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Surge protectors?

J

Jay1028

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have moved to a location (Florida) where surges are a concern. I
have been looking at two candidates for surge protection at the point
of use (outlet).
The two candiidates are:

Power Sentry 100344 -- which says it will disconnect the load if
surge is sensed to be more than 2ms

Panamax M4T-EX which is MOV based from a highly rated company.

I have a whole house MOV based protector by LEA at the load center and
want to do more. Maybe more is better? I don't know.

Anyone used a system that they know works? There is so much info out
there that you don't which is an good.

I'm not sure if this is the correct group for this question either.

Thanks,
Jay
 
S

sparky

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have moved to a location (Florida) where surges are a concern. I
have been looking at two candidates for surge protection at the point
of use (outlet).
The two candiidates are:

Power Sentry 100344 -- which says it will disconnect the load if
surge is sensed to be more than 2ms

Panamax M4T-EX which is MOV based from a highly rated company.

I have a whole house MOV based protector by LEA at the load center and
want to do more. Maybe more is better? I don't know.

Anyone used a system that they know works? There is so much info out
there that you don't which is an good.

I'm not sure if this is the correct group for this question either.

Thanks,
Jay

Panamax and Leviton devices are good surge protectors. Do not believe
everything you read about some device shutting off the surge in 2ms.
If you are talking about a lightning strike close by then NO surge
suppressor will completely elimate the problem 100% of the time.
 
J

Jay1028

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am specifically talking about surges generated out on the power
lines on the poles propogating into my home. I realize that nothing
can stop a direct lighning hit. I have three ground rods spaced at
10ft apart joined at the center one with 6ga bare copper. I have read
not to create a ground loop by having different ground locations, so
besides what the builder had done with a piece of rebar embedded in
the concrete and one ground rod, I added three more. The 6ga run to
the meter and the load center behind it is about a 6 foot run.

I next have to find a surge supressor for the cable coming into the
house. I opened the box mounted on the outside wall near the power
entry and there is just a grouning block in there. Nothing good to
say about the cable installation.

Jay
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jay1028 said:
I am specifically talking about surges generated out on the power
lines on the poles propogating into my home. I realize that nothing
can stop a direct lighning hit. I have three ground rods spaced at
10ft apart joined at the center one with 6ga bare copper. I have read
not to create a ground loop by having different ground locations, so
besides what the builder had done with a piece of rebar embedded in
the concrete and one ground rod, I added three more. The 6ga run to
the meter and the load center behind it is about a 6 foot run.

I next have to find a surge supressor for the cable coming into the
house. I opened the box mounted on the outside wall near the power
entry and there is just a grouning block in there. Nothing good to
say about the cable installation.

Jay


Were those ground rods tested for ground resistance? How deep are
they, and what part of the state are you in? There are a lot of
different soil conditions in different parts of Florida. We had to have
85 feet of ground rod driven before we passed the test in northern Lake
County about 20 years ago. It was about three feet short of length of
the well pipe.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
J

Jay1028

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rods are 8ft, 5/8" galvanized with bronze clamps.. I Live in
northeast Florida near Marineland.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jay1028 said:
I am specifically talking about surges generated out on the power
lines on the poles propogating into my home.

'Generated out on the power lines' ????

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael A. Terrell said:
Were those ground rods tested for ground resistance? How deep are
they, and what part of the state are you in? There are a lot of
different soil conditions in different parts of Florida. We had to have
85 feet of ground rod driven before we passed the test in northern Lake
County about 20 years ago. It was about three feet short of length of
the well pipe.

Fortunately in the UK, the power company supplies the ground connection. That
saves a lot of such bother.

Graham
 
C

Cockamamie Khomeini

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jay1028 said:
I am specifically talking about surges generated out on the power
lines on the poles propogating into my home. I realize that nothing
can stop a direct lighning hit. I have three ground rods spaced at
10ft apart joined at the center one with 6ga bare copper. I have read
not to create a ground loop by having different ground locations, so
besides what the builder had done with a piece of rebar embedded in
the concrete and one ground rod, I added three more. The 6ga run to
the meter and the load center behind it is about a 6 foot run.

I next have to find a surge supressor for the cable coming into the
house. I opened the box mounted on the outside wall near the power
entry and there is just a grouning block in there. Nothing good to
say about the cable installation.

Jay

Just buy a small generator and run it with an electric motor. That will
smooth out surges.
 
H

HapticZ

Jan 1, 1970
0
copper cage your home, generate ur own power, no surges!

go all solar, go all wind, get some treadmills and put the kids/you to work

if you must protect from power company "events" as they call them, then get
uself an "event" monitoring system/meter/recorder.

then when your appliances/other get toasted, deliver the power company a
hefty bill for their replacement/repair along with a recording of the
"event" on paper

get a neighborhood group together to get a regional event monitor, then
everyone can submit bills on a regular basis.

if you need pure reliable energy, ask the electric utility company to
provide u with special xmission lines right to your own house as special
treatment

or even better, dont use power (be 'green') :-D
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rods are 8ft, 5/8" galvanized with bronze clamps.. I Live in
northeast Florida near Marineland.

First, even effective surge protectors do not stop typically
destructive surges. One that implies protection forgets to mention it
protects from surges that typically don't damage - surges that don't
overwhelm protection already in all appliances.

Second, an effective protector acts like a switch; connects surges
to earth. Surges that may be inside or outside the building. The surge
that typically does damage is called lightning. We install effective
protectors to earth lightning; divert to earth before that surge can
enter a building.

What determines the effectiveness of that 'whole house' protector?
Quality of earthing and connection to earthing.

What is the Panamax going to do? Do you believe it will divert a
surge to the same earth ground? If a surge did not obtain earth
ground via a 'whole house' protector, then why would it obtain the
same earth ground path via a low quality path (from Panamax)? Just
another reason why the Panamax does not discuss earthing and does not
claim to protect from the type of surge that typically causes damage.
Read its numeric specs. Notice the Panamax does not even list which
type of surges it protects from. Otherwise you might learn it does
not protect from surges that typically destroy electronics.

Third, somehow is this assumption that a surge protector is
protection. A surge protector is simply a connecting device to
protection. Protection is that earth ground. How do you increase
protection? Enhance that earthing.

50 million protectors will not improve what that one (properly
sized) 'whole house' protector will accomplish. Enhancing may
significantly increase protection. But then even geology has not been
defined. More important than half truths from Panamax is information
such as geology.

Meanwhile, where does that Panamax even discuss earthing? It does
not because it does not even claim to protect from surges that
typically damage household appliances. No earth ground means no
effective protection.

Finally, don't waste money on solutions that don't even claim to
protect from typically destructive surges. Put that money into what
defines the quality of your protection. Detailed description of how
earth ground works for surge protection is in
comp.sys.mac.comm on 4 Jul 2007 entitled "DSL speed" at
http://tinyurl.com/2gbgef
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
I next have to find a surge supressor for the cable coming into the
house. I opened the box mounted on the outside wall near the power
entry and there is just a grouning block in there. Nothing good to
say about the cable installation.

Again you are assuming a protector will somehow stop surges. If the
cable has the best surge protection, then it has only a ground block
($2 in Lowes), a short wire connection to earth ground (see other post
for the many factors absolutely required for that connection), and a
single point earth ground as Michael Terrell discusses.

Remember, no protector is protection. A protector is nothing more
than a connecting device to protection. Protection is earthing. What
defines quality of protection? Single point earthing. What is the
only component that each protection 'system' requires? Single point
earth ground. See details cited in that other post; a significant
amount of reading.

Those who have little concept of surge protection, instead, believe
magic protector boxes will somehow stop what three miles of sky could
not. Cable needs no protector. Protectors may even degrade TV and
internet signals. Your protection is only as good as your single
point earth ground. Repeated many times because so many have problems
admitting a retail store salesman or half truths on boxes were lies.
 
J

Jay1028

Jan 1, 1970
0
I like Hapticz post. Don't use the power company at all. I have read
all the IEEE and NIST info and it looks like I am doing what I can to
make the earthing as good as I can, I may be supporting all the hocus
pocus that the surge protector companies put out by buying some of
their products, but al least I am doing a lot a reading and making a
somewhat educated decision on what to buy.

The whole house device is my best bet and I'll just have to be
dependent on the clamping feature provided by the point of use
devices. I'll spend a couple of hundred doillars on devices that may
or may not save my equipment, but I figure it is better than doing
nothing.
 
D

davidlaska

Jan 1, 1970
0
Panamax and Leviton devices are good surge protectors. Do not believe
everything you read about some device shutting off the surge in 2ms.
If you are talking about a lightning strike close by then NO surge
suppressor will completely elimate the problem 100% of the time.

I agree with 100%. I live near the coast in southern California. We
get an overhead thunderstorm one a year. I had a UPS (15 years ago)
while working on my computer near a window. A lightning struck a pole
a few hundred yards away and the computer when down.
I restarted and my hard drive was not readable. I had to use norton
utilities (Mac) to recover all my from the drive and reformat it. The
drive failed a while later.

Now for the things I only heard about:
I have heard that your basic plug in "surge protectors" are not worth
the extra money. I think having a grounded system is the first matter
to be dealt with if the build has none (three pronged plugs).
 
D

davidlaska

Jan 1, 1970
0
Were those ground rods tested for ground resistance? How deep are
they, and what part of the state are you in? There are a lot of
different soil conditions in different parts of Florida. We had to have
85 feet of ground rod driven before we passed the test in northern Lake
County about 20 years ago. It was about three feet short of length of
the well pipe.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

I new the average was 4' to 6' so I thought adding a few more would
cover it all. I never thought one would have to go 85', now I will
get a professional to install a rod for serious matters.

Thanks
 
D

davidlaska

Jan 1, 1970
0
Just buy a small generator and run it with an electric motor. That will
smooth out surges.

--

Cockamamie Khomeini

Leader of the known (Islamic) world.

That's funny but it works. I guess the reason it does is because the
continuous duty motor does not react surges. I never hear my table
saw wind up suddenly, but my vacuum does if something else is
unplugged.
I thought my laptop would be protected if I had a 7amp battery run my
laptop while the same battery was being charged with a regular "plug
in the wall charger". I was told that it would not work as a surge
protector.
 
L

Leonard Caillouet

Jan 1, 1970
0
What type of equipment are you protecting?

My experience is that the Panamax units are very good and very effective.
We use them on nearly every system we install, here in north central
Florida, which sees more lightning than most areas in the US. We rarely see
any system damage on properly installed units. This means that all incoming
signal lines in addition to power are connected through the surge
suppressor, all incoming lines are grounded according to code, and the
elsectrical service ground is intact and effective. We DO see system damage
when cable installers disconnect the cable line from the surge suppressor,
however, which leads me to believe that the signal lines are critical to
protection. The whole house suppression probably does not address this.

Leonard
 
G

GregS

Jan 1, 1970
0
Were those ground rods tested for ground resistance? How deep are
they, and what part of the state are you in? There are a lot of
different soil conditions in different parts of Florida. We had to have
85 feet of ground rod driven before we passed the test in northern Lake
County about 20 years ago. It was about three feet short of length of
the well pipe.

I never even heard of a test. I guess in some areas they don't worry about it.
You would think Florida would be pretty good conductivity compared to
most other areas. Most or all homes around me have a ground on the water pipe comming
into the house. Its a good ground, but the outside rods must be at the box. It
could span the distance of the house.
If you have standard telephone, don't forget to protect the incomming line.
Whatever you get, make use of the insurance. If its such a problem, I would have
the electric company install the device. I can "rent" a device by them at some extra expense.

greg
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
GregS said:
I never even heard of a test. I guess in some areas they don't worry about it.
You would think Florida would be pretty good conductivity compared to
most other areas. Most or all homes around me have a ground on the water pipe comming
into the house. Its a good ground, but the outside rods must be at the box. It
could span the distance of the house.
If you have standard telephone, don't forget to protect the incomming line.
Whatever you get, make use of the insurance. If its such a problem, I would have
the electric company install the device. I can "rent" a device by them at some extra expense.



The test was the ability to blow one of the old screw in 15 amp
household fuses. Sure, the well casing is grounded, but they are rarely
anywhere near the electrical service. Our well was over 100 feet from
the pole pig, and meter. Would you bet your life on a single #12 AWG
safety ground? I wouldn't. The ground rod was at the meter, and had to
be driven 85 feet, before it would blow the fuse.

Some areas of Florida are sugar sand, with VERY poor conductivity.
Lake county is one of those areas. 50 years ago, the sandy land was
used to grow oranges, and had very few residents.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Central Florida is the
lightning capital of the United States. Its quite common for a storm to
have over 3000 recorded strikes, per hour. Systems that are adequate in
safer areas just aren't good enough in a place like this. I have had
battery powered equipment explode from the EMP when a bolt hit the
marsh, 25 feet behind my shop. I had the CRT video dries blown on a VGA
monitor that was not only disconnected, but the video cable was wrapped
around the base of the monitor. I was resetting my computer desk, and
had just disconnected it when the storm hit. Hours later, after the
electricity came back on I had no monitor, or mouse.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
. We DO see system damage when cable installers disconnect the
cable line from the surge suppressor, however, which leads me to
believe that the signal lines are critical to protection. The whole
house suppression probably does not address this.

Any protector that does not make a short connection to earth ground
does what? Earthing that surge destructively elsewhere such as
through the adjacent appliance. Any protection that works at the
appliance is already inside the appliance. New standards mean that
signal lines must withstand even 15,000 volts without damage. Yes
that few volt signal line must also not be damaged by 2,000 and 15,000
volts

So we earth that surge before it even enters the building - does not
get near to signal lines.

Did damage exist? That says little about the protector and says
nothing about a plug-in protector. That damage says a surge was
permitted inside the building to maybe overwhelm protection inside
signal lines.

How does the telephone company with signal lines everywhere inside
their building not suffer computer damage? Every wire is properly
earthed either by a direct earthing connection or via a 'whole house'
type protector. Why is telephone service not down for four days every
year while they replace that computer? Why can that computer suffer
one hundred surges during every thunderstorm and not suffer damage?
They don't use grossly overpriced Panamax or Monster Cable products.
Instead they spend less money on more effective 'whole house' type
protectors and they enhance that single point earthing. How is the
protection made even better? They install even better earth grounds.

Did a surge enter on cable TV wire? Then how was that cable
earthed. Installing a Panamax on that cable TV wire is even not
recommended by the cable company for the same reasons that early 20th
Century Ham radio operators finally stopped surges. Will the Panamax
absorb surges?

The Panamax does not even claim to protect from type of surges that
typically cause electronics damage. Those who recommend that Panamax
routinely ignore that reality. Good reason why Panamax does not make
that claim. No dedicated earthing wire. No earth ground means no
effective protection.

Meanwhile, smoke detectors also were not routinely damaged during
surges. Is that because smoke detectors are connected to invisible
protectors? No. If something is undamaged with a Panamax proves
nothing since other appliances also are not damaged - and have no
Panamax. Damning is that the Panamax does not even claim to protect
from that type of surge.
 
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