of salt was being applied, and you seem to object to another
    view!
    AND a TOP poster, bad form!

    As a professional using Protel and Orcad I feel that such bad
    mouthing of a product needs to get identified as BAD advice. I
    find Protel no harder to use than any of the eleven such packages
    I have used, and far better than some. So get used to people
    disagreeing with you.

    The man wanted serious advice, not personal bias!

    BTW, after using ORCAD for about fifteen years it took less than a
    week to switch to Protel 99SE and a few days to up grade. I have
    Protel fro '98 on, and except for '98 they are all reasonably good
    packages. I strongly suggest you get the demo and try it before
    making a judgment for yourself.
     
  6. Clarence

    Clarence Guest

    :
    : >I'm creating my entreprise, and I'm looking for a Electronics
    CAD.
    :
    : >Between PROTEL, ORCAD, CADSTAR, which one could be the better
    : >regarding facilities, and compatibilties whith Cadence, Orcad,
    Protel and
    : >Cadstar?and also possibilities of functionnal extension?
    :

    I would recommend you get a demo of each, then after using them,
    decide what you like. Easier than relying on others opinions.
     
  7. R.Lewis

    R.Lewis Guest

    From the style of your question I would surmise that you do not have a great
    experience in using such CAD packages.
    In which case, especially as you are in a start-up, I would avoid *all*
    those you quote above, plus perhaps PADS as it comes to mind, since they all
    have a very steep learning curves and you need to get on with your business
    at this time and earn money rather than spend forever trying to work out how
    to do the simplest of tasks with such packages.
    Don't get me wrong, they are all competent CAD packages, (I bite my tongue a
    bit about Cadstar) but they are not for you at this time.

    Split up the circuit design and the pcb design - and get a free/cheap spice
    prog and a simple pcb layout prog.
    LTspice/Anasoft spice and something along the lines of EasyPC will do a
    tremendous amount for you quite cheaply.
    Later you can invest the time and money in more fanciful packages.

    Good luck.
     
  8. Don Prescott

    Don Prescott Guest

    I've used, or at least tried, all these packages. I would recommend
    you try my system - Pulsonix. This is the up and coming product for
    layout and simulation. It leaves these systems behind for ease of
    use... and the A/D simulator is first rate - better than P-SPICE in my
    opinion for a fraction of the price. The overall price is a lot less
    than PROTEL, ORCAD, CADSTAR

    You can get a demo on www.pulsonix.com

    Prescott
     
  9. Leon Heller

    Leon Heller Guest

    Same here. I've been using Pulsonix since it first came out. I've tried all
    the other packages but don't like any of them. Protel, for instance, has
    lots more features, but I doubt if many people actually use them, and it is
    consequently rather slow and cumbersome, as well as having lots of bugs.

    Leon
     
  10. Adrian Hey

    Adrian Hey Guest

    Just curious, but do you know how EasyPC and pulsonix compare? They seem
    to be from the same outfit AFAICT, but there's a huge price difference.

    What can you do with pulsonix that you can't do with EasyPC?

    Thanks
     
  11. Guest

    \

    Your time is up little guy. Folks are getting to realize that you are not a
    professional CAD designer, but are just a troll, posting simply to irritate
    folks. It worked for a while, but now you are in more trash bins than all the
    fast food cups in America. Step back, maybe find a new name to post your flame
    bait under, because no one gives you the time of day. When your address and
    phone number get posted, you might find that your time spent here will not
    have been worth the jollies you give yourself by trying so hard to inflame
    others.

    Anyone can see that all I did was offer an opinion, and you jumped up and
    down, screaming about bias and attitude. The top post is MY choice, and if you
    want to play net cop, well, you are the one who has no real life of his own,
    so rant on if you feel it will do any good. Little people like you only get
    by because you are well hidden behind your keyboard. In real life, you would
    be face down on the carpet, bleeding profusely. Enjoy being invisible for now,
    as it may not last.

    Protel is a very difficult package to use, compared to the other options
    mentioned. If you don't agree, I don't care. Maybe get back into your
    state-of-the-art AMC Pacer and drive on out of here..... Anyone who would
    waste their life doing what you do, ought to consider ending it.

    Filter is on, so whatever you say will not be read by anyone who cares.
     
  12. Leon Heller

    Leon Heller Guest

    They are out of the same stable, but aimed at different markets, and there
    are a lot of differences. Have a look at the web sites and compare the
    specifications, and try the two demos.

    Leon
     
  13. Clarence

    Clarence Guest

    What is this?
     
  14. Don Prescott

    Don Prescott Guest

    Yep, have to agreed the above. Protel used to be a cheap (but buggy)
    product. They had their heyday in the 90s when there was much else
    around at the price that was any good. There is now!

    I just took a look at the Altium stock price and got a shock that it
    had slumped to 34 cents. I then got an even bigger shock when I
    realised these are Australian cents, this price equals 23 US cents...!
    You have to wonder where this company is heading......

    Prescott
     
  15. Clarence

    Clarence Guest


    Last Quote is $0.63 USD

    Not much different than a month ago.

    I am also a user of their software, and Find it actable and not too hard to
    use.

    If some one is looking for a schematic package there are cheaper less powerful
    packages available, once you learn it Protel is a productive tool.
     
  16. Don Prescott

    Don Prescott Guest

    "> Last Quote is $0.63 USD
    What....! "Last Quote is $0.63 USD". Go log onto the Australian stock
    exchange site www.asx.com. In the "get a quote" box key in "alu" the
    symbol for Altium you'll see it's .34. This is Australian Dollars
    which equates to 0.234599 USD...!

    I dunno what it was a month ago, but I know what it was back in 2000.
    It was around 5 Australian Dollars which is $3.44998 USD. So the
    stock has slumped to 6.8% of its value of 4 years ago.....!!! I sure
    as hell would not be a happy bunny right now if I'd bought Altium
    (Protel) stock 4 years ago....

    I believe the Protel product is not user-friendly by today's standards
    and it is over-priced. There's better products around these days at
    fairer prices.

    Prescott
     
  17. Clarence

    Clarence Guest

    Your belief is limited to your experience. I have worked (contracted) with
    eight companies who exclusively use Protel. They do so because it is cost
    effective.

    I am sure that your belief is sufficient for your decisions, but I do wander
    why you would inflict your narrow view on people trying to make a choice with
    out their understanding the reasons fro you bias?

    I do respect your right to an opinion and to speak out in a clear and
    unambiguous manner that YOU (emphases a personal nonobjective position) Do not
    feel that PROTEL is a good program for beginners. I also think that a
    Beginner can find a less expensive and easier to use (fewer features) on the
    internet. But to flatly state that is not a useful system? No! "Rockwell
    International" "Raytheon" "DRS" "Boeing" and many others might disagree.
    Myself included.

    The stock information I obtained is from my broker. The dip is about the same
    as many other companies. I have made quite a bit from the variation in prices
    the last few years. Including some that dropped even more only to gradually
    return to somewhere near the year 2000 price.

    Some Software companies in the US went down and were purchased by someone. It
    happens, and usually because they have a good product.
     
  18. Guest

    It is a confusing concept for most English speaking people to grasp, but the
    incontrovertable fact is that when a person says "its not a useful system"
    they are stating an opinion, unless it is followed or prefaced by the phrase,
    according to ----fill in the source here----

    This is a necessary concept, else we must all begin our sentences with the phrase "in my opinion" Much like the worn out phrase "thank you" part of the sentence, in that case the "I" is implied, it is assumed by the intelligent reader, that yes, it is just an opinion.

    Several of us have expressed our opinions, which is what was originally solicted, yet for some reason, we are limited, while others claim that their view is a fact, simply because some companies use the product. That must make those who use a different product, what? Stupid? There are many aspects of a piece of software or hardware that make it desirable, so there are just as many opinions. Protel is a serious player in the PCB arena, so they must have something going for them, but among tens of thousands of users, one size does not fit all.

    I am willing to bet, based on years of personal experience, that you can find many designers in the companies you listed, who are not enamored with Protel, but who use it because that is the tool the company foisted upon them. Surely no one who has ever worked for a living believes that companies ALWAYS buy the best, most productive product. The motivation is often financing, brother-in-law deals, and a complete blow job by the sales division of whatever product is in question.

    Its okay not to agree with all other opinions, I really just wanted to make this point, not go to war, but if the best product is always the one chosen, explain Microsoft Windows on every enterprise desktop.
     
  19. Clarence

    Clarence Guest

    phrase "in my opinion" Much like the worn out phrase "thank you" part of the
    sentence, in that case the "I" is implied, it is assumed by the intelligent
    reader, that yes, it is just an opinion.
    solicted, yet for some reason, we are limited, while others claim that their
    view is a fact, simply because some companies use the product. That must make
    those who use a different product, what? Stupid? There are many aspects of a
    piece of software or hardware that make it desirable, so there are just as many
    opinions. Protel is a serious player in the PCB arena, so they must have
    something going for them, but among tens of thousands of users, one size does
    not fit all.
    many designers in the companies you listed, who are not enamored with Protel,
    but who use it because that is the tool the company foisted upon them. Surely
    no one who has ever worked for a living believes that companies ALWAYS buy the
    best, most productive product. The motivation is often financing,
    brother-in-law deals, and a complete blow job by the sales division of whatever
    product is in question.
    this point, not go to war, but if the best product is always the one chosen,
    explain Microsoft Windows on every enterprise desktop.


    Not a war.

    Your statements were too adamant to be interpreted as anything but
    condemnation. With a finality that would brook no disagreement.
    I objected to that.
    Also, your implication that English speakers have some problem is really
    interesting. Would you suggest what language is totally unambiguous? I should
    like to learn it!

    I know that the translation from one language to another can produce some
    strange results, and have seen many examples. However we were already
    conversing in English and I thought the meaning was quite clear. Unstated
    nuances do not translate will to the internet.
     
  20. Guest

    In <06q%c.12764$>, on 09/07/04 at 09:54
    PM,
    Well, they were not my words, :) but that's okay. I know what you meant.
    Surely the written language of the internet is the easiest to interpret, free
    of ambiguity and mis-representations :)

    The point I wanted to make is that if someone says "its hot outside" that is
    not a statement of a fact, its an opinion. They are not required by the
    "rules" of the English language, to preface it by saying "In my opinion," or
    "I think" If someone asks what I think of Protel, and I say "its hard to use"
    it is not necessary for me to reply "In my opinion, its hard to use" but the
    reader IS required to understand that the "in my opinion" is implied, in order
    to avoid just what you read into the statement. That is what I meant. No
    attempt to defame or insult those who use the language.

    When someone says Protel is hard to use, it ought not be construed to mean
    that they are the all knowing, fact bearing God of Protel. Its just their
    opinion, even tho they do not say "in my opinion"

    The original poster asked about what Cad package he might use, and IIRC, I got
    involved by saying that he/she ought to avoid Protel, and then I made it a
    point to state that some will disagree, so I guess I at least got that right
    <g>

    Those who do not stop and consider the "unwritten rules" will sometimes be
    confused by someone making a statement, since it can appear to be some kind of
    all-knowing commentary, when in fact, it was just an opinion.

    If someone replies to the inquiry and says "Protel is not a good platform"
    those words are simply an opinion. Not a closed, condemnation. I think the
    best response to someone whose opinioin differs would be "why do you say
    that?" as opposed to the assumption that the person claims godhood and is all
    knowing. If someone has used Protel, and says they don't like it, I think that
    opinion ought to be accepted as it was given, not hurled back in their face
    with an attitude of "you are wrong," since one cannot be wrong when stating an
    opinion.

    Anyway, I think Protel is cryptic, the libraries are hard to work with, its
    difficult to route, and not very forgiving when it comes to making changes to
    existing routes and nets. There are some good points, as with most CAD
    software, but overall, I give it a D- based on what I expect to get from a PCB
    package. IMO, of course.
     
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