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Tesla's Electric Car #2

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by rev dan izzo, Sep 27, 2003.

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  1. rev dan izzo

    rev dan izzo Guest

    Tesla's Electric Car #2 - 01/09/98
    This file was originally posted on the KeelyNet BBS on January 31,
    1993 as TESLAFE2.ASC.

    This file is a Sysop commentary on the Tesla Power Box as described in
    the original file TESLAFE1.ASC on KeelyNet.

    These are my own thoughts on the Tesla Power Box, I welcome your
    constructive comments regarding this device......Jerry W.
    Decker/KeelyNet
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The following are the details as removed from the file TESLAFE1 :

    "The standard internal combustion engine was removed and an 80-H.P.
    1800 r.p.m electric motor installed to the clutch and transmission.

    The A.C. motor measured 40 inches long and 30 inches in diameter and
    the power leads were left standing in the air - no external power
    source!

    He then went to a local radio store and purchased a handful of tubes
    (12), wires and assorted resistors. A box measuring 24 inches long, 12
    inches wide and 6 inches high was assembled housing the circuit.

    The box was placed on the front seat and had its wires connected to
    the air-cooled, brushless motor. Two rods 1/4" in diameter stuck out
    of the box about 3" in length."

    The mention of this experiment in a local paper kind of blew me away
    but it did give "some" detail of what was in this mysterious power
    box.

    We know that T.H. Moray had probably the best known version of such a
    device. In his case he used a special "valve" which appeared to be
    basically a diode. Except this diode worked more like a Triac. That
    is, any electrical wave, both positive AND negative going currents,
    was picked up by an antenna and passed through this diode with minimal
    loss of energy. As far as we know, this valve was based on a composite
    substance with GERMANIUM as the host material.

    From there it went through a tuned circuit based on vacuum tubes and
    capacitors to build and discharge the energy as demanded by the load.

    The tuned circuits were resonant with one or more earth or cosmic
    frequencies and the vacuum tubes acted as harmonic constructive
    interference amplifiers of the input signals.

    We will note that Moray's resonant circuits used CAPACITORS, COILS and
    RESISTORS. Experiments done during Moray's heyday showed an output up
    to 50,000 Watts of high frequency energy. It is believed that the
    energy was high frequency because 100 watt light bulbs burned cool to
    the touch.

    One other CRITICAL POINT about Moray's converter was that it would
    ONLY energize RESISTIVE loads and NOT INDUCTIVE loads. This is because
    inductive loads imply coils of wire which are heated more so by
    HYSTERESIS (interferring electro-magnetic fields) rather than simple
    resistance from the flow of current through molecular/atomic patterns.

    This type of interferring field caused an energy backup and subsequent
    de-tuning of Moray's generator. Since it was essentially a TUNED
    device, it could not compensate for any frequency changes or
    distortions ONCE TUNED. As a result, any attempt to hook up an
    inductive load would cause the device to stop generating electrical
    energy. To restart it, all inductive loading must be removed, the
    device re-tuned and restarted.

    Moray also used an unusual mode of operation for a vacuum tube in that
    he operated with a "cold cathode." This did not require a heated plate
    for the "thermionic emissions" deemed necessary to successful vacuum
    tube operation.

    There is also mention of radioactive elements in the antenna circuit
    which leads one to think he might have been tuning into the continual
    radioactive decay processes of nature, rather than cosmic or earth
    energies.

    Now to the Tesla Power Box

    We will first of all note the use of an AC coil motor. This alone
    tells us that the Tesla device was superior and not so dependent on
    tuning as was Moray's machine which could only power RESISTIVE loads.
    All universal energy moves in WAVES and so is essentially for
    alternating current (AC). That is why Moray called his book "THE SEA
    OF ENERGY IN WHICH THE EARTH FLOATS". The entire universe is
    continually bathed in these AC energies and they cover the entire
    frequency spectrum.

    What intrigues the hell out of me was how Tesla could use "off-the-
    shelf" vacuum tubes and other components, put them together in the
    correct configuration and make it work.

    Another point we should note is the list of components :

    1) 12 Vacuum Tubes (70L7-GT rectifier beam power tubes)
    2) Wires
    3) Assorted Resistors
    4) 1/4" diameter rods 3" in length

    NOTE, NO CAPACITORS! The wires could have been simply for connection
    or wound as coils. The 1/4" rods were either BUS BARS for power output
    taps OR more likely ANTENNAS! Resonant circuits can be constructed
    using several techniques. You can achieve the same effect from :

    1) Resistors AND capacitors
    2) Capacitors AND coils
    3) Coils AND resistors

    So, in the case of the Tesla Power Box, he either wound his own coils
    or simply used the wire to connect the resistors with the vacuum
    tubes. I am of the opinion that he used the wire ONLY for connection
    and DID NOT USE COILS! I also think he used a DIODE somewhere in the
    circuit in order to tap ONLY one polarity.

    We have no specifications for the AC motor that Tesla used in the
    auto, so we have no idea if it was single or polyphase. In the case of
    a single phase motor, it only requires a single winding which projects
    a magnetic field that rotates according to the increase or decrease of
    the alternating current.

    A polyphase (poly = two or more) motor uses multiple windings which
    are fed by phased input currents that alternate in such a manner as to
    reinforce each other. In the case of a 3 phase motor, the currents are
    phased 120 degrees apart. This gives much greater torque to the motor
    but requires 3 times the current because it uses 3 times the input
    energy.

    Since the box powered an AC (coil) motor, it is probable it was TUNED
    to one or more frequencies, most likely polyphased frequencies.

    So, if the 3" long rods were in fact ANTENNAS, we can calculate their
    frequency by using the following :

    (I cannot express Lambda here so we will use w for wavelength)

    w = wavelength
    v = velocity of propagation
    f = signal frequency

    a short example : w = v / f = wavelength in feet
    w = 984,000,000/1,500,000 = 656 feet
    f = 984,000,000/656 = 1,500,000 or 1.5 MHZ

    3 inches * 4 = 1 foot
    984,000,000/1 = 984,000,000
    984,000,000/4 = 246,000,000 or 246 MHZ


    This would indicate the 3" rods (if they were truly 3" in length and
    functioning as antennas) would resonate at 246 MHZ.

    Because of the parts list description, I am of the opinion that it was
    a DUAL circuit. That is, 6 vacuum tubes and one 1/4" diameter 3" rod
    along with assorted resistors were to pick up and "pump" ONLY the
    positive going signals, while the other 6 vacuum tubes, rod and
    resistors did the same for the negative going signals. Such a scheme
    could either use PARALLEL or SERIAL connections of the vacuum tubes.
    Since current conduction is proportional to surface area, one would
    think that a parallel arrangement of the 70L7-GT rectifier beam power
    tubes with all INPUTS connected to one antenna source and all OUTPUTS
    connected to a common terminal attached to the load, would provide for
    the MAXIMUM current flow from incoming energy waves.

    The nature of these "energy waves" is the question here. Are they
    cosmic rays, electrostatic, Schumann peaks, magnetic force, something
    "other" or Aether flow into the neutral centers of mass as per Keely.

    Vacuum tube construction takes several forms. Of these, the simplest
    is two plates separated by a grid wire. When the bottom plate is
    heated, thermally induced ions (thermionic emissions) are emitted by
    the bottom plate. The grid can be biased by the application of voltage
    to increase, decrease or halt the flow of these ions to the upper
    plate.

    Other forms include more plates with more grids to allow better
    control of the ion flow. By proper biasing, vacuum tubes can be
    operated as switches, modulators or amplifiers among other uses.

    Vacuum tubes operate primarily with high voltages that control the ion
    flows. Modern transistors are equivalent to vacuum tubes except that
    they operate using CURRENT instead of voltage. Transistors equate to
    Vacuum tubes by the following comparisons :

    Vacuum Tube Transistor Polarity
    Operates from Voltage Current
    lower plate emitter negative - cathode
    grid base neutral
    upper plate collector positive - anode


    In the case of the Tesla Power Box, the vacuum tube appears to
    function as a "pump", collecting incoming current in the form of ion
    intensification. Once this "compressed" ion field reaches a certain
    density, the pump allows it to be released into the next stage of the
    circuit, be it the actual load or another vacuum tube.

    So if the circuit is 6 vacuum tubes in parallel, all fed from a common
    antenna, outputting to a common load terminal, then the common antenna
    input would feed all vacuum tubes with the same wave. This would give
    the greatest CURRENT accumulation because of the EXPANDED SURFACE AREA
    of the paralleled tubes.

    Note, these vacuum tubes most likely operate in the "cold cathode"
    mode since the heaters of the vacuum tubes were not fed by any outside
    voltage to provide the heat for the more orthodox therionic emission.

    If the vacuum tubes are hooked in series, then one "pump" would feed
    another "pump" to get successively higher densities of electrons. This
    would give higher VOLTAGES because of increased PRESSURE.

    Keep in mind that electricity is much like air or water. We can think
    of voltage as pounds per square inch (PSI) and current as cubic feet
    per minute (CFM). That is PSI is pressure, CFM is flow.

    Another analog is comparing a river to electricity. In such a
    comparison, the speed of the river is the VOLTAGE or pressure while
    the width of the river is the CURRENT or rate of flow.

    Such a comparison shows WHY current requires THE GREATEST SURFACE AREA
    for the maximum flow. Fuses function on just this principle, when the
    current flows over the surface of the fuse, it creates heat. If too
    much current flows, it creates too much heat causing the fuse to melt
    and separate. The more surface area the fuse, the greater the amount
    of current can flow, another reason to not place a penny in a fuse
    socket.

    So we have two antennas (1/4" diameter, 3" long rods), two sets of 6
    vacuum tubes connected together by wire and assorted resistors. As the
    waves of energy are collected by the 3" rods, positive on one,
    negative on another, the energy builds up in the form of increased
    ions in each of the paralleled vacuum tubes. As in Moray's generator,
    the circuit will feed whatever load is attached as long as it does not
    EXCEED the current carrying capacity of the circuit components. What
    we have is an energy pumping system.

    I made a drawing of the box with some idea of the circuit. My
    electronics knowledge is on IC's and transistors with almost nothing
    in regard to vacuum tubes so there won't be much technical concept of
    the circuit per se. Perhaps after some study, either I or someone else
    will come up with some testable or useable circuits.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The Parallel Version

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Serial Version

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    TESLAFE1.HTM - original articles

    TESLCAR.HTM - another viewpoint

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  2. Baphomet

    Baphomet Guest

    As far as I am aware, nobody to this day has been able to figure out, no
    less duplicate, how Tesla did what he did. Teaming with Westinghouse
    Electric, he is also responsible for the A.C. generator, beating Edison at
    his own game of D.C. power generation.

    I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors and please keep this newsgroup
    informed as to your progress.
     
  3. John Fields

    John Fields Guest

    ---
    For starters,

    f = v/w

    where f = frequency in Hertz (cycles per second)
    v = velocity of propagation in meters per second.
    w = wavelength in meters

    For 3" rods operating as full wave resonators,

    f = v/w = 3.0E9 meters per second / 7.62E-2 meters ~ 3.94E10 Hz.

    That's 3.94 GIGA Hertz, quite a bit higher than your 246 MEGA Hertz.


    Also, you say:

    I can't think of a single instance where a vacuum tube is is used to
    control the flow of ions internal to its structure, unless you want to
    consider an electron an ion missing the rest of its atomic structure
    instead of the currently accepted vice-versa definition. Moreover, in
    (arguably) the most common (common-cathode) configuration, the grid
    voltage used to control the plate current is not at all high. Easy to
    verify, just look in any tube databook.

    The rest of your "exposition" is similarly flawed (Watts is watts, and
    100 watts dissipated here will release the same amount of heat as 100
    watts dissipated anywhere else.) and largely hearsay, so it's hard to
    believe. Do you have any hard data upon which you can build a solid
    platform to make your conjecture a little less tenuous?
     
  4. Fred Abse

    Fred Abse Guest

    What about a thyratron?
     
  5. Fred Abse

    Fred Abse Guest

    Bullshit.

    Power out = (power in - losses) irrespective of whether it's DC, single
    phase AC, three phase AC, six phase AC or whatever.

    Given the same efficiency, a three phase motor will consume the same
    power as a single phase motor of the same rating, loaded the same.


    FFS go learn some AC theory!
     
  6. John Fields

    John Fields Guest

    ---
    I don't think so, in that a thyratron isn't a vacuum tube in the strict
    sense since it's evacuated and then backfilled with a gas. The gas is
    put in there to provide a ready source of electrons which can be used
    for the purpose at hand, but the gas _does_ have to be ionized for it to
    happen, so you make a good point.

    Similarly, There are also all those ion lasers I forgot about, but I
    think in both cases it's the electrons that are doing the work, as
    opposed to the ions.
     
  7. --------------
    Total anti-scientific bullshit lies meant to attract nut-money and
    steal people's retirements who don't know better.

    -----------------------
    They are lies.

    -----------------
    Thermionic emission does NOT produce "ions" just because the word
    contains '-ion".

    ----------------
    Tubes don't work from "ion flow".

    -----------------
    Lying garbage.

     
  8. Rick

    Rick Guest

    Are you trying to say you doubt the validity of some of this?

    Sorry, I couldn't resist ;-)

    Rick.
     
  9. John Larkin

    John Larkin Guest

    You *don't* think a dozen 70L7's in a shoe box will run an 80HP AC
    motor? My, but you are skeptical.

    John
     
  10. Don Kelly

    Don Kelly Guest

    --------
    Strike 1. If the bulb was cool, it is because it wasn't dissipating much
    light energy. If it was receiving 100 watts it would dissipate 100 watts and
    be hot.
    ----------------
    ---------
    Strike 2. Hysteresis is a factor where iron cored coils are used -it is not
    a case of "interfering magnetic fields" causing heating. It is a non-linear
    problem and causes heating in iron cores, not the coils.
    ----------
    --------
    Strike 3 batter 1 out - what interfering field? you have nothing to indicate
    that such occurs. However, since the device had both coils and capacitors,
    it could be retuned to account for inductive loads.
    --------------
    ---------------
    strike 1. batter 2 - items 1 and 3 above will not make a resonant circuit.
    ------------
    ----------
    strike 2 batter 2 No coils, no capacitances, but resonance? Can you handle
    EM theory better than circuit theory?
    ---------
    --------------
    Strike 2 second batter- single phase motors have a pulsating field and
    require a means of starting- generally another winding which is phase
    shifted. Only after being started will a single phase motor operate- I will
    not go into the "why" here.
    ---------------------
    -------------
    strike 3- batter 2 out - A polyphase motor does not have 3 times the current
    of a single phase motor or use 3 times the input energy for the same output.
    If its input is 3 times that of the single phase motor, its output power
    will be at least 3 times as much. Please try to compare apples with
    apples.
    -----------
    ---------
    Strike 1 batter 3 -Polyphase frequencies??? Do you mean 3 different
    frequencies or somehow, just the right differential phase shift as seen at
    each "antenna"?
    -------------
    --------------
    strike 2 batter 3 -As pointed out by John Fields who has done his
    calculations correctly, your frequency calculation is out to lunch by a
    large factor (try 984,000,000/0.25).
    ----------
    strike 3 batter 3 Have you any idea of what 246MHz (much less 4GHz) would
    do applied to a conventional AC motor? Just supposing that it could run the
    motor, note that the speed is frequency dependent so an 1800 rpm 60Hz motor
    (4 pole) at 246MHz would be a sight to see in the brief interval before it
    became schrapnel. There is no worry about that as the motor would simply
    ignore the RF.

    Side retired - on the basis of nonsense statements. Remainder snipped.
     
  11. KeelyNet isn't the most reliable source you could have
    chosen...
    I don't think Jerry's gonna sue you, but you really ought
    to look up "plagiarism".

    I've seen this article all over the Net and I still wanna
    know one thing about it; what's the ORIGINAL SOURCE? It's
    allegedly from a newspaper article, but what paper?

    Mark L. Fergerson
     
  12. The Captain

    The Captain Guest



    You know John, I must admit that I didn't read the original entry in
    this thread in its entirety because my mind was being boggled by one
    inaccuracy and physical impossibility after another.

    In short, if there is an explanation for Tesls's electric car, it's
    not this one.

    You know, if Tesla was somehow using SHF power transmission to power
    his car, one has to wonder what the effects on his own biology were.
    We worry about mobile phones at much lower powers, but this must have
    been like sitting in the near field of a tropo scatter transmitter!
    Anyone know if Telsa suffered from wierd ailments?

    However, that said, if the car worked, there must be an explanation
    which IS physically possible. Whether it is usable or not is another
    question entirely. As an example of the physically possible but
    unusable; cooking eggs by beaming microwaves across the kitchen at
    them. The eggs won't be the only things to cook!

    I strongly suspect that if the car could be reconstructed today and
    made to work, the environmental and biologicval hazzards associated
    with it would make a lot of tort lawyers very happy. I could be
    entirely wrong though, and Tesla may have had the answer to clean
    motoring way back then.

    However, you'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't invest in any company
    formed to exploit this idea.

    John (other John)
     
  13. Fred Abse

    Fred Abse Guest

    In later life, Tesla *was* a weird ailment :)
     
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